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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 17, 2014 22:50:30 GMT -5
Ever since I watched the Longest Day when I was nine, I wanted a German uniform. I do Heer, but I refuse to do SS. I am putting together a GI impression. But someone needs to play the bad guy. But when you take your mind set and put it into a German citizen, they could get bugged by an Allied impressionist for the same reason. It's history, and it needs to be played out correctly. Yes the Germans did shoot at US soldiers. But US soldiers shot at German soldiers. It's war. Terrible as it is, it's how it was. We don't don the uniform of the German military in support of National Socialist regime. We do it for history. Now I'm not trying to start hostilities either, but do you feel the same way about the Royal English Army during the Revolution? Or the confederate or even the Union Army? I don't know. That's just my two cents.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 18, 2014 9:35:37 GMT -5
Well, it was the SS that ran the concentration camps. The Heer wasn't as involved as you'd think. This is one of the reasons why I'd never do SS. But the public does think different. Yesterday actually, my friends had on GI uniforms and I had a German one and we walked around school. We got weird looks, but more like a "wtf are they wearing?" Looks. But when you do talk about the holocaust and why you'd wear the uniform of the perpetrators of the holocaust, you're talking about the SS. The motives of the Wehrmacht, more specifically Heer, was to fight for their country. Don't us Americans do the same? By wearing a Heer uniform, you are wearing the uniform if a German soldier. Not a Nazi murderer.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 18, 2014 9:36:40 GMT -5
Oh, but at blank fire or living history reenactments, the audience doesn't seem to care if you're German or not. They think the uniforms are cool
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Post by brownien on Mar 18, 2014 16:46:54 GMT -5
I believe a lot that do SS mostly do it because of the wider variation of camo patterns available. I personally have a set of SS Dot44 pattern tunic and pants. They were cheap so I figured I'd buy them. I like the pattern, but I agree that I am quite put off by the atrocities commited by the SS. Although I would like to clarify, that the Waffen SS was not in charge of the concentration camps, the Waffen SS was the SS's fighting force. It was on the front lines of combat. The regular SS units were the true "military police" force in control of the camps. Some of these regular SS units became Waffen SS units later in the war though. Either way, I don't like SS
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 18, 2014 17:39:43 GMT -5
Oh, and the Waffen SS committed many atrocities on the field. The Heer wasn't perfect either, but neither is any military. But as Brownien stated, many of the members of the Waffen SS were former concentration camp guards. Especially among the totenkopf divisions. The SS was a bad group of guys. Now many the SS impressionists say that it's justified because they are "portraying a unit with no war crimes". But that is comparable to saying "I'm a terrorist, but I haven't murdered anyone yet". The SS were still indoctrinated in nazi principles and would have gladly mutdered an entire village during an anti partisan role. There were members of the Heer who would do it, but not the whole organization. But most of the SS members would have. The Heer was indoctrinated to a point, but not much more than the average citizen. Now I don't mind SS impressionists, but I refuse to be one as I strongly dislike the original organization. Brownien, are you a Heer impressionist? Just out of curiosity.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 18, 2014 17:41:47 GMT -5
Woah. That's a longer post than I tout it'd be. But seriously. Look up the Oradour-sur-Glâne massacre. An entire French village wiped out by SS troops.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 18, 2014 18:26:53 GMT -5
Same here! Especially German stuff. German stuff isn't cheap. Russian stuff is.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 18, 2014 18:27:43 GMT -5
I actually might get some dot 44 just to wear with my modern kit. Just to be a little different.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Mar 18, 2014 19:29:08 GMT -5
Well there is a lack of pto uniforms in our florida group and in general the is usually a lack of IJA/N units at most pto events so i did this in part to get ahead of the curve and also because i like to recklessly run at the enemy when applicable.
When it comes down to wearing the stuff in public, majority of the time, unless you got swatzika's or ss patches nobody knows who you are. I (Due to boredom and wanting to test the public knowledge) wore my ija gear to college(we got people wearing random stuff like jedi knights, stormtroopers and other stuff every now and again) nobody knew what i was but one chick did compliment me so that was a thing.
If you think that was kind of a dick move, i wouldn't disagree but it was funny at how little people knew or even cared.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 18, 2014 20:23:46 GMT -5
Oh yeah. I walked around my high school campus with my Germanwalking out uniform. We got some weird looks. I was with some GIs, but still. We almost ran into the principal, but my American comrades pushed me around the corner before he could see me. But I don't think my principal wouldn't have minded really as he's a pretty cool guy and there were US soldiers with me.
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Post by brownien on Mar 18, 2014 21:32:51 GMT -5
Your principal surely wouldn't have minded as long as you were "captured" by by your GI friends! Lol And yup I do Heer. I aim to portray the average infantryman of the army. I have the regular m40 tunic and m37 pants. In the future I would like to do a FJ impression, there's something attracting about jumping out of a perfectly good airplane....
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 18, 2014 22:03:52 GMT -5
I wanna do LW field division or late war Kriegsmarine field division. Just to add a little spice to my kits. But by then I'll already have a Finnish and Polish impression. So yeah. I like unique kits a lot.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 18, 2014 22:04:47 GMT -5
Oh but back to my adventure, my history teacher loved it and I was "captured" by the GIs in front of his room. It was fun.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Mar 18, 2014 22:07:09 GMT -5
I think if you have multiple people from multiple sides, nobody can really freak out
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 18, 2014 22:11:10 GMT -5
Oh yeah. But they don't have the mindset we do. To the public, I'm not a historian wearing a German uniform, I'm a nazi wearing a nazi uniform and am racist (I'm not really, but that's just how the general public would see me). But if we have a big group with axis and allies, and acted well, then there shouldn't be a problem. One day I might actually do it with a lot of people. But to be on the safe side, I'll just get prior permission first.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 18, 2014 22:11:53 GMT -5
You are absolutely over thinking this. Whether US or enemy combatants (even SS) reenactors and WW2/ Korea/ Vietnam airsofters are playing Army. I was in the army during Vietnam and i do namsofting and frequently wear Viet Cong and NVA uniforms. Doing so is actually somewhat theorapedic (sp?). In tactical phases its actually easier for me wearing the enemy uniforms as targeting Americans is easier for me to realize I am playing then when targeting the " little people" in black or reed green.
There are many players who refuse to depict SS and I respect that but as long as players remember they are in a role it is no different then dressing kids up as pirates. In reality pirates were often horrible despicble individuals but putting your children in the costumes and watching them relish in the fantasy is harmless fun. As for wearing German uniforms in public i am quite uncomfortable with that and strongly recommend against it. Most bystanders will not intuitively know you're harmless intent and the likelihood to offend is very very high.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 18, 2014 22:15:47 GMT -5
Yeah. That's why I would do it with a lot of GIs. But it could put a bad name out for us.
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Post by brownien on Mar 18, 2014 22:40:52 GMT -5
I understand that at its most basic concept, reenacting IS basically dress up. I have gone to several parades in my US impressions, and I get TONS of people thanking me. its really nice to know that people appreciate that I am a reenactor, and I am trying to teach the public not to forget those brave soldiers who gave everything to protect their country, and the countries of all those who felt the tyrrany of Hitler. That to me is rewarding. They fought for love of country, just like any wehrmacht soldat, or brit, or russian. Once you talk about WSS though, they were fighting for Hitler. That is why I dont want to portray SS/WSS. www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK2WJd5bXFgwww.youtube.com/watch?v=bWGTL_Gdav4&list=PL8A6C4CF9D37196E7&index=9
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Post by volkssturm on Mar 18, 2014 22:48:25 GMT -5
I second what 2d Bat said. If you appear in uniform in public you really want to be in a group and participating in at least a minimally organized event, like living history, with appropriate public notice. There's enough crazy people out there that you don't want to be mistaken for one of them.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 18, 2014 23:25:05 GMT -5
This is true. I kinda agree now. It is a bit of a sensitive subject for many people too. So yeah.
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Post by insterburger on Mar 19, 2014 14:57:31 GMT -5
A lot of interesting observations. I happen to be someone who would never appear in an SS impression under any circumstances, but I do know some very good people who come to games as SS.
2nd Bat, I do follow your analogy about dressing as a pirate, but have to disagree somewhat. Yes, pirates in real life were mostly cruel, needlessly violent and completely without the slightest moral compass, but at the end of the day they were just common criminals in search of financial gain-- organized criminals, yes, but just a band of thieves. The SS was something much worse: An entire organization that was built around political indoctrination into a culture of hate and ethnic arrogance that was completely incompatible with any standard of human decency. Pirates were capitalists gone wrong. The SS were the right arm of Nazi hatred and key perps in the Holocaust.
That's not to say some people didn't join the SS for "good" reasons. It was often the best, or in the case of foreign nationals, the only opportunity for virulent anti-Communists from across Europe-- many of whom may have agreed with little or none of Hitler's political or racial policies-- to get into the front lines of what many (falsely) viewd as a battle between Christian Europe and Godless Stalinism on the Eastern Front. But it's impossible to get around the fact that for the most part the SS-- Waffen or Algemeine-- was deeply steepd in Hitler's truly disgusting belief system.
And then there's the Heer. Yes, they did some bad things, but as was stated above, so did we. Interestingly, the worst excesses of the regular German Army were in the East, where it was an ugly tit-for-tat battle against the brutal and ruthless Red Army, just as our soldiers were at their worst when provoked by Japanese atrocities. So while no army is blameless, the overall identity of the German Wehmacht was that of a professionally officered army that employed conscripted citizens who were simply doing their duty to their country by reporting for duty when drafted. Not too different from us.
Again, I do know many good people who portray Waffen-SS, and SS impressions are more than welcome in our unit (although hate speech or glorification of Nazism is not). I do think that the more one learns about what the Wehrmacht was and stood for, the less offensive they become, and the more one learns about the SS and what they were and stood for, the more offensive they become. Some people who portray SS may grow to regret doing so some day. And while I would never tell someone not to play as an SS trooper or take offense at them doing so, I would recommend thinking carefully and becoming conversant in history before donning the SS uniform.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Mar 19, 2014 15:20:46 GMT -5
Just a small thought for people who think that SS was all bad and Heer was good, look up the 707. infantrie div.
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Post by volkssturm on Mar 19, 2014 17:25:06 GMT -5
And then you have public relations nightmares like this: talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/minneapolis-nazi-partyI'm not making any judgments one way or the other, since I don't know anything about the people putting on or attending the party. I would hope they're just into history, role playing and dressing up, and not into the political side. But the reaction shows what a sensitive issue this is with a lot of people.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Mar 19, 2014 17:43:31 GMT -5
Its the HRA. Many good people in it. Just bored, butthurt reporters that seem to want to stir up controversy.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 19, 2014 17:52:32 GMT -5
It was already stated that the Heer wasn't perfect. They did bad stuff. Many of their antipartisan acts could get ugly. But the SS was far worse. As stated above, the SS fought for Hitler (maybe less so with foreign volunteer units). But the original units could get pretty bad. The SS did things partly for their country, but a great deal for the nazi party. I have seen many SS impressionists defend the SS and their actions by saying that they are portraying a unit with no war crimes. But as I compared it before, that is similar to saying "I'm a terrorist who hasn't murdered anyone yet". While the Heer wasn't perfect, I am very put off by many of the horrible actions of the SS. During the Oradour-sûr-Glâne massacre, they decimated an ENTIRE VILLAGE. They rounded up all the women and children in a church and blew them up. They threw a living baby into the village bakers oven. They crushed another infants head under a toilet seat. They shot all the men in a barn. Less than ten of the original inhabitants survived. Now I know this is gruesome and graphic, and some of you may have wished that I left the baby part out, it's part of what their crimes were.
Also, when they would execute prisoners, they would aim at the legs and chew them up. That way they could slowly die. Them they would douse them in gasoline and burn them. I am VERY put off by these crimes. I'm not saying that no other military did this, but the SS did it in more consistency than any other army/private military, with the exception of the Red Army, in WWII.
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Post by insterburger on Mar 19, 2014 18:02:10 GMT -5
Just a small thought for people who think that SS was all bad and Heer was good, look up the 707. infantrie div. I don't think anyone is saying that the Heer was all good. There are plenty of examples of WH behaving badly, as there are examples from nearly every army. The 707th was indeed notorious for their war crimes while engaged in anti-partisan activities. Those types of operations tended to draw out the worst in the people who engaged in them-- see the deeply disturbing account of Reserve Police Batallion 101 as told in the book Ordinary Men. But I think it's worth noting that the 707th was quite the exception in the Heer, while "clean" units were the exception in the SS. Beyond that, it boils down to the basic organization, identity, and reason for being of each branch of arms: The Heer was a national army not terribly unlike other national armies. The SS was a political army organized by Nazi leadership for the specific purpose of having a fighting force that could be completely under their control and fully indoctrinated into their ideology. That's simply history. Isaah, rather than throwing "well the other guys were bad too!" red herrings into the argument, I think there would be a huge benefit from hearing what has drawn you to portraying Waffen-SS, and how you reconcile their political agenda and reputation for atrocities with your own sense of morality and honor. Since you are one of the upstanding, good, and intelligent SS-players I was referring to in my previous post, I believe your thinking on this would be hugely valuable to this discussion.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 19, 2014 18:22:43 GMT -5
I agree. While there were national socialists in the Heer, you got to take into account that in the SS EVERYONE was a national socialist (maybe a few exceptions, like foreign volunteer units). Part of their training was indoctirinication of national socialist ideals. When you were in the SS, you were in the national socialist party. You were a member. So not only were you morally a national socialist, but you were officially one too.
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Post by princeofpinoys on Mar 19, 2014 22:40:16 GMT -5
To me its more a human thing, we all are people and we all have stories to tell, and its interesting how we demonize our enemies when in reality they could be just like us (in a person to person way, not as a fascist/communist/ capitalist way).
Meaning they have a wife and kids, their just to fight or protect their country, etc
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 19, 2014 22:48:11 GMT -5
Yes. But there is a difference between Heer and SS
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Mar 20, 2014 5:33:19 GMT -5
For me, its about historical interest. I usually try to do foreign volunteer, which is under-portrayed and unique, but still making up a large part of the fighting force. Because its all history, I really don't have a problem doing LAH, or many waffen SS divs. The only real problem I'd have would be doing TV.
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