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Post by SfcMigs on Apr 30, 2013 9:49:06 GMT -5
Based on the recent decrease in numbers and lack of support, I feel it necessary to open this thread to a discussion about what players are looking for and what lengths they are willing to go to and specifically travel for to attend an event.
First off I will start. Producing these events takes a lot of time, expense and planning to pull off. It is true that we can all just gather at a field, pick a side and just fight all day dressed in our WW2 impressions and have a good time. But over the years, it seemed to me that most of the members wanted more than that. I have tried to give us events that are well thought out, that offer a variety in themes, location and objectives.
Having almost all of our events at GZA these past few years have been convenient for most, but also seem to get a little stale over time. The field does offer a lot and they have made improvements over the past few years, but the familiarity players had with it hindered game play. It was because of that I tried to change the focus of the battles to different areas of the field from event to event. "Day of Days" had fighting at the fire base area, Kafir hill and in the woods for the night fighting. "Bastogne" focused mostly on the Village area and "Hell's Highway" mostly focused in the woods between the Village and the GI base. My point is I wanted to keep things fresh and interesting and I felt searching out a new field would do the trick. But based attendance from the last two events in NJ and upstate NY, perhaps that was not what players are looking for.
That in a nut shell is my dilemma. So here are my options:
1) GZA can still be an option, but at a high cost. Based on my recent dealings with ownership, events will only be held on Saturdays with Friday set up/camping and possible night fighting. Sunday's are out because they have their own game and cost is too high to bump their game. I will also require a large number (at least 30) of Pre-Pays before I even book the field. This is due to the fact that GZA requires a deposit and base on recent attendance, I'm not laying out that kind of money for 10 players to show.
2) Lash's Paintball in Johnstown NY. Brownien and I worked real well together in hosting this first event and I look forward to working with him again in the future. The field owner is very easy to deal with and the field itself is very large with plenty of character. Having events there would offer little restrictions and give us flexibility for time and cost.
3) Independent field in PA. I have been in contact with a member who has access to a field in the NW Poconos Area of Pa. I have not seen this field yet, but have been given a good description of it. It seems to be similar in size to GZA with a flexible owner like Lash's paintball. Location may be better for some and cost could also be agreeable.
These are my thoughts and options going forward. now it's your turn to tell me your thoughts and preferences. I did not want to do a Poll as that never seems to get us anywhere and is anonymous. I feel we should all chime in and see were we're at with this hobby here in the North East.
All opinions shall be considered and respected. While it is impossible to make everyone happy, my objective is to keep this hobby going and hopefully increase with interest. I'm hopeful that most of you feel the same way and are willing to make an effort to keep this alive here in the NE.
With respect, Migs
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Post by brownien on Apr 30, 2013 14:52:18 GMT -5
I feel that, although I have only played at GZA a few times, hearing the cost to simply book the events there is kind of rediculous! They may have neat bunkers and foxholes, but for that amount of money I dont think its worth it.
I like Lash's in Upstate NY, because it is VERY easy to set up the date and reserve the field, and it is a HUGE field! Plenty of access roads, and all roads are wide enough to drive a truck down to ease any encampment setups. Even though I am only minutes away from the field, I would be worth travelling 4 hours to the location. I think for a new field, it has great potetiontial, plenty of character, and unlike GZA, we can have Entire weekend long events!
I have only heard talk about how there used to be 60+ participants at past events, and I too wonder why we can only get 11 players at best lately. I am very curious as to how we can boost our numbers at future events.
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ScottCollins
Private 1st Class
A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both.
Posts: 548
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Post by ScottCollins on Apr 30, 2013 17:19:05 GMT -5
Us guys in Michigan get maybe 30 guys a game. I don't know what's going on down there. I really didn't want to tell anyone about this until I was sure but I'm still trying to get answers on if we can use Bois Blanc. (Google Earth it) From my research, most of the island is an abandoned state forest. There is a camping ground and I'm still trying to get in touch with the town hall there. I think if we did a full weekend this summer just to see how it plays(if we can) then we could possibly hold pretty big events there.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 30, 2013 21:41:41 GMT -5
The new venue you have scouted sounds terrific and there is no doubt that securing the right field is half the battle. My suggestion is you figure out how to pull off a small squad level series initially. Strictly limit the first venture to 12 to 15 players and cut it off after that. Run a series of squad level objectives with an OPFOR that is tied into your flow and staff. Use the event to get pictures and antecdotes you can use to promote future growth.
People obsess over BIG events that fail to materialize more often than not and you find yourself with a litany of disappointments. Aim low and be delighted. That's how we started in the NW and thatswhat the group is doing in California. in both cases the momentum grew quicker then by trying to start big. The quality of participants is better,the impressions are better and the events are easier to run and more fun for the sponsors as well.
We have had many many events with 20 players or so and several with over 100. In so many ways the events with 20 were the most fun.
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Post by SfcMigs on Apr 30, 2013 22:01:12 GMT -5
The new venue you have scouted sounds terrific and there is no doubt that securing the right field is half the battle. My suggestion is you figure out how to pull off a small squad level series initially. Strictly limit the first venture to 12 to 15 players and cut it off after that. Run a series of squad level objectives with an OPFOR that is tied into your flow and staff. Use the event to get pictures and antecdotes you can use to promote future growth. People obsess over BIG events that fail to materialize more often than not and you find yourself with a litany of disappointments. Aim low and be delighted. That's how we started in the NW and thatswhat the group is doing in California. in both cases the momentum grew quicker then by trying to start big. The quality of participants is better,the impressions are better and the events are easier to run and more fun for the sponsors as well. We have had many many events with 20 players or so and several with over 100. In so many ways the events with 20 were the most fun. I agree with your thoughts here. But the only problem is we are going backwards. We usually have anywhere from 30 to 60 players depending, but lately so many have gone dark. Not on the boards, not on facebook page. Nothing. Thus this thread. Thanks for your thoughts.
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Post by wilhelmmoa on Apr 30, 2013 22:08:24 GMT -5
If I where you, go to public blank fire and living history events to recruit men. That's what MOA does and it works pretty good.
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Post by SfcMigs on May 1, 2013 7:18:40 GMT -5
If I where you, go to public blank fire and living history events to recruit men. That's what MOA does and it works pretty good. I actually tried that. My first event (Day of Days) in June 2011 I actually hired a Blank fire unit (German) for effects. They did a great job at the event and everyone seemed to really enjoy themselves. This was a two fold objective, add some ambiance to the event with all the gun fire noise during the beach landings and try to entice the blank fire unit to try airsoft down the road and spread the word throughout their community. I even had a raffle for a AGM STg44 in hopes that they would try the raffle and one of them would win the gun. Well......NOTHING. Only one player bought a $5.00 raffle ticket and I believe we only gained one player from the group of 15. For the next couple of events after that, I even allowed blank fire players to use their blank fire guns, hoping that new players would eventually change over. That didn't work out as well. I still think it's a good idea to try and recruit, I guess I just didn't entice the right group of players. Thanks for the input.
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Post by The Legacy on May 1, 2013 9:43:08 GMT -5
Us guys in Michigan get maybe 30 guys a game. I don't know what's going on down there. I really didn't want to tell anyone about this until I was sure but I'm still trying to get answers on if we can use Bois Blanc. (Google Earth it) From my research, most of the island is an abandoned state forest. There is a camping ground and I'm still trying to get in touch with the town hall there. I think if we did a full weekend this summer just to see how it plays(if we can) then we could possibly hold pretty big events there. Myself and a buddy live in Chicago and have been driving up to Wisconsin to play in the MOA games but would definitely be interested in heading to Michigan to play as well. That being said I am currently in the process of trying to garner more interest out here and I think videos, social media, etc all play a big part in that. It also wouldn't hurt to have a couple new WWII movies/video games hit the mainstream again It seems like when Saving Private Ryan hit theatres back in the late 90's there was a huge surge in WWII interest. Obviously that is out of our hands but like I said, couldn't hurt. As for small unit action vs. big scenario games I think there needs to be a nice mix of both. If locally we can keep small groups of 20-30 going and all somehow coordinate a couple of big Eastwind type of events a year (not necessarily 9 days but immersive in scope) with plenty of time for people to plan and travel we have a good chance at keeping this hobby alive.
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Post by Rekkon on May 1, 2013 11:56:12 GMT -5
If I where you, go to public blank fire and living history events to recruit men. That's what MOA does and it works pretty good. Uh, no. While the MOA does do this, I do not think it has generated any active members. We have had a few reenactors come to our events, but generally only once. It rather seems like there are only three categories: WWII reenactors, WWII airsofters and WWII airsofters that also do some blank fire. Franz and I were talking last weekend about how the two are virtually separate hobbies.
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ersatzjack2
Private 1st Class
"We can still win this thing, once the secret weapons arrive."
Posts: 612
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Post by ersatzjack2 on May 1, 2013 14:41:34 GMT -5
Well put Wolfgang. You're accurate. The reenactors that we do attract don't stay. It's nice to have them try it though. A few have come to more than one event but I haven't seen them recently. I went to one blank fire tactical and that was enough for me so it's all in what you like. I like the events with crowds (which airsoft doesn't generate) but if I do tactical it is going to be airsoft. We have had better results by attracting airsofters who want to give WW2 a try. Then you're getting someone who enjoys the airsoft aspects and those candidates are the ones who build impressions and stay with us.
Legacy, you're right also. Social media and videos and photos thru afteraction reports are also very important. Even if you're too lazy to never type a word my guess is that you enjoy reading the afteractions and looking at event photos and videos. There are really just a few in the hobby who lead in this regards. People judge events in this fashion also. If you've had a good time you should say so if only to be polite to the event organizers who put these things together. I've seen people and entire groups come and go. Interests change and it is perplexing that interest levels ebb and flow. I don't think there is a magic answer. Hang on to the good committed players and keep plugging along. It's no coincidence that the three main regions that host events are areas where there are lots of people. Out East you guys probably have the biggest pool to draw from. We draw from Chicago, the Twin Cities and the entire State of WI and the guys out West have the huge state of California. There just aren't that many of us. If you want to go to events you need to reconcile yourself to traveling.
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Post by zenoctilles on May 1, 2013 21:53:04 GMT -5
I'm one of those guys who really wants to do this (I even have the gear), but my lack of transportation to these places is my main problem (I live in Boston), and a lot of my friends are not interested in spending hundreds of dollars to get gear that they might only use a couple of times a year.
One day, I'll make it to one of these events. But I guess WW2 airsoft is just too niche for its own good in this part of the country.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 1, 2013 23:14:39 GMT -5
It is a hobby still in its formulative stages. The new influx of increased weapon choices should help a lot andwhile it feels like stepping back if your numbers have gone from sixty down it all depends on how you judge the success of your event. Sadly it seems the bigger the event the less fun a lot of folks seem to have. The bigger the event it seems the more diverse the interests and levels of emmersion.
I have found i like more intimate events of 20 to 30 then the 120 plus. I have seen events of 15 that played big and were remarkably intense and authentic. Radio traffic, firefights off in the distance, runners bringing word of what's happening elsewhere. There are lots of ways for a dozen players feeling a part of something bigger.
We have attracted a few blank burners who have stayed with the hobby but airsoft and blankfire are very different disciplines. Trying to force the issue is counter productive. Like my brother trying to talk e into enjoying golf. It ain't gonna happen. I have no issues with him loving it but nothing about it is appealing to me.
I did tons of blankfire in the army and had real stuff come and go as well. For me airsoft is more exciting but of course they both have their limitations (thank God!). The added emmersive atmoshere of most blankfire events is what we have learned from and that has enhanced our airsoft events. Blanks and fire crackers, flares, smoke and sound effects add a lot. Vehicles are wonderful and help you draw folks.
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Post by SfcMigs on May 2, 2013 9:39:28 GMT -5
I certainly appreciate everyone's input on this thread and I will heed some of the recommendations in the future. I have considered the advertising/recruitment route and it does make sense. But it pains me to have to go to such lengths and spend time I don't have to convince players to pay airsoft. With all the continuing chatter on the boards about getting kits together, all the new guns that are coming out, etc. What's the point if you don't put your stuff to use?
Coming up with event themes, searching out new locations, negotiating with field owners for acceptable field costs are just some of the basic tasks event producers face. If I have to add in recruitment and advertising, I just may have to ask myself "when is enough, enough?"
The objective of this thread seems to be working, but with the wrong target audience. From what I can tell, most who have commented are not from the region. While I appreciate ALL opinions, I was hoping to hear from the membership who has gone collectively "Dark" over recent months. The events over the past few years seem to have a base group of 25 or so "regular" players that you could count on for every event. That number has now significantly dwindled down and is almost non existent. These are the members I would like to hear from. What are they looking for and why the absence? I understand life gets in the way and it's hard to make every event. But it's not like these events happen every month. Recently I took a poll question as to "How often would you like to attend an event?" More than half the votes were for 2/3 months. Well, where are these people? (this is why this thread is not a poll. Polls are anonymous)
While the last two events were really more a "gathering" than an event, they were very enjoyable. The fire fights were intense, the players were skilled and honorable, and a great time seemed to be had by all. That in the end is what it's all about. I just wish the ones who have disappeared felt the same way.
And just to be clear, small events do work, but the logistics have to also add up. Especially financially.
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Post by tango on May 2, 2013 16:27:22 GMT -5
Some ideas: As the event organizer, if you have the contact information of your past attendees (email, mailing address, etc), maybe you can send out a survey to identify the causes of the poor turnout. If past attendees have lost interest in WW2 airsoft and don't use the forum any more, asking on the forum is probably not going to generate very much feedback. Another thing to try is to gather everyone in a circle after the end of the game and ask for feedback from the players in the form of Sustain or Improve. This allows you to cater your events to the people that actually show up. In this day and age I think the impact of social media cannot be ignored. If you don't have the time to run an advertisement campaign (understandable) I think you should find someone who can do it for you. In my experience, airsoft forums are largely being replaced by Facebook groups, events, and pages. On the West Coast a lot of the MilSim organizations advertise each other's events, which helps get the word out. For example- these are the last two events I went to. www.facebook.com/events/118113961675853/www.facebook.com/events/557653357601044Both events were advertised on local forums, but the bulk of the interaction between the organizers and players happened on Facebook. After the game, AARs, photos, and videos were all posted primarily on Facebook. You could also try finding someone who is willing to act as a dedicated photographer- both Operation Eastwind and the events run by MilSim West do this.
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Post by knights52 on May 2, 2013 19:03:42 GMT -5
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Post by SfcMigs on May 2, 2013 19:32:52 GMT -5
Some ideas: As the event organizer, if you have the contact information of your past attendees (email, mailing address, etc), maybe you can send out a survey to identify the causes of the poor turnout. If past attendees have lost interest in WW2 airsoft and don't use the forum any more, asking on the forum is probably not going to generate very much feedback. Another thing to try is to gather everyone in a circle after the end of the game and ask for feedback from the players in the form of Sustain or Improve. This allows you to cater your events to the people that actually show up. In this day and age I think the impact of social media cannot be ignored. If you don't have the time to run an advertisement campaign (understandable) I think you should find someone who can do it for you. In my experience, airsoft forums are largely being replaced by Facebook groups, events, and pages. On the West Coast a lot of the MilSim organizations advertise each other's events, which helps get the word out. For example- these are the last two events I went to. www.facebook.com/events/118113961675853/www.facebook.com/events/557653357601044Both events were advertised on local forums, but the bulk of the interaction between the organizers and players happened on Facebook. After the game, AARs, photos, and videos were all posted primarily on Facebook. You could also try finding someone who is willing to act as a dedicated photographer- both Operation Eastwind and the events run by MilSim West do this. Thanks for the suggestions. Truth is, I do advertise every event on our facebook page and for the events at GZA, I've advertised on their website. As for contacting previous players, some I'm friends with on facebook and I've also contacted some via email and PM's. I guess the more I think about it, it's probably just me Thanks again for the thoughts.
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themovieman101
Private
"the eagle was killed by an arrow made of his own feathers"
Posts: 44
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Post by themovieman101 on May 2, 2013 20:22:47 GMT -5
Hey guys, I'm thirteen soon to be 14. I from upstate ny. Being thirteen its hard to drive far distances with our parents. So anywhere near upstate is great. If theres a close event we ll do our best to be there. We are american infantry and partisans. - Hunter
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Post by drizzt04 on May 2, 2013 23:31:50 GMT -5
Joe,
Hope I am local enough for you.
First off, dont take me going dark personally. This time of year, I am off the grid for everyone, including my own unit for the most part. Being VP of tee ball in my town takes a lot of my time until after opening day. However, opening day has come and gone, so here I am.
First, dont think its you. You put on a great event.
Your core group is definitely smaller. The fact that JP has decided to go on hiatus took quite a few away, and I havent really seen much from the museum guys on here lately either. But some of us are still here, such as myself and my guys.
I think you may be trying to recruit from the wrong group of people. I have been and will continue to try getting the reenactors out here, but most of them just arent interested. Of course, they get pissed if someone tries to use a bfong instead of a real rifle, so not much surprise there.
We shoudl be trying to recruit the modern airsofters to come play. I will be hopefully holding an event, and I plan on trying to get those guys to come out in force.
Another suggestion is try getting a russian unit together. Gear is much cheaper than both German and American. Cost of the uniform is definitely a factor.
Now here is the part that is hard for me to say, because I do respect you so much. So please dont get offended.
It is constantly talked about how these are full immersion events. I dont believe that they are. When I am reenacting there are multiole times that I forget that it is 2013. I am in the moment, and for me, the battle is real. Like when I am layig next to a stug, and there is a P-51 dive bombing directly at me, or when i am in the woods on a snowy day, and there is a full MG-42 gun crew firing full auto at the GI's coming through the trees at us. Events where the minute I arrive, I am in uniform, and I am living the life of a soldier. NO cell phones. No modern gear. Even my food is in period wrappers. There is more to an immersion than just throwing on a feldgrau jacket and firing an mp-40 at my friends. Reenacting does this very well.
I believe WW2 airsoft needs to head in that direction. You once told me there was a reason you hired us to be at that dday event. You wanted airsofters to see how people that took this seriously did what they did. You wanted the airsofters to experience the things that reenactors do. That seems to have been lost along the way. And without it, why bother spending a thousand dollars on a period uniform, when you can just buy some $20 cammies and an M16 to go play with?
At our next event, lets try to bring back that immersion effect. Once you show up at the field, you are at the field. No going to your car, no cell phones, no cans of coke laying around, no DD brought in for breakfast, Eat, sleep, and live WW2 living. Instead of trying to have a night battle, make an effort to have a camp reminicent of those days. Sit around the fire talking about girlfriends back home. Have a mail call. Germans, sing the old songs. Do those things that make you believe that you are in 1944.
And that also means that things like registration be held out of sight of the AO. Instead of having everyone just gather in a circle for safety meetings, make them get in formation. Treat it like a professional soldier would.
These are just a few suggestions. If you can make people believe even for one minute that they are truly fighting in WW2, you will see participation grow. Show that there is a reason we call them WW2 games and not themes. And for those that dont want to abide by the guidelines, go find one of those "theme" games where the Germans carry chrome 12" barrel lugers, and the Allied sniper has digital camo and a modern sniper rifle.
And I know I am rambling on, but one more thing. There needs to be a concerted effort by the particpants to help the event move along. Every event, there is a schedule set for when the safety briefing is, and usually a 10am start time (which I personally think is too late), and yet, I cant remember starting before 11. Then a break for lunch which lasts much too long. There is too much downtime.
Ok, its late, Im tired, but I hope this made sense and sounded half intelligent.
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Post by knights52 on May 2, 2013 23:59:37 GMT -5
I definitely agree with Bill. It's fine in my opinion to have Dunkin and Coca Cola, Modern tents, whatever, but keep it off the field. Once you're on the field, you're in the period. I loved what JP was brining us with the tents, music, and props, and we need more of that.
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Ersatzjack
Corporal
"That silly Franz... he thinks we are winning."
Posts: 1,093
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Post by Ersatzjack on May 3, 2013 0:20:22 GMT -5
Yeah! That looks like it will be a great movie. Just the right front too. Also - I agree with the reenactor comments. Quality over worries about participation. Of course, that means you need a field where you don't rely on numbers. Catch-22.
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Post by SfcMigs on May 3, 2013 9:12:35 GMT -5
Joe, Hope I am local enough for you. First off, dont take me going dark personally. This time of year, I am off the grid for everyone, including my own unit for the most part. Being VP of tee ball in my town takes a lot of my time until after opening day. However, opening day has come and gone, so here I am. First, dont think its you. You put on a great event. Your core group is definitely smaller. The fact that JP has decided to go on hiatus took quite a few away, and I havent really seen much from the museum guys on here lately either. But some of us are still here, such as myself and my guys. I think you may be trying to recruit from the wrong group of people. I have been and will continue to try getting the reenactors out here, but most of them just arent interested. Of course, they get pissed if someone tries to use a bfong instead of a real rifle, so not much surprise there. We shoudl be trying to recruit the modern airsofters to come play. I will be hopefully holding an event, and I plan on trying to get those guys to come out in force. Another suggestion is try getting a russian unit together. Gear is much cheaper than both German and American. Cost of the uniform is definitely a factor. Now here is the part that is hard for me to say, because I do respect you so much. So please dont get offended. It is constantly talked about how these are full immersion events. I dont believe that they are. When I am reenacting there are multiole times that I forget that it is 2013. I am in the moment, and for me, the battle is real. Like when I am layig next to a stug, and there is a P-51 dive bombing directly at me, or when i am in the woods on a snowy day, and there is a full MG-42 gun crew firing full auto at the GI's coming through the trees at us. Events where the minute I arrive, I am in uniform, and I am living the life of a soldier. NO cell phones. No modern gear. Even my food is in period wrappers. There is more to an immersion than just throwing on a feldgrau jacket and firing an mp-40 at my friends. Reenacting does this very well. I believe WW2 airsoft needs to head in that direction. You once told me there was a reason you hired us to be at that dday event. You wanted airsofters to see how people that took this seriously did what they did. You wanted the airsofters to experience the things that reenactors do. That seems to have been lost along the way. And without it, why bother spending a thousand dollars on a period uniform, when you can just buy some $20 cammies and an M16 to go play with? At our next event, lets try to bring back that immersion effect. Once you show up at the field, you are at the field. No going to your car, no cell phones, no cans of coke laying around, no DD brought in for breakfast, Eat, sleep, and live WW2 living. Instead of trying to have a night battle, make an effort to have a camp reminicent of those days. Sit around the fire talking about girlfriends back home. Have a mail call. Germans, sing the old songs. Do those things that make you believe that you are in 1944. And that also means that things like registration be held out of sight of the AO. Instead of having everyone just gather in a circle for safety meetings, make them get in formation. Treat it like a professional soldier would. These are just a few suggestions. If you can make people believe even for one minute that they are truly fighting in WW2, you will see participation grow. Show that there is a reason we call them WW2 games and not themes. And for those that dont want to abide by the guidelines, go find one of those "theme" games where the Germans carry chrome 12" barrel lugers, and the Allied sniper has digital camo and a modern sniper rifle. And I know I am rambling on, but one more thing. There needs to be a concerted effort by the particpants to help the event move along. Every event, there is a schedule set for when the safety briefing is, and usually a 10am start time (which I personally think is too late), and yet, I cant remember starting before 11. Then a break for lunch which lasts much too long. There is too much downtime. Ok, its late, Im tired, but I hope this made sense and sounded half intelligent. Hello Bill, Yes you are local enough for me and I never considered you as one of the "dark opts" ;D I appreciate and respect your comments, but I do feel the need to explain and respond to what your proposing. Let's start off with why I hired the blank fire guys for my first event. Yes, I did want the novice airsofters to experience what a re-enactor unit had to offer and their commitment to the whole WW2 period, etc. But I also was hoping to entice and draw players from that community as well. I was told how much Airsoft was poo-pooed in the blank fire world and there was a level of misunderstanding as to how serious some of the WW2 Airsoft players are. Also, blank fire players already have their kits together, and based on what you guys spend just in ammo for one event, I thought it to be a no brainer that players would be willing to spend $200.00 bucks or less for a WW2 airsoft gun. Most of us were hoping that the unit would try the hobby down the road and help spread the word about airsoft and we would grow from there. This is also why I allowed the incorporation of blank fire guns at some of the events after Day of Days. Hoping to draw more players. I never really wanted the combo events, I wanted the blank fire guys to buy airsoft guns and join us. Steve K. assured me this would probably happen, but we only seemed to gain a few (you and Jeff included). So be it. As for the full immersed events and no period items, etc. Let me first comment on the non period stuff. I've always enforced this policy. Anyone with a non period tent had to leave it in the parking lot. No modern water bottles, food, etc would also have to be left at their modern camp. I've always had strict ammo restrictions not allowing loose BB's or BB containers. Only ammo cans and loaded mags have been allowed. What I have been lackadaisical on is small details of players kits, mostly boots. But it's very hard to tell a teenager who's father just dropped him off to turn around and go home because he has the wrong boots on. I've spoken to players privately about those issues and told them to correct them for next time, etc. As for players leaving the field to use the bathroom, go to DD's in the morning or going to their cars for gun issues etc, realistically it's very hard to stop. I can't run an event on a field of 60 plus acres and monitor who's leaving to go to their cars. That would be up to each sides CO's and unit commanders. Very hard to police that. As for the full immersed events that most seem to want to have. This past weekends event did have that offered and I'm always offering the Friday night set up/camp or fight option. Saturday is all day and players have been welcomed to stay Saturday night as well. But Sunday's have been off the table at GZA for the past few events. Reason for this is money, money, money!! GZA runs very large pick up games every Sunday where he has anywhere from 80 to 100 modern players (and I have reached out to those players) paying $20.00 per. If we want Sunday, I have to pay him that amount just for Sunday plus the field cost for Saturday and Friday night. So for those of you who want to do that, feel free to pony up the cash and I'll be happy to book it. Based on average numbers, I would have to charge around $175.00 per player. I can't get a good checker game right now for $45.00, how can I even consider charging that. I have no problem with doing the full immersion events, but we need the right field that will allow us to do that. Cost wise that is. As for knowing who the players are that have gone dark so to speak, I know who they are and I have reached out to most of them. Some have their reasons and others haven't responded. That's the part that drives me crazy. I never asked for this responsibility when Gerry went down, Brandon and I picked up the ball and seemed to inherent it. That's fine and I enjoy it, but have a little respect and courtesy. If I send you an email or PM, just respond. If you can't make it, fine, but to ignore is just insulting. But like I previously said, I welcome all thoughts here and hope that players here in the NE will make the effort to attend these events, no matter who runs them. I've been to every event since the Amsterdam one in Dec. 2007 and I thoroughly enjoy them. Hopefully more will feel the same way I do and make an effort to try and make the next one. Wherever and whenever that may be.
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Post by brownien on May 3, 2013 9:41:12 GMT -5
I agree that by making events with more of an immersion factor would make them much better, and we have the resources to do it. But when we get a total of 11 players at an event, its really not worth trying to set up both side's HQ tents, encampments, faux fuel and ammo dumps, and borrow ww2 vehicles especially. I have a friend that has an M29 Weasl, a ww2 Dodge truck and several ww2 aircraft he would be willing to let us borrow/ do flybys and bombing runs with, but when we have 11 people total, its really not worth the Event director's time, money and effort to go out and borrow the equipment, and then pay for the fuel to operate said vehicles. Common sense has to come into play here. Even if we had 20 or so people prepay and show up to an event, I would be down with having my friend truck the vehicles over, but all these immersion boosters cost money, and without enough people attending to even out the costs, we; as hosts, cannot end up in the red at the end of the day.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 3, 2013 12:42:57 GMT -5
The vast majority of participating players don't have the slightest clue regarding how much energy, time and expense, hosting these events is and extending this thread for feedback and input is a powerful indicator of your passion and sincere interest in growing this hobby. I know how discouraging it can be. At least for me, the greatest challenge is planning the party, never knowing how many people will come.
Our solution has been pre enrollment and pre payment. Folks who can't send in a registration online and funnel funds in probably aren't coming and counting on them only causes further disappointment. This also saves the onsite registration , sign in hassles and allows you to get a ton of the administrative nonsense out of the way before hand while providing some seed money for those things that cause event sponsors to dig into their own pockets way too deeply.
folks who are pre-enrolled receive a copy of their orders and turn those in to the CQ upon arrival. Participants arrive on the field in uniformand in role. The staff sets the tone. Chrono is a mock firing range and briefings as indicated above are in formation. These are all things I drew from a career in the Army but only realized people wanted from the input of the reenacing community. Until exposed to their mindsetI had no clue that any of this would be appealing. If a gathering is small figure out what life in a squad would be like out in the field and replicate it to the degree possible.
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Post by drizzt04 on May 3, 2013 23:02:02 GMT -5
Migs,
I meant no offence. Like I said, I love the events you put on. My suggestions are only meant to turn an awesome battle into an epic one.
Brownien,
All due respect, but props arent what makes the event immersive. All the toys and gadgets are extremely cool, but it comes down to the atmosphere. I would be just as impressed walking up to a row of zelt tents as I would be walking into a fully active military post. (Ok, maybe the post would be more impressive). It is all about how the participants conduct themselves.
Picture this,
You are walking through the woods. Your patrol was ambushed and you were the only one to escape. You are tired, scared, saddened, and hungry. You are trying to make your way back to your CP to report what has happened. You walk quietly and on alert because you know that you are still in no mans land between the lines.
Suddenly from seemingly nowhere and everywhere you hear a voice telling you to halt and be recognized. Startled yo raise your weapon before realizing that you recognize the voice. With a feeling of relief, you pass your lines and find the HQ. The CO is inside and you make your report informing him that the enemy is becoming more active in the area. He both thanks you and consoles you, and tells you to get somethig to eat. You make your way to your comapany and with a sigh of relief that you made it back, you sink into a seat and take the cup of coffee one of your fellow troops hands you.
Your relief is tempered with one thought. You know that in the morning, there is a very good chance that you will be facing those same enemy troops in mortal combat.....
Now, if you were able to put your self into that thought process and feel those emotions for just one moment, you just had yourself a full immersion. All this with no props and not even firing your weapon. This would be one way you could be sent to your camp upon arrival at the field. A lonely walk, with a short story in your head.
Like I said, its not the toys or the firefights that make an event special. Its the little details that make you feel just a little what it is like to be thousands of miles from home, in a foreign country, down range with enemies all around. It is that walk, or the period letter from home, or even eating a lemon drop drinking coffee from you canteen cup.
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Post by SfcMigs on May 4, 2013 10:45:17 GMT -5
Hi Bill,
No offense taken, believe me. I agree with the whole immersion effect. I too love that feeling. But I feel 2nd bats point is more in line with what I'm looking for. We can set up the events to be anyway we choose, turn away players with incorrect impressions, etc; but if we can't get players to commit, what's the point?
Brownien and I will probably have to implement the pre-pay policy/registration only. This will solve a lot of problems and truly prove who's committed. I understand some don't have paypal, so other arrangements can always be made through the event producer.
Just a thought on that.
Thanks again for all the inputs guys.
Migs
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 4, 2013 15:50:52 GMT -5
There are lots of aspects to this hobby. The history, The impressions, the paraphenalia, the weapons, the aitsoft aspects, the collective discussions and the events themselves. Sadly there are lots of players who talk a big talk but when it comes down to it they find excuses, " my impression isn't ready, or I don't have a way to get there or that was the weekend I had to listen to my pores open and close..." because when it really comes down to it, the events are not really where their true interests lie. Pictures in the back yard or a collection of airsoft rifles is really what they like. This doesn't make them bad people but it certainly doesn't make them ww2 airsofters. requiring an advanced payment or at least an advanced non refundable deposit is the only way to reasonably plan for attendance. Talk is just too cheap. Intentions, though well meaning don't cover the events costs and event planner depend on relative certainty about numbers so the support logistics and appropriate tactical plans can be in place. As a sponsor I need to know pretty accurately how many people are coming. In our case there is a big difference with issuing everyone a shelter half or bringing two GP Mediums and six squad tents. We do chow so we definitely need accurate estimates. Even with advanced payments you'll suffer some attrition because things do come up. This happens to concert goers as well. Our policy in such cases is free or reduced attendance at a future event.
By charging a higher " the door" rate but still reserving the right to turn people away you'll be amazed how much easier your life as a sponsor will be. Once your events become recognized as an event to get enroled in early or miss out, things change dramatically. The lion claws series turns people away every year and some of that is pure marketing by John Lu. I'm guessing that when it coes right down to it Sgt Migs and Brownien put more heart and soul into each of their events than best of USA airsoft ever has.
The bottom line is the focal point of ww2 airsoft is the events. Don't be a chairsofter. Make attendance at the events a priority and support those souls who are dedicated and courageous enough to put these things on.
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Post by piper318 on May 6, 2013 18:10:12 GMT -5
Tyler and I are still here, i will put my thoughts in tomorrow.
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Post by Warlord on May 9, 2013 1:25:57 GMT -5
I haven't been active in airsoft for some time but I thought I'd chime in.
I am really impressed with what Gerry and Joe (and Piper as well) have done with these ops over the past few years. Though I haven't been able to attend many of them myself, my guys tell me that you've been able to innovate and experiment with some new game mechanics pretty successfully - and the effort to up the ante in the immersion department is always excellent. Drizzt brought up some interesting points with regards to reenacting, but I can tell you that some of their events in the Northeast have already nearly reached that level. The in-game moments that you describe are exactly the kind of experiences that these guys have already created. Still, Joe is absolutely right, you can't control everything - and there are certain things coordinators would rather do without, but cannot necessarily 'ban' either.
OPs are not always consistently going to be able to deliver the full-on 'WW2' immersion experience that an individual might expect. But is complete immersion always absolutely essential? Let's not kid ourselves here - we are a bunch of dudes who dress up in miilitary uniforms and go around shooting each other with plastic bbs. For the sake of getting more people involved, we don't have to be stitch-nazis all the time. Take UK WW2 Airsoft as a case in point - and this is no shot at UK events at all, but many times they're able to incorporate much more people by making some exceptions - perhaps this is something we could try more often. That doesn't mean we have to sacrifice your bread and butter WW2 milsim - but we may expect lower numbers in that area.
It's certainly discouraging to hear that there seems to be dwindling attendance at these events. People put a lot of work into organizing these and a solid turnout is always a rewarding outcome to months of work and planning. This could be also be a cyclical thing. There's definitely no shortage of people who would be interested in taking part and probably also have the money and time to get fully involved. Either players are less active than they were, or as has been indicated, we are not reaching the people we should be.
I'm curious about a few things, mostly because of some thoughts I've had about past events and the fact that I have not seen nor heard of anything like this in recent memory.
Have there been any efforts on this board to establish regional databases of active (and perhaps inactive) WW2 Airsofters? Perhaps I'm going too far with this, but some names and contact information would go a long way in allowing serious event organizers to get in touch with players and teams in their area who don't consistently visit the forums. Personal outreach goes a long way.
Folks who posted about the importance of social media outlets have the right idea too. From what I remember, the World War II Western Front Airsoft Association had something like 650 likes. Getting the word out through outlets like facebook and even twitter (if any of you have jumped on that bandwagon yet - I haven't) is the way to go. If we can maintain that constant presence it would be great for events.
Furthermore, how much are people engaging regular airsoft players? It's not always possible to pull off but I think it's great when a well- organized group of WW2 players get kitted up and attend a 'modern' game. It's great exposure for WW2 airsoft and sparks plenty of curiosity. I recall a game run at GZA where a contingent of WW2 Airsofters (probably no more than 15 or 20) fought against a horde of regular guys. It was great fun, and I'm quite certain we walked away that day with at least a few new recruits. Just another thing to consider.
Most of what I've written here has already been said before. The community just has to get creative. We're not going to force chairsofters and the like to go to events but we can at least broaden the base.
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Post by SfcMigs on May 9, 2013 11:20:50 GMT -5
I haven't been active in airsoft for some time but I thought I'd chime in. I am really impressed with what Gerry and Joe (and Piper as well) have done with these ops over the past few years. Though I haven't been able to attend many of them myself, my guys tell me that you've been able to innovate and experiment with some new game mechanics pretty successfully - and the effort to up the ante in the immersion department is always excellent. Drizzt brought up some interesting points with regards to reenacting, but I can tell you that some of their events in the Northeast have already nearly reached that level. The in-game moments that you describe are exactly the kind of experiences that these guys have already created. Still, Joe is absolutely right, you can't control everything - and there are certain things coordinators would rather do without, but cannot necessarily 'ban' either. OPs are not always consistently going to be able to deliver the full-on 'WW2' immersion experience that an individual might expect. But is complete immersion always absolutely essential? Let's not kid ourselves here - we are a bunch of dudes who dress up in miilitary uniforms and go around shooting each other with plastic bbs. For the sake of getting more people involved, we don't have to be stitch-nazis all the time. Take UK WW2 Airsoft as a case in point - and this is no shot at UK events at all, but many times they're able to incorporate much more people by making some exceptions - perhaps this is something we could try more often. That doesn't mean we have to sacrifice your bread and butter WW2 milsim - but we may expect lower numbers in that area. It's certainly discouraging to hear that there seems to be dwindling attendance at these events. People put a lot of work into organizing these and a solid turnout is always a rewarding outcome to months of work and planning. This could be also be a cyclical thing. There's definitely no shortage of people who would be interested in taking part and probably also have the money and time to get fully involved. Either players are less active than they were, or as has been indicated, we are not reaching the people we should be. I'm curious about a few things, mostly because of some thoughts I've had about past events and the fact that I have not seen nor heard of anything like this in recent memory. Have there been any efforts on this board to establish regional databases of active (and perhaps inactive) WW2 Airsofters? Perhaps I'm going too far with this, but some names and contact information would go a long way in allowing serious event organizers to get in touch with players and teams in their area who don't consistently visit the forums. Personal outreach goes a long way. Folks who posted about the importance of social media outlets have the right idea too. From what I remember, the World War II Western Front Airsoft Association had something like 650 likes. Getting the word out through outlets like facebook and even twitter (if any of you have jumped on that bandwagon yet - I haven't) is the way to go. If we can maintain that constant presence it would be great for events. Furthermore, how much are people engaging regular airsoft players? It's not always possible to pull off but I think it's great when a well- organized group of WW2 players get kitted up and attend a 'modern' game. It's great exposure for WW2 airsoft and sparks plenty of curiosity. I recall a game run at GZA where a contingent of WW2 Airsofters (probably no more than 15 or 20) fought against a horde of regular guys. It was great fun, and I'm quite certain we walked away that day with at least a few new recruits. Just another thing to consider. Most of what I've written here has already been said before. The community just has to get creative. We're not going to force chairsofters and the like to go to events but we can at least broaden the base. I certainly agree with Warlord and will try to take his suggestions and put them into practice. I will start a date base from information I already have from previous events and will be using the facebook page for future events as well. In the past I have used different outlets such as the fields website and the facebook page, but it probably is a good idea to branch out more and use the social media as much as possible. What everyone who's interested can do is pm me their contact information so I can get this thing started. I do have "some" contact info, but some are old and most have neglected to include it in their registrations from events past. I will continue to post the upcoming events on this site with most of the information still occurring here, but I will provide information links on the facebook page and other outlets as well. Thanks again Warlord and hope to see you soon, Migs
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Post by SfcMigs on May 30, 2013 9:12:16 GMT -5
Anyone know where the MA Sept. event thread went??
WOW, now the threads are even disappearing! ;D
Not to rehash this topic, but I don't feel like we got the response and input I was hoping for. I have been working on setting up a data base to solicit future events, but looking over this thread and based on the limited amount of members (or lack there of) who chimed in, I honestly feel very discouraged.
I have been in private contact with a couple of members seeing if there is anything we can set up for future events, with new policies that need to be in place to make these events work and guarantee a minimum attendance. Several ideas have been passed around and I'm hoping to announce something soon.
In the meantime, please feel free to pass along your "new" thought/opinions here. This coming weekend used to be our "Day of Days" event weekend. What a shame. Anyone else miss this? Guess I'll go re-read the old AAR's.
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