2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 22, 2013 20:09:19 GMT -5
Over the years I have acquired a large batch of burlap sand bags. At last count I had well over 300 of them. The plan of course was to use them in support of large events and indeed in the past I have done so. usually they get hauled to the event, some get filled and laid out to good effect but never to the degree I had hoped. Once used they usually got left.
Back East a group I was affiliated with purchased perhaps 600 or more sandbags and went out to GZA in Conneticut the week before their NAM game and with a rented trencher and backhoe created a decent little firebase with perhaps a half dozen laborers. The camp really didn't look like much until the troops arrived and went about making themselves at home. They actually seemed to enjoy filling the sand bags. As a retired Infantryman I found that quite humorous but I suppose it felt emmersive. The end result was impressive. Unfortunately within a few short years the bags rotted and the camp ceased being much of a showcase. It was good for perhaps three events. I remember seeing one young player with a pocket knife gouging the bags and wondered what possesed him to be so destructive and unthinking? Hmmmmm? No appreciation for the expense and efforts of others.
Back to my bags and my recent epiphany. Sand bags are a lot of work to fill, and really, really heavy. Too much work to fill for each event and way to much work to lug back and forth. Even when bought in bulk they add up in dollars. Someone suggested filling them with sawdust instead of sand which would reduce their weight and indeed I have done that on simulated towers. The local Military vehicle club in the past has filled a bunch with the packing foam turds but found you needed a little weight in the bag so they centered a ziplock bag of sand inside. This worked reasonably well and they use that approach to quickly enhance static displays.
Along those lines my idea came to me as my wife and I were cleaning out my office and realized I had hundreds upon hundreds of workbooks and unused participant guides that needed to be thrown out and stacks of no longer needed files and reports that needed to be shredded. As we cranked out the two shredders we produced grocery bag upon grocery bag of shredded paper. Hmmmmmmm? Obviously that could fill sand bags quite nicely but it would be too exposed to the weather (even inside the burlap). I went out and made a bulk purchase a small but heavy duty garbage bags about half the size of the lawn bags. I stuffed these with the shredded paper squeazing them down so all the air was out and they were fairly dense. I stuffed them into the burlap bags and tied them off.
In one afternoon (today in fact) I had 200 "sandbags" filled. They lay about right and stack as they should. They weight very little but enough to hold their position and lay as they should. Certainly they look correct and will stop BBs. They can be arranged and rearranged quickly so once I have perhaps 500 of them my options become pretty versatile. I can stack them along one wall in the garage and that alone is impressive without taking up too much space.
I find on flat ground about thirty to fourty bags is all that is needed for a decent looking two man bunker. (Four rows high) covering three sides. If a shallow hole were dug before hand so much the better. The possibilities are endless. Obviously at an event its still desireable to have folks fill some sandbags with real dirt but with my approach a trailer full can be hauled to and from the event and set up however you'd like, quite effortlessly. Because they aren't left to the elements they should last a long time.
I'll take pictures of my end results when the weather clears enough to arrange a display in my backyard. It's raining today so no sense setting something up and storing wet musty burlap in my garage if I don't have to.
It would be fabulous to have a couple thousand of them but now I'm dreaming!
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Post by SfcMigs on Feb 22, 2013 21:28:23 GMT -5
I just bought 200 burlap bags for the Hurtgen Forest Event. I am so appreciative by your insightful idea. I was prepared to leave them at the site, thus always having to re-purchase them. This way makes it east for transport and installation.
Great Idea!!!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 23, 2013 0:43:29 GMT -5
There is no doubt you could get bags upon bags of shreaded documents from local busineses assuming they were confident in your intent. When you pack them into your inner plastic bags pack them fairly densely for the correct effect and be sure your inner plastic bags will be sealed sufficiently that moisture won't seep into the paper. Both my shredders fill a typical kitchen garbage can size bucket and this size once packed from the shredder then sqeazes down to the right density. A great deal of time and mess is saved by lining this bucket with your lawn bag before you run the shredder. The bag will seem way too big to fit inside a sandbag and indeed it is but it packs in at about the weight you want and packs down nicely when setting up your bunker walls. Again be usre the air is all out before sqeazing it all down so you don't "Pop" your inner bag.
Because the weight is so low you could create overhead cover without significant materials or bracing. I'm anxious to get some pictures taken and posted.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Feb 23, 2013 13:13:17 GMT -5
This is a great idea thanks so much for sharing.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 23, 2013 13:53:09 GMT -5
I remember seeing a museum display that had a back ground wall in burlap sandbags and will replicate it on an interior garage wall. Mine of course will be removable and simply stored there.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 28, 2013 2:02:50 GMT -5
A couple discoveries as I have done another 50 bags today. Quality magazines make great shred fodder as the paper itself is coated and a bit more dense. It takes only about six or seven magazines once shredded to fill a sandbag. The shredders that cross cut are best as the shredders that leave long skinny strips don't seem to "lay" as nicely. Once properly filled your sand bag will weigh in at around four or five pounds. That compares quite nicely to the forty to fifty pounds a real sandbag wighs or the 25 pounds a sandbag filled with dry sawdust will weigh.
The sandbags i have are a treated burlap and come with their own ties. When creating bunkers or fighting positions five rows high is about all you get if you want your structure to be relatively stable. For a bunker with a roof you can go about six high as the weight of your overhead cover provides stability to the "sandbag walls and helps to keep them in place. For an eight by 10 bunker with sandbag walls on three complete sides and sandbag covered roof and one view slit on each side wall and two slots (or one long one in the front) requires about 120 sandbags. You'll want to use some planking above your gun slits and across your roof and you'll want to cover the roof and back wall in tarp or canvas. (I use shelter half sections). Without this the folks inside are too visible to the enemy. It also makes for a nice shelter suitable for two quite comfortably. My goal ultimately is to have enough prepared pseudo sandbags to construct a small firebase or a couple cool objectives.
To accomplish that I will need a couple thousand sandbags. Uhg!!!!! I have stacked what I have produced so far and the stack covers one whole wall to the ceiling in my garage. I think it looks cool and its a nice backdrop for my Jeep.
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Post by thomasc on Feb 28, 2013 15:07:45 GMT -5
That is really impressive and it sounds like a great idea. Being able to move them so easily is a big deal.
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Post by newcomer on Feb 28, 2013 16:35:34 GMT -5
loving the sound of these paper bags, if you could, it would be nice to see a few pictures. Part of me wants to try this out now!
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Post by Rekkon on Mar 6, 2013 11:26:41 GMT -5
This sounds like a great solution. I remember thinking the sawdust sandbags were a good idea when we attended a New York event back in 2008. That night's downpour quickly highlighted the drawbacks though. Since then we have seen the same issues with dirt filled bags not lasting long and the packing peanut route being little more than cosmetic. I suppose the only problem now is that a large number of sandbags will take up a lot of volume to transport.
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Post by SfcMigs on Mar 6, 2013 14:20:18 GMT -5
This sounds like a great solution. I remember thinking the sawdust sandbags were a good idea when we attended a New York event back in 2008. That night's downpour quickly highlighted the drawbacks though. Since then we have seen the same issues with dirt filled bags not lasting long and the packing peanut route being little more than cosmetic. I suppose the only problem now is that a large number of sandbags will take up a lot of volume to transport. That's exactly what I'm facing now. I recently purchased 200 bags that I plan on using at my next event. I love this idea, but transporting them will be difficult to do. Either way, pack them first or bring them unfilled and pack them at the field is still problematic. Because I have to bring the shredded paper/packing as well! so 6 or half dozen as they say. Maybe I'll insert airtight plastic bags and inflate them at the field? I do have a battery powered portal air pump. Might just work. Sounds like it's time to hit the lab and experiment. Stay tuned.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 6, 2013 18:02:40 GMT -5
Remember that these need some weight and internal stuffing that lays like dirt or sand. The foam filled ones are simply too light and don't compress as they should. The air filled approach sounds good but I doubt it will create the desired effect. I recognize that hauling these to an event will require a rented trailer or panel truck but we typically find we need to rent one anyway. Incredibly two decent sized bunkers with overhead cover (300 pre filled sandbags) can fit in my Mazda Tribute with a cargo carrier and the passenger seat full. Obviouly if they were actual sand filled bags that would be a no go.
Even a gardners trailer could lug. Bunch of them although they will need to be tarp covered lest they fly out.
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Post by SfcMigs on Mar 7, 2013 0:05:09 GMT -5
I plan on tinkering with the air filled idea over the next week or so. I understand the weight factor and I'll play around with that as well. But the idea of being able to inflate, then deflate the bags for transport is worth the effort.
Wish me luck.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Mar 7, 2013 22:05:57 GMT -5
Helium is the answer at the very least you will laugh your ass off as the bunker floats away.
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Post by SfcMigs on Mar 7, 2013 22:18:38 GMT -5
Helium is the answer at the very least you will laugh your ass off as the bunker floats away. Good one. Or we can inhale the helium and all talk funny ;D ;D ;D
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Post by CharleyNovember on Mar 8, 2013 1:55:43 GMT -5
What about inflating a buttered pplastic bag inside and then covering the burlap bag in plaster of paris. Let it dry and it should have a hardened shell and still be light enough to move easily.
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Post by Rekkon on Mar 8, 2013 10:14:36 GMT -5
Helium is the answer at the very least you will laugh your ass off as the bunker floats away. Air pirates!
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Post by brownien on Mar 8, 2013 12:57:31 GMT -5
Could do a sandbag with say a handful of sand or two, and then put the inflatable bag in with it to add some shape to it. Not sure how stable they would be to stack though.
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Post by SfcMigs on Mar 8, 2013 13:55:43 GMT -5
Could do a sandbag with say a handful of sand or two, and then put the inflatable bag in with it to add some shape to it. Not sure how stable they would be to stack though. that's exactly what I'm trying to do Brownien! Great minds!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 8, 2013 16:57:39 GMT -5
The expense of whatever materials would be required would concern me. Even the cheapest valves and the effort needed to install them and set it all up sounds a bit daunting although if they worked, once done it would be a cool way to go.
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Post by brownien on Mar 8, 2013 17:04:10 GMT -5
If you could find some real cheap beachballs in bulk, that may work! Plus then theres always something to do in a lul in the fighting.......beach party! ;D
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Post by Abbot on Mar 11, 2013 12:32:45 GMT -5
Where could I buy some WWII-looking sandbags? I'm really liking this idea!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 11, 2013 14:30:51 GMT -5
Sfc migs had a great source that he posted with a link. I got mine from a local surplus store but there is also a seller who is consistently on ebay. Remember that for ww2 the bags were still burlap. By vietnam the green poly bags started showing up
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Post by SfcMigs on Mar 11, 2013 19:26:43 GMT -5
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 11, 2013 22:30:42 GMT -5
That's about half what i was able to find so a real good deal.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 26, 2013 2:43:50 GMT -5
I used these at RECONDO School last summer to create visual effects around the camp and they worked out real well. I obviously need to find the time and energy to fill a bunch more as they provide tremendous flexibility and are extremely easy to deal with. They do take up a bunch of space when the time comes to haul them but in the garage i have them double stacked against one wall and they are kind of outta the way while still looking cool. I have enough on hand for three, covered two man bunkers. I want to eventually have about three times that many sufficient to support larger events. The interior plastic bags holding the shredded paper kept the filler dry following a light rain and while my garage smelled a bit of damp burlap it all dried fine with no mildew that I am aware of.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 19, 2015 20:19:32 GMT -5
Another thought here which I have considered (but never executed) is to build several bunkers from thin plywood cutting them so each wall tapers in slightly toward the top. With the four walls attached they form an inward sloping box like the base a pyramid. Build them so they are 3 to 4 feet high. Cut in gun slots and a small entry door in the rear wall. Cut a roof shaped to cover your bunker and assemble the four sides and roof with metal brackets screwed into place. Sze wise I was thinking in terms of two man positions? This bunker could be textured painted to look like concrete or... For a sandbagged look ... Glue Two inch thick poly foam could be glued into place creating a brick like surface covering all the plywood surfaces. These foam "bricks should be roughly 14 inches long and five inches tall. Create about a 1 to 1 1/2 inch gap between the foam "bricks" Once the walls and roof are covered in your foam bricks, lay burlap over the walls and roof and staple the burlap into place using the gapped seams so the burlap will make the bunker walls and roof appear to be stacks of sandbags. Overlap and staple the burlap onto the inside and if desired continue the effect on the inside surfaces although I see this as not essential.
These "pyramid base, sloped in, four sided bunkers could be placed on the ground as is or better still placed over shallow dug holes. They would be ideal with roofs but would look okay as simple open topped bunker walls. because of their inward sloped walls they could be stacked on top of one another requiring less space for storage. they would look good, even fairly close up but would be light weight enough to easily emplace or move about on the battlefield for assorted scenarios. Two or three of them could create an impressive defensive line and of course they would create adequate protection for airsoft defenders. Five of them could provide corner bunkers for a pentagonal fire base. A center tower with command bunker and you have an impressive strongpoint.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Feb 20, 2015 16:53:29 GMT -5
Pics from 2ndBat
These next pictures support the posts about my pseudo sandbags. These are kitchen bags stuffed with shredded paper and then inserted into sandbags. They weight about 4 pounds each. They can easily be moved around to create prop bunkers and fighting positions. This is my NERF 57mm recoiless rifle in a fighting position. These pseudo sandbags can also be arranged to create covered full on bunkers and a couple bunkers with some additional barrier props can create awesome strongpoints or roadblocks / objectives. Which help create realistic scenarios for action blocks. 2nd Bat
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 14, 2015 9:37:13 GMT -5
Time for more pics from 2ndBat!
I managed to find some wooden ammo boxes at a decent price ($7.00 each) and bought all they had. (18 of them) Together with some of my shredded paper filled sandbags they create a credible bunker. In vietnam the ammo boxes were double or triple thick and filled with dirt but for airsoft no such need! With a tarp covering the backside these mini bunkers look pretty good.
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