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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 20, 2014 9:31:31 GMT -5
I really don't mind SS impressionists. I just would never be one as I strongly dislike the original para military group. But you do need some SS impressionists on the field to make it accurate. But now it seems like SS outnumbers Heer on the field. Lol. But I do know some SS impressionists that are actually national socialist. Do yeah.
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Post by shiftsup on Mar 20, 2014 13:56:42 GMT -5
Interesting topic. Definitely being over-thought though. WWII re-enacting and WWII airsoft offer a very sanitized experience of conflict. Neither are focused on the politics of the era nor do re-enactments or games tolerate the darker episodes of the era. Nobody should be re-enacting any war crimes of any magnitude. These are imitation battles that are more or less force on force war games with a wardrobe requirement. A re-enactment of Oradour-sûr-Glâne isn't happening ever.
There is no indoctrination going on and if there is you should remove yourself from that environment and not participate. My personal experience with those that re-enact Waffen SS generally get involved because they prefer their uniforms (camo) and their well documented reputation as fierce and effective fighters. People also like to play the "bad guy". However, the "bad guy" image is only conveyed by the uniform and not by any actions.
Re-enacting only goes so far. The emphasis is generally on first and foremost appearance. Some re-enactors that are part of a more involved group may work on period mannerisms and learn the language and other parts of the immersion. However if one were to take on the politics and belief system of the era they'd be expelled pretty fast.
This hobby is supposed to be fun and enjoyable in spite of the fact that involves one of the darker periods of modern history.
As a side note. The notion that the Wehrmacht (specifically Das Deutche Heer) as a whole was an army not unlike other armies of the period is a fallacy. Their participation in wwii, while not as sensational or macabre as the Waffen SS or the SS as a whole, is without a doubt a partaking in criminal and gruesome activity on a grievous scale. The belief that the Wehrmacht (read again as Heer) was simply doing their job as soldiers with honour and defending their country is arguably an appeasement to Germany due to the West requiring Germany to re-arm due to the Cold War. Simply put, a new effective army for Germany during the Cold War could not have been created without veterans of wwii. And labelling them as criminals wouldn't be proactive. However, in their defense, the war waged in the east, the methods used there had their origins in the 19th century. It certainly wasn't anything new. The only difference was the scale.
As well, the notion that all Waffen SS were members of the NSDAP. Maybe 10% to 15% were at any given time. Very unlikely that it was any higher than that. Given the fact that many Waffen SS soldiers were conscripts, very young and only Ethnic German being a party member would be unlikely or not allowed (e.g 9th SS had difficulty recruiting, many original members - 60% to 70% were 18 years old and 70% were conscripts, many of which were ethnic Germans from Hungary). Even "notorious" Waffen SS soldiers such as Joachim Peiper weren't party members. Given that Peiper was one of Himmler's aid that should be surprising. Also fairly certain that the oath that most Waffen SS member swore to was not unlike the oath sworn to by the other elements of the German Armed Forces. An oath to a leader not a country or a constitution.
In regards to indoctrination, it would be quite difficult not to be affected regardless if you served in the armed forces or not. Given the control the State had over daily life for over a decade with its compulsory organizations (RAD, HJ) etc etc.
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Post by insterburger on Mar 20, 2014 15:35:37 GMT -5
Shiftsup, you make some excellent points, but what I think you may be missing is the fact that uniforms represent something. Yes, the SS were fierce and effective fighters. Yes, their uniforms were "cool." But they were also a highly indoctrinated force that was created to serve the Nazi Party OVER their nation. As for the Heer, there were some "true believers" there, too, but hearing many firsthand accounts and knowing several German vets personally, I can tell you that there was also tremendous anti-Nazi sentiment throughout, and Nazi indoctrination among the general population was spotty at best. In fact, this political unreliability was precisely the reason the Waffen-SS was raised in the first place.
As far as condemning the Wehrmacht, yes, a long laundry list of their excesses could be written. But the contention that they were an inherently genocidal organization is truly revisionism that presupposes an unrealistically vast conspiracy to protect the Wehrmacht after the war. In point of fact there were many top WH officers, as well as underlings, who were justifiably tried for their involvement in war crimes. If you read some of the primary documents from the US Government concerned with tracking down and prosecuting German war criminals, it will go a long way to dispelling the idea that they were under our protection (with certain notable exceptions). The Nuremburg tribunal was more than happy to hang as many Germans as suited them, and they were very clear in assessing that the Wehrmacht was not an inherently criminal organization. We can second guess that assessment all day long and ascribe all sorts of nefarious motives to the justices there, but that to me is the equivalent of all the silliness surrounding the JFK conspiracy theories and the dismissal of the Warren Report's basic conclusions. I know it's not as much fun as a bombshell revelation, but sometimes-- most of the time-- history is just as it appears to be.
One place where I completely agree with you: This hobby is a highly sanitized evocation of combat, and is a game, not war: it has a lot more in common with baseball or badminton than it does real combat. War is ugly, war is, as famously said, hell. WWII was a nasty, brutal affair on all fronts and for all nations. At every game I'm in, I try to remind other players to remember to honor the people who fought and died honorably in it.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 20, 2014 17:48:53 GMT -5
I agree with intersburger. And I think shifts up misunderstood part of what I was trying to say. The SS was indoctrinated far more in nazi ideology than the Wehrmacht and the populace. While the populace did get brainwashed by propaganda, part of the training of the SS were courses on the Nazi ideals and goals. And when I was referring to most of the SS being members of the party, I was saying that because the SS was a branch of the party. So therefore they are a part. And when I talk about this, I refer to the original SS when you signed up, had to be Aryan, had to prove your ancestry back to 1750 and if there was a trace of Jewish blood you would get rejected. This is the SS I am referring to. The early war before conscripts started to come in in significant numbers around 1942ish area. This was when the SS was at its worst, and best. This was when they were they were the most elite and a crack unit, but also more National Socialist. It's the actions that deter me. While I'm sure that if I did reenact SS that I'd never carry our a massacre, it's just the idea and sentiment about the people they were. Not saying all SS members were bad, but the SS was a bad group. This is why I'd never reenact SS. That, and we need more Heer and less FJ and SS.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Mar 20, 2014 19:10:51 GMT -5
One point though: if you're referring to the 'early ss", why? The time you had to be Aryan, etc., was the late 30s. In that case, the Heer had more fanatics than the SS- the SS was looked down upon by even the fanatics as more of a drinking buddy group than a true combat organization. Moreso, that SS isn't even a fighting force(minus the VT). Thus, why bring it up?
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 20, 2014 20:00:50 GMT -5
Ah excuse me. I should have said Early War SS, not Early SS associated with the SA. A book I recommend is Black Angels by Rupert Butler. And I totally forgot about Wiking. First international volunteer unit in late '40.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 20, 2014 20:01:49 GMT -5
Disregard my last post everyone
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Post by insterburger on Mar 20, 2014 20:08:26 GMT -5
Yes, the Waffen-SS was not really built up into what could be called a true fighting force until the interim between the invasions of Poland and France.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 20, 2014 22:00:08 GMT -5
They participated in the invasion of Poland. Just not in too significant of numbers.
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Post by shiftsup on Mar 20, 2014 22:46:55 GMT -5
insterburger, nowhere did I state that the Wehrmacht was "an inherently genocidal organization". What I wrote was that their participation in wwii was "a partaking in criminal and gruesome activity on a grievous scale". I might be mistaken, but IIRC correctly the Wehrmacht was never indicted as a criminal organization as the NSDAP, SA and SS were at Nuremburg. IIRC, the High Command was indicted as a criminal organization at Nuremburg but wasn't considered one due to the decision that it did not meet the pre-determined requirements of an organization by The Charter. However, I am fairly certain that when the Wehrmacht was officially disbanded in late 1945 or early 1946 it was declared and unlawful organization.
We both know that members of the High Command that were indicted at additional Nuremburg trials were almost all found guilty of participating or ordering the murder, torture and deportation of civilians.
Nowhere do I mention that the Wehrmacht was under "our" protection. I certainly don't believe that nonsense. What I am stating is that due to the Cold War the West toned down their rhetoric in regards to those that served in the Wehrmacht in wwii due to the requirement that Germany re-arm itself. This type of speak is quite popular when it comes to Axis re-enactors. I am not judging it as I don't have much fault with Axis re-enactors. It simply is what it is although I find the rhetoric to be part fantasy and part anachronism (just my opinion). If needed I willingly will do Axis on the field if the numbers require it. Same goes for living history. Would I wear the kit outside of an event? No. However, same rules apply to my Allied kit(s).
I too have spoken with German vets. Mind you this was nearly 20 years ago. My personal experience with them overall it seemed that they were ambivalent about National Socialism yet had contempt for Hitler and much love and pride for German people. I always attributed this to hindsight being 20/20. I was never convinced the same words would have been said by these vets in 1942 or earlier.
And yes those SS uniforms represent something. Not unlike any other uniform of a belligerent in wwii. However, in the context of re-enactment it's more or less an artifact. It doesn't have the same charge given what it's purpose is in the re-enactment world. And what I meant by "bad buy" was more or less the look and on a very basic level. The skull and god forbid the Star Wars connection (for some reason I cannot put into words)
And ssjoe, you're either a member of the NSDAP or you're not. What you are stating is arguably the same as stating that all US soldiers in Viet Nam voted for LBJ. Was the Waffen SS more fanatical and indoctrinated than their Heer counterparts? Yes. Were they "bad"? That goes without saying. Is it a moral dilemma to appear as one in the context of Living History or WWII Airsoft given the context and the limitations and focus on certain elements of wwii history? Unlikely.
If the above is a derail. I apologise.
The OP mentioned something about using original Axis kit and its potential to offend IIRC. A lot of that stuff is most likely bringbacks by a vet that ended up for sale by a relative in an estate sale. Fairly certain my collection has at the very least some of that in it. Worst case scenario you helped a vets family by buying it.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 20, 2014 23:50:27 GMT -5
Shifts up, my statement is not saying the same as all Nam soldiers voted for Lyndon B Johnson. First off, Our government is set up differently than the government of Nazi Germany. Since the SS is a corps of the nazi party (the US Army is not a branch of the Democratic Party, so your statement is very arguable). I will rephrase what I was saying. Every member may not be a member of the nazi party (every American soldier may not be a US citizen) but the SS is still part of the party. If you understand what in trying to say. But the interests and motives of the SS are different from the Heer. Similar, but different. While portraying history as an SS member, you are not condoning nazism. This I agree with. But I personally will never do it (I was never saying it was wrong for others to do it) as I do not wish to portray murderers. While the Heer did commit some atrocities, it wasn't to the point to pin them as war criminals. While deportation is wrong, I do not completely hold them accountable. They did not know where they were getting sent. The feeling they had while deporting the Jews is comparable to the feelings many Americans have while deporting illegal immigrants (I do not at all intend to start anything political). They didn't deport for hatred, but because they thought they were doing a service to their country. When your country is giving you only one opinion and side of an argument, it is kind of hard to form your own, and these people never got the chance to form their own.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Mar 21, 2014 5:34:51 GMT -5
Also, the Waffen SS did not participate in Poland. the SS-VT did.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Mar 21, 2014 5:44:53 GMT -5
Also, the waffen ss was not deporting jews. So what is that claim all about? We're staying on the WSS here, not the TV, SD, or any other branches.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Mar 21, 2014 13:51:18 GMT -5
I honestly wouldn't mind wearing original ss gear...but 9000 for a tunic, >15k for a smock...yeah, Ill pass...
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Mar 21, 2014 14:05:42 GMT -5
And yes, I misunderstood. However, if "deporations" aren't that bad, that doesn't that justify many actions of the WSS?
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Post by volkssturm on Mar 21, 2014 16:50:49 GMT -5
Except that the "deportations" were to concentration camps or ghettos like Theresienstadt, which were basically holding camps on the way to the concentration camps.
After the war German officers like Manstein went to great lengths to distance the Heer from the actions of the SS and the "Final Solution." Historians will probably never agree on just how much complicity they had. The problem for the Heer is that the units that were conducting massacres and rounding up Jews and other desirables depended on the Heer for their logistical support and sometimes for troops to provide cordons. If the Heer didn't know what was going on, it could only be because they made a concerted effort not to know. Then again, when you're trying to keep the Russians from overrunning your front lines, how much effort do you expend protecting enemy civilians? It's not a simple problem.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 21, 2014 17:16:37 GMT -5
An example about the difference between SS and Heer is that during the invasion of Poland, two SS members:one a policeman, another I believe verfungenstruppe, rounded 50 Jews into a synagogue (may have been some other building) and shot them. The regimental commander in the area (he was Heer) wanted them court martialled for their actions, but they got pardoned by the government. And at this time is when the court system of the Wehrmacht and SS finished breaking off.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 21, 2014 17:19:35 GMT -5
Also, the Waffen SS did not participate in Poland. the SS-VT did. Ah, yes. The verfungenstruppe. I thought we were talking about SS in general, not just WSS. Did I say WSS? If I did, my bad. But the verfungenstruppe the predecessor to the WSS. The name Waffen SS didn't become official until either before or during the invasion of France.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 21, 2014 17:24:19 GMT -5
And yes, I misunderstood. However, if "deporations" aren't that bad, that doesn't that justify many actions of the WSS? The thing is, the SS knew what was going on in the concentration camps. I'm not saying the Heer knew nothing about the camps, but they didn't really know what all was going in in there (I'm pretty sure high ranking generals did). Maybe not every SS soldier knew what was happening, but they sure had an idea. Even more of an idea than the Heer.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Mar 21, 2014 23:30:29 GMT -5
Eh, saying that one group knew more or less is pretty far fetched. pretty much everyone knew what was happening, and just chose not to. I wouldn't say that heer knew any less than SS. Actually, it is most likely the other way around, considering more SS were foreign than Heer.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 22, 2014 1:21:58 GMT -5
I'm talking about German SS units.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Mar 22, 2014 1:29:46 GMT -5
Well, than that's hardly talking about the SS, considering there were relatively few german divisions in the SS.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 22, 2014 3:59:25 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that. There were still many German divisions. Many volunteer divisions, but many German ones also. I would not say there was a relatively small amount of German divisions.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Mar 22, 2014 17:40:08 GMT -5
Less than half.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 22, 2014 20:02:54 GMT -5
Yes I know, about a third. But that isn't hardly any units. Well technically if you include ethnic Germans, then over half. But part of training of any SS soldier is being taught nazi ideals.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 22, 2014 20:05:13 GMT -5
You know what, this is a dumb argument. I don't like SS (I don't have any problems with SS impressionists, just the original organization). I say we end this before it gets out of hand.
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Post by insterburger on Mar 23, 2014 13:01:39 GMT -5
But part of training of any SS soldier is being taught nazi ideals. Almost completely right. The only exceptions to this were the two Latvian Waffen-SS divisions. The Latvians had wanted to raise their own liberation army, but Hitler wouldn't allow it. He conceded to allow them to form one division, followed by another, under the auspices of the Waffen-SS. Those divisions were the only SS units that were not subject to political training and pro-Nazi indoctrination. It is telling that after WWII, when the SS as a whole, including the Waffen-SS, was condemned as a criminal organization, those two divisions were specifically named as being considered to be not criminal in nature. The units consisted largely of forced conscripts, which is a big reason they weren't indoctrinated, and part of the reason they were considered to be non-criminal after the war. As SS units go, they were among the cleanest. A handful of the original members had been parts of sleazebag fascist Latvian anti=partisan units, but from their formation as combat divisions there are no serious claims of any war crimes attributed to these units.
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Post by brownien on Mar 23, 2014 13:29:07 GMT -5
Actually now that you say that Insterberger, I may just put my Dot44 uniform to use as a 19th Waffen SS Grenadier Div Impression. To me that makes the most sense. A conscript soldat, and foriegn as well! That should make 1ssah happy as well!
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 23, 2014 15:09:04 GMT -5
Actually now that you say that Insterberger, I may just put my Dot44 uniform to use as a 19th Waffen SS Grenadier Div Impression. To me that makes the most sense. A conscript soldat, and foriegn as well! That should make 1ssah happy as well! It was a late war unit anyway. Dot44 would work.
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Post by brownien on Mar 23, 2014 16:00:16 GMT -5
Not to derail the subject, but are there any other units under similar circumstances? The 33rd Waffen SS French Legion? (May have typed that wrong)
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