stuka
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Post by stuka on Dec 2, 2013 23:32:35 GMT -5
Not sure where this goes but anyways...
I think there should be a thread concerning what would be acceptable(even though perhaps Flaggrantly Wrong for some) stand ins, from undershirts to rifles.
Just post something you think would be an acceptable stand in or would be a questionable stand in.
Commonplace stand in's: One of the very common ones would be roughtouts in place of boondockers.
Potential stand in's?: Would a kar98 be acceptable in place of an arisaka type rifle?There were from what I researched, 20k of them sent to japan, no idea what happened to them but yeah.
that's all I can think of but please do "chime in" as they say with potential stand in's and common stnad in's, questions or whatever if you can't just get that one piece of equipment for whatever reason.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 4, 2013 0:26:03 GMT -5
I guess I am far more lenient then most here but I am okay with brown shoes or boots under leggings. Once coated in the normal mud and crud it doesn't seem overly distracting to me. I am also fine with brown wool looking slacks from a thrift shop and the wool looking repo shirts in place of actual GI type wool shirts. By the time you get a field jacket on, some web gear a wool scarf or section of Camo parachute fabric Who's going to really notice. Finally I have a dozen plastic GI type M1 pots covered with netting and scrim and for my purposes I think they look and work great!
Photos come out looking quite good and they really are the only way I could afford to equip and supplement the numbers for local events. While certainly not perfect the level of distraction is acceptable to me. The impression from 10 feet is fine. (for me). I had 27 players at an event thrown together last weekend. For me that is more satisfying then six or eight guys and a lot of no shows even if the eight guys look perfect.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Dec 4, 2013 1:24:07 GMT -5
Well I have low standards, i just care about having that feel, look is just aesthetics really, but to have proper weapon usage and historicish scenarios with a good amount of people is what i'd prefer but anyways.
Some people tend to use west german stuff in place of ww2 stuff so that may be something to look into if you can't get the proper equipment or w.e
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 4, 2013 1:53:48 GMT -5
Depending on what it is but I find most of the postwarEast German stiff too distracting. Nylon web suspenderd, flectarn etc is a no go for me. i guess the more I know the harder it is for me to look past such things. ignorane really is bliss. the tactics and mission design, tactical ambiance are more important to me but without movie level costuming the emmersion just doesn't work. There are a lot of fabulous WW2 movies that piss off the stitch nazis.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Dec 4, 2013 18:19:34 GMT -5
I guess I'm different here. While some field gear is good for stand ins(like my postwar y-straps) because itll last longer than most repros, I'd rather have 15 damn great looking people than 100 poorly fitted people. Guess it's just a matter of opinion.
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shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on Dec 4, 2013 18:43:10 GMT -5
I guess I'm different here. While some field gear is good for stand ins(like my postwar y-straps) because itll last longer than most repros, I'd rather have 15 damn great looking people than 100 poorly fitted people. Guess it's just a matter of opinion. Not to start a flame war or anything, but I disagree. 100 poorly outfitted people is better than 15 hardcore people as long as the 100 people are not obviously modern. What a game like that would do is get (probably) the majority of the newbies hooked, so they then would money forth in the future for better uniforms. If it was 15 stitch nazis, they're probably already veteran WWIIsofters and don't help the hobby grow. That being said, for Brownien's event, recruit as many as you can! I feel the event could help the hobby gorw tremendously.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Dec 4, 2013 19:37:47 GMT -5
I like more people, but I prefer total accuracy. For example, I'm helping a new guy get kitted out for the Jan. 18th game. But, he has the willingness and the budget to do it right the first time, thus saving money in the future since he wont need to upgrade gear.
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Post by shiftysgarand on Dec 4, 2013 19:52:08 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with the "buy once, cry once" mantra. The reason I only have M42s, a cartridge belt and suspenders instead of a full impression is because I went full ATF and WWIIImp. I think though, if someone is new, they should come with pseudo-WWII gear instead of not coming at all.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 4, 2013 20:30:24 GMT -5
The arguement for quality over quantity is always interesting when it comes to WW2 airsoft for any kind of decent turnout I'm afraid compromises need to be made but it is always a fine line you are walking. Since it's all make believe and fantasy the challenge is everyone has their own vision for that fantasy and everyones standards are unique. I am by nature a compromiser and care more about guys who bring the right attitude rather than the right gear. We typically have enough folks able to supplement the gaps in gear, equipment and weapons. Getting folks seems to be the biggest challenge and often times our perceived attitude of perfection is fear enducing and off putting for a lot of potential advocates.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Dec 5, 2013 0:28:40 GMT -5
Alright, lets not argue, Issah i know you blankfire but for the sake of airsoft, what are "acceptable" substitutions in your opinion? While I would love to have perfect kits, not everybody has the money or time to assemble kits. If a person can get a few basic things, and have the strive and understanding to know they're incorrect but still want to participate and slowly assemble the kit, then I have no problem with that. Heck, I was that person, and in some ways still am. My first(and unfortunately only ww2 game so far) I only had od's a m1 liner(Lawl) and i had to borrow a guy's thompson since i had a m4 as my only airsoft gun at the time.
Blank fire guys do have standin's, sorry issah, your people aren't perfect. Doing an IJA kit, I have seen several stand in's for specific pieces of equipment for several different reasons and those guys are cherry as nobs.
Personally, I try to strive to have it as perfect as I can, and I always get frustrated with my puttees because those are a pretty big deal but you know what, I just get over it(retie them once or twice) but I don't rub it in anybodies face's(not to say you do but some people are mean) or get agitated when I see Flaggrantly Wrong stuff. I get more upset about my kit's imperfections then other peoples but thats just me...
anyways, what is acceptable for you issah?
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 5, 2013 17:55:45 GMT -5
In our very early days of putting on WW2 airsoft events (ten+years ago) Impressions were astronomically expensive (although original gear was much more affordable then it is today). WW2 airsoft weapons unless uber expensive, custom rifles didn't exist at all. The arguments about standards were just as virulent and opinions just as widely varied.
I did what I could to creatively bridge the gap and thrift shops and antique shop finds enabled me to pool enough hokey costumes to create a lose approximation of what I was striving for. Compared to traditional skirmishes with colored arm bands it was a huge leap forward and got things rolling. As new folks got dragged into the events many saw the initial event drivers in proper impressions and got hooked acquiring their own as well as additional gear to supplement others. With availability and prices on prope looking field jackets, shirts and trousers and decently priced field gear the looks got better and better (as did my costume shop).
Currently there are gaps in perfection but the overall look is quite good. US GI uniforms varied greatly and the real world look of an Infantry outfit was pretty motley so with mud and grime and decent looking pouches, packs and web gear and nearly universal period correct looking weapons the events really have no excuse not to look decent.
Rome wasn't built in a day but in order for players to have enough confidence to invest in a load out they have to be assured that enough themed events are held and close enough to where they live to justify the expense. Events are the key and they have to start somewhere. Admit it when first starting up you aren't going to get more then a few rabid fans show up if you set standards of perfection.
My costume base initially consisted of (gasp) plastic helmets and brown wool, off the rack trousers and shirts from thrift shops, actual leggings and actual web gear but with netting, some scrim and some theatrical aging, the helmets frankly still look damn good. Without these compromises I couldn't have afforded to issue a dozen plus costumes and these 12 extra bodies fills in the ranks enough that the events feel like events. Hopefully the day will come when such infidelities will not have to be implemented but I think they are neccessary in order to get there.
I guess for those insisting on perfection for WW2 airsoft I'd have to ask, hows that going for you? If your answer is "Just fine". Keep it up! If it isn't then obviously rethink things.
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Post by wilhelmmoa on Dec 5, 2013 19:26:20 GMT -5
Alright, lets not argue, Issah i know you blankfire but for the sake of airsoft, what are "acceptable" substitutions in your opinion? While I would love to have perfect kits, not everybody has the money or time to assemble kits. If a person can get a few basic things, and have the strive and understanding to know they're incorrect but still want to participate and slowly assemble the kit, then I have no problem with that. Heck, I was that person, and in some ways still am. My first(and unfortunately only ww2 game so far) I only had od's a m1 liner(Lawl) and i had to borrow a guy's thompson since i had a m4 as my only airsoft gun at the time. Blank fire guys do have standin's, sorry issah, your people aren't perfect. Doing an IJA kit, I have seen several stand in's for specific pieces of equipment for several different reasons and those guys are cherry as nobs. Personally, I try to strive to have it as perfect as I can, and I always get frustrated with my puttees because those are a pretty big deal but you know what, I just get over it(retie them once or twice) but I don't rub it in anybodies face's(not to say you do but some people are mean) or get agitated when I see Flaggrantly Wrong stuff. I get more upset about my kit's imperfections then other peoples but thats just me... anyways, what is acceptable for you issah? I completely agree we could have a thread for this! I want to know more on what I can do to make my kits look better and I bet other people feel the same way. I follow FARB fest on Facebook and the amount of people that make fun of WWII airsofters uniforms is just downright disgusting, and the thread would only help people.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Dec 5, 2013 19:47:51 GMT -5
Well this is just supposed to be about acceptable stand in's, sure it might be farb but well yeah
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 5, 2013 21:24:06 GMT -5
I really couldn't care less if reenactors find airsofters a joke. They have a full right to their opinion and truthfully when they post the obvious who can blame them? the truth hurts sometimes. Within their own ranks there are plenty of examples where they fall embarrassingly short. In the embryonic, early days of WW2 reenacting their efforts were every bit as chronically bad as ours tend to be. They of course had few organizations further along to lampoon them. i suspect even though many were comically bad they were having a good time and learning as they went. Otherwise their hobby would have perished. I have been to fairly large airsoft events where the standards were better then many blankfire events though I have never been to any where the standards were better then the AVERAGE bankfire event. We have a ways to go when it comes to authenticity with regard to uniforms, vehicles, props and gear but we'll get there. In the meantime work on what we have and appreciate that we have much to learn from them. We have a hobby where real projectiles are flying so while few of them realize it there is much they could lern from us. Alot of WW2 airsofters, (myself included) do both BF and airsoft and it isn't a case of one being "better" then the other. As an Infantry combat vet I vastly prefer airsoft but there are plenty of vets who no doubt would disagree.
They are similar, but seperate hobbies with more in common then not. We both could learn a great deal from one another but if they have no interest in what we have to offer...no problem. That certainly doesn't preclude us gaining from their knowledge and expertise. Especially the ways they go to great extremes to create ambiance and emmersive events. We already profit greatly from them in that without the expansion and size of their base we wouldn't have all the uniform and gear choices we have.
Rather then an "us vs them" direction lets keep this thread focused on what is acceptable and what isn't bearing in mind that such decisions are really up to the event sponsors and potential participants deciding if the standards are acceptable to them. There are no right or wrong answers here, just a chance to hear what others are thinking.
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Post by labrador on Dec 6, 2013 7:57:43 GMT -5
where's the like button?
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Post by volkssturm on Dec 6, 2013 12:17:55 GMT -5
It's that thumbs up icon in the upper right corner. Good discussion.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Dec 6, 2013 15:08:48 GMT -5
Alright, lets not argue, Issah i know you blankfire but for the sake of airsoft, what are "acceptable" substitutions in your opinion? While I would love to have perfect kits, not everybody has the money or time to assemble kits. If a person can get a few basic things, and have the strive and understanding to know they're incorrect but still want to participate and slowly assemble the kit, then I have no problem with that. Heck, I was that person, and in some ways still am. My first(and unfortunately only ww2 game so far) I only had od's a m1 liner(Lawl) and i had to borrow a guy's thompson since i had a m4 as my only airsoft gun at the time. Blank fire guys do have standin's, sorry issah, your people aren't perfect. Doing an IJA kit, I have seen several stand in's for specific pieces of equipment for several different reasons and those guys are cherry as nobs. Personally, I try to strive to have it as perfect as I can, and I always get frustrated with my puttees because those are a pretty big deal but you know what, I just get over it(retie them once or twice) but I don't rub it in anybodies face's(not to say you do but some people are mean) or get agitated when I see Flaggrantly Wrong stuff. I get more upset about my kit's imperfections then other peoples but thats just me... anyways, what is acceptable for you issah? OK, I do not understand why you seem so offended. I have not come at you with any bad remarks, I have just stated my opinion. However, if you want a long debate, sure. First point: "your people." One, I am about as active in blank fire as I am in airsoft, so it's hardly "my people." I actually find that somewhat offensive. Second point: cost. OK, now I do german, so I'm not up to date on US stuff. german stuff is actually more expensive. However, I have just seen an hbt SET sell for $30. If that's too much, people shouldn't be doing this, sorry to say. I know that might sound a bit douchy, but let's face it. OK, to help convey my point: let's say I really want to do ww2 airsoft but have no gear or cash. There are a few options for me. The first options is to pimp out modern stuff. OK, lets go to old navy, find a grey wool jacket, maybe a cheapo Spanish helmet, random leather belt, grey cargo pants, and hiking boots. Now, I can do everything to try to make that appear like ww2 gear, but: it will never be. Through all of the hassle, I could go to hikishop and get a decent impression for probably the same as all of that crap. The only thing that I just mentioned that would work would be the Spanish helmet (IF it was covered!) and the boots. The second option would be: loaner gear. Many people have tons of loaner stuff. That's probably the best way to go, rather than having a poor impression. Moreso, it really isn't hard to sell ww2 gear if you decide to get out of it. hell, guns should be bought LAST. most everyone here probably has at least 2 guns, in my case, I have plenty. Thus, that shouldn't be an excuse for having a burlapped m14 or something. On the blank fire subject: Firstly, I never said there were no stand-ins. There are plenty! my field gear is far from complete, but I'll admit that. However, do I look the part? yes. definitely. And, I have all high quality gear, but I didn't pay full price for it. how? SALES. A little bit of patience, you can find damn good sales or find stuff used for literally a fraction of it's new price. What is acceptable for me? I'd say 75% ww2 gear. Boots, underwear(shirts and such) and in some cases headwear are fine not being identical. But, running around in a 'nam helmet, grey Old Navy jacket, and sneakers trying to portray a WW2 soldier isn't acceptable by my book. Another issue: "us" and "they". WW2 airsoft and blankfire isn't that dissimilar. it's only attitude. Blankfire guys despise airsofting because of the Flaggrantly Wrong impressions and the overkill on stand-ins. Airsofters despise blankfirers because of that. the mentality of most ww2 airsofters is 'were airsofting in ww2 stuff. " However, what it SHOULD be is: "we're reenacting ww2 with airsoft guns for a more realistic battle feel." There, cased closed on my part. Also, one more thing mr. Stuka, if you're going to try and start an argument with me, at least get my name right. "issah" is different from "lssah". Just sayin' there.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Dec 6, 2013 15:46:07 GMT -5
Can we restart this thread 2nd bat, it got into well out of hand. lssah, whatever it is, some websites use different fonts therefore making it nearly impossible to distinguish I from l so sorry i got your name wrong. My whole thing is, Blankfire gets to ridiculous about it, pushing away potential people because of their lack of perfection(not all but a good amount) especially when there are tacticals. I get for public displays you'd want to be as close to perfect as you can but for tacticals, some people still want perfection even for new people and they come of as "dicks" if you will. Sorry I said your people, but I assumed(probably too soon) that you did more BFing then airsofting so I just figured that you were more part of that group hence the "your people".
I care about the mentality, aesthetics is nice and fluffy but when it comes down to it, having a east german coat vs a werchmat coat has no real functionality difference, it's just aesthetics. While perfection would be awesome, i'd rather have a fun time with some farbs then be nit picking with perfectionist mcgee's(not that everybody is like that obviously)
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Dec 6, 2013 16:09:37 GMT -5
But, take away the aesthetics and you have...regular airsoft. WW2 airsoft should be thought of as such, with ww2 gear. I guess I just am a bit more on the authenticity side than the numbers side, which is fine. I'd much rather see a small, quality event with awesomely kitted out players than a huge event with terrible east german tunics, old navy coats, etc.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Dec 7, 2013 1:34:18 GMT -5
Well i mean, if you got proper pouches but then you just have a different color jacket, it is at that point just aesthetic. I have already stated my opinions lol, no need to keep repeating them
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Post by brownien on Dec 7, 2013 13:11:45 GMT -5
Honestly, if you have 75% correct webgear, and uniform items, and have stand ins that will make you look accurate at a glance from 10ft away, you are all good. You aren't going to find an event with everyone in 95% correct gear. If you really need your fill of stitch knot see events, blankfire is a great outlet. Ww2 airsoft is more like the little brother to blankfire. We strive to be like the blankfire guys accuracy wise, but we still have a lot of growing to go. Many airsofters in out hobby are young kids to young adults. They don't have the financial stability to afford to get all correct gear for events like their older blankfire brothers. I would love for blankfire and airsoft to one day be one in the same, but the friction from hardcore blankfire guys may not allow that to happen until ww2 airsoft is out of its infancy and closer to the scale of blankfire.
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Post by shiftysgarand on Dec 7, 2013 13:35:05 GMT -5
I totally agree, especially with the point about age. I have not seen one blankfire reenactor under 18. Nearly all the airsofters I know are under that age. I am 14, my friends are 13, and we simply don't have the money to go all out like blankfire reenactors can. This I think is the main reason why we are farther behind than blankfire. Until airsoft catches on for an older crowd, blankfire will always be more authentic in look.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Dec 7, 2013 13:45:54 GMT -5
Honestly, if you have 75% correct webgear, and uniform items, and have stand ins that will make you look accurate at a glance from 10ft away, you are all good. You aren't going to find an event with everyone in 95% correct gear. If you really need your fill of stitch knot see events, blankfire is a great outlet. Ww2 airsoft is more like the little brother to blankfire. We strive to be like the blankfire guys accuracy wise, but we still have a lot of growing to go. Many airsofters in out hobby are young kids to young adults. They don't have the financial stability to afford to get all correct gear for events like their older blankfire brothers. I would love for blankfire and airsoft to one day be one in the same, but the friction from hardcore blankfire guys may not allow that to happen until ww2 airsoft is out of its infancy and closer to the scale of blankfire. Yes, I agree with 75-80% but some photos ive seen on the internet of ww2 airsofters can be horrid. But yes, as long as you follow the 10 foot rule, youre generally good. Shifty, there are plenty of under-18 blankfirers, myself included.
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shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on Dec 7, 2013 14:09:00 GMT -5
I'm not saying there aren't, I'm just saying around here, I've only ever seen over-18s. I think 75% is a good goal.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Dec 7, 2013 14:14:33 GMT -5
IMHO the goal should b3e 90%, but 75% should be the minimum to attend an event.
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Post by shiftysgarand on Dec 7, 2013 18:38:21 GMT -5
Again, I too would like high authenticity, but with all the young airsofters, due to budget restraints it isn't possible at this time.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 7, 2013 21:09:34 GMT -5
Impression is really the operative word. If the overall impression is.." This looks right" then obviously you're good to go. No glaring anachronistic oversights and everone clearly putting in the effort. The challenge is everone defines "looks right" differently. One of the other challenges is the more you know the harder it is for things to "look right". in many ways it really is a case of ignorance is bliss.
Guys can look darn good for not a lot of money. The key is to value shop and treasure hunt between events and fill in with loaner gear. I don't mind someone coming in with an incomplete look. We can fix that! What I hate are guys coming with an incomplete look who didn't even try and being resistant to wearing or using the items provided to them or deciding that the proper look isn't high speed enough so dumping it.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Dec 8, 2013 10:43:29 GMT -5
I agree, 2nd bat. You can find great deals for very little cost. You might not be 90% with a deal, but tis a start. You just gotta have some patience, and know where to find stuff.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 8, 2013 16:10:09 GMT -5
The deals are out there but require effort and patience. I regularly peruse thrift shops and antique malls, gun shows and garage sales and over the years have done quite well creating several outstanding impresions and over a dozen very decent looking set ups for NOT a lot of money. Buying everything new from ATF or the top quality providers is convenient and fast and truthfully provides a very very good look (once everything is soiled, a little worn and broken in) but with patienceand effort you can get there for 1/8th the money. Do your research so you know what's "right" and what constitutes a deal. If "close enough" is part of your mindset be comfortable that your "close enough" will pass muster with most (if not all) of your field mates.
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shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on Dec 8, 2013 17:27:42 GMT -5
Ebay is your friend guys, but be careful...
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