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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 11, 2014 20:04:45 GMT -5
not by much, if you find it at a local hardware store. And why would we need to take it down if we own land, which is the point of discussion, is it not? Moreso, if land isn't owned (like now), then, well, setting all that crap up is more hassle than it's worth. Recruitment is more important than worrying about barbed wire IMHO.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on May 11, 2014 20:41:05 GMT -5
not by much, if you find it at a local hardware store. And why would we need to take it down if we own land, which is the point of discussion, is it not? Moreso, if land isn't owned (like now), then, well, setting all that crap up is more hassle than it's worth. Recruitment is more important than worrying about barbed wire IMHO. I rather not even think about using real barb wire. personally, I don't want the insurance responsibility! Secondly, I'm always thinking along the lines of safety first! The last event my guys and I went to two of our guys got caught on barb wire and tore their cloths. It isn't fun to tear $90.00 USD reproduction pants on real barb wire because you are trying to have fun. This is all I'm going to say on the subject. Would real barb wire be more realistic? Sure... so would real land mines. However, again... it is probably better just to use the simulated stuff rather than the real deal.
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Post by insterburger on May 11, 2014 20:41:36 GMT -5
So people want to bring vehicles into the hobby, but are scared of getting hurt on barbed wire? That's a bit of hypocricy It's not so much the barbed wire itself as the legalities. There are always going to be inherent dangers in the game (that's why we have waivers), but putting up obstacles that are intentionally designed with the intent to injure-- especially if orders demand that players try to breach those obstacles-- is just inviting the vultures to circle.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 11, 2014 20:47:44 GMT -5
I know the GWA has done it for years, never had any problems.
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Post by ssgjoe on May 11, 2014 21:10:54 GMT -5
not by much, if you find it at a local hardware store. And why would we need to take it down if we own land, which is the point of discussion, is it not? Moreso, if land isn't owned (like now), then, well, setting all that crap up is more hassle than it's worth. Recruitment is more important than worrying about barbed wire IMHO. Because I thought we were talking about props that could be moved from field to field. If you look at previous posts, you'll see it Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on May 12, 2014 6:40:25 GMT -5
Let’s keep on discussing props! I’m only saying that real barb wire will not be permitted on any fields owned by myself in New York for the purpose of enhancing an event. What other people do is up to them. I’ll explain very briefly why I’m against things like real barb wire below if you are interested in my reasoning.
On the topic of waivers, they do not hold up well in a court of law due to a new precedent set in Connecticut Supreme Court.
That means specifically, that even if a person signed a waiver that they would not sue, they can sue because their expectation is that what they are doing is generally safe; regardless that the waiver says it is not! So in the event that an Airsoft player becomes injured on barb wire, or through means that they have no ability or right to control. They can sue! This is problematic because it is debatable what a person has control over? No, it is not. The only people that have actual authority to remove hazards from a property are the property owner! You say… well they could have just stayed away from it? Not always… the person injured can say I didn’t see it or I didn’t realize how dangerous it was and etc.
Bottom line is that for a field owner, you need good liability insurance coupled with a waiver for what a waiver is worth. The next best thing is preventative measures to ensure people do not get hurt. That is why we have FPS limitations calculated in joules of force. That is why we have ratted eye protection requirements and etc. That is why when we do an event in New York we have extra water and food and even many times volunteer first responders like myself.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on May 12, 2014 9:14:11 GMT -5
Let’s keep on discussing props! I’m only saying that real barb wire will not be permitted on any fields owned by myself in New York for the purpose of enhancing an event. What other people do is up to them. I’ll explain very briefly why I’m against things like real barb wire below if you are interested in my reasoning. On the topic of waivers, they do not hold up well in a court of law due to a new precedent set in Connecticut Supreme Court. That means specifically, that even if a person signed a waiver that they would not sue, they can sue because their expectation is that what they are doing is generally safe; regardless that the waiver says it is not! So in the event that an Airsoft player becomes injured on barb wire, or through means that they have no ability or right to control. They can sue! This is problematic because it is debatable what a person has control over? No, it is not. The only people that have actual authority to remove hazards from a property are the property owner! You say… well they could have just stayed away from it? Not always… the person injured can say I didn’t see it or I didn’t realize how dangerous it was and etc. Bottom line is that for a field owner, you need good liability insurance coupled with a waiver for what a waiver is worth. The next best thing is preventative measures to ensure people do not get hurt. That is why we have FPS limitations calculated in joules of force. That is why we have ratted eye protection requirements and etc. That is why when we do an event in New York we have extra water and food and even many times volunteer first responders like myself. This is of immense importance for anyone trying to set up and run a airsoft venue. Liability insurance, wavers, and safety precautions needed to run a field should be a topic all of its own. Since I myself am considering doing this on my own property the possibility of getting sued is something I have running around in the back of my mind. I know that generally we are fairly safe when we play, and God forbid if something like a serious injury or fatality did happen at a game one of us hosts. But when a bunch of people get together and start shooting projectiles and throwing pyro's and tripping over obstacles the odds go up exponentially. It would be great if a field owner or some one who has run events could start a topic about legalities and safety for others who want to start running games themselves. A little experience and advice would be greatly appreciated. As far as things like real barb wire is concerned, don't go there, listen to Raimund. Its not worth the pain and effort and price to install such things. Take it from some one who has done farm work installing fences and working with barb wire, you wont enjoy it. Barb wire is cruel and meant to do one thing, cause pain. Lets stay with props that are harmless. I wouldnt worry about people ignoring the fake barbwire, that should be in the rules, just like magazine limits and such that you cant go through it. Besides, that wouldn't be cool to destroy someones prop like that. Most of us are adult enough to show respect for the game and its rules, I would hope. If not, then you probably wont get invited back.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on May 12, 2014 10:17:31 GMT -5
You know Jerry, with some proper fore-thought you can put the barb-wire traps and obstacles on the field in such a way that they serve as more than just a barricade to be easily crossed. Below is a diagram of, one way how to do it, so that players won't want to run through the traps quickly. If you take note, the wire is positioned at the halfway point for the typical range of airsoft guns. What this does is prevent attackers from running right up to the firing positions getting into point blank range with their airsoft guns. Yet, it is still close enough to throw a grenade at them. Done properly, as a field manager trying to ensure fun takes place for both teams. I would leave a vulnerable approach to the firing positions or two for the attacking team to explore.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 12, 2014 11:50:36 GMT -5
I started a seperate thread on waivers, safety issues, liability and barracks lawyers discusions elsewhere. As stated lets keep this discussion focused on props and running a venue.
With regard to wire I had made some very simple bangalore torpedoes out of OD painted sections of PVS pipe. In my mission set up the assaulting force had to conduct their assault and to breach the wire (in my case strands of twind) they had to slide the tube sectiond under the wire and pull a string routed down the tubes that set off smoke at the enemy end of the " bangalore torpedoes".
For a vietnam themed event. The NVA made wood ladders which they rushed up and dropped over the twine obstacles in order to cross. thanks to intensive supporting fire the attackers in both cases succeeded in breeching the wire lthough in both cases thats about the limit of their attack.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on May 12, 2014 12:47:49 GMT -5
In my opinion, real barbed wire isn't worth the risk of falling, pain getting cught on and so on. Yes you can do a lot more damage with vehicles but unless you're deaf, most people hear the vehicles and move out of the way. Yes GWA has used real barbed wire but they are all at least 18 or older I believe. In airsoft, that is not the case. You only need to be 18 to purchase said replica but you can be 12 and play airsoft. Yes places will have different age restrictions but I have only seen a few insanely "hardcore" MILSIM events with a minimum age of 18 and some other more casual airsoft events with 18 y/o restrictions.
You also have to note that people(from my experience) want or typically have a much more "chill" experience most of the time when they are airsofting. Yes people at milsim may be less "chill" but they are looking more for people then environmental hazards in most cases.
I can't say it is the same for BF events as I have not attended such n event but I feel like environment is much more important in BF events then in airsoft events. You can speak on environment importance since I have no experience in this.
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Post by patrickl29th on May 12, 2014 14:36:19 GMT -5
But here's the thing, at blank fire events they have barbed wire. The whole point of barbed wire is to prevent the attackers. If you see barb wire you avoid it. I find it hard to believe how people get injured from barb wire because like I said your not supposed to run threw it.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on May 12, 2014 15:35:38 GMT -5
people trip, accidents happen and if it's fake barbed wire, less worry about stuff like that and it could still get cut
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 12, 2014 15:46:07 GMT -5
Accidents could happen even easier with BBs, yet people don't seem to worry about them. Same thing with vehicles.
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Post by ssgjoe on May 12, 2014 15:47:24 GMT -5
But the thing is you may not run through barbed wire, I may not run through the barbed wire, but there are some stupid people that will. Also, most blank fire events require people to be at least 18+, 16+ with parental consent. At airsoft games you get people as young as 12 running around. Because of the age difference I feel you need to be more careful because a parent of a 12 year old kid is more likely to sue than the parent if a 16-17 year old. Vehicles are also much more supervised than barbed wire. Barbed wire is often overlooked.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 12, 2014 16:06:57 GMT -5
Fair enough. However, if someone is stupid enough to run through barbed wire, theyre probably also stupid enough to shoot themselves point blank with a 400FPS gun to "see how it feels"
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Post by ssgjoe on May 12, 2014 16:50:23 GMT -5
It's not that they're stupid, but that they're adventurous. I'm not against having barbed wire, but I can definitely see where they're coming from. My friend and I (back when he had a ranch) would run through the barbed wire at his place quite often. We didn't get hurt really, but if you have 50+ kids running around all pumped on adrenaline and feeling invincible, and with barbed wire that is meant to do more than keep cattle out, then that's where problems arise.
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Post by patrickl29th on May 12, 2014 17:42:04 GMT -5
Fair enough. However, if someone is stupid enough to run through barbed wire, theyre probably also stupid enough to shoot themselves point blank with a 400FPS gun to "see how it feels" I tried that before lol
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Post by ssgjoe on May 12, 2014 18:11:52 GMT -5
I almost did. Then my friend did it before me and I quickly decided not to.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 12, 2014 18:42:22 GMT -5
Typical you Patrick...wait, the barbed wire or the gun?
On a serious note, nonetheless why not just use barbed wire? After all, were reenacting here, thus, you should do it right IMHO. With fake barbed wire, it becomes more like a cheesy movie set than a true reenactment.
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Post by brownien on May 12, 2014 18:46:26 GMT -5
On real barbed wire, I went to an event, where there was an old barbed wire fence along the edge of a field, in the middle of the AO. Only a 3 ft section was still standing, and while I was trying to flank the field I got caught in it. I was lucky I caught my balance quickly, and managed to only sustain some tears to my trousers, rather than falling completely over and possibly hitting my head or breaking something, or getting a burr into my skin. Even if you put up real barbed wire obsticles in plain view, to deny an area, there is a chance that someone's attention could be drawn away from the barbed wire by either being shot at, or trying to flank, and get caught in the wire. It's a risk that I really don't see as a worthwhile chance to take. In blankfire, nothing's getting shot AT you, there's no real incentive to rush for cover like in airsoft. We need to put safety first.
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shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on May 12, 2014 18:49:25 GMT -5
Because real barbed wire gets expensive fast. Not only because of its cost and potential lawsuits, but also reproduction uniforms are not cheap. I would not be happy if I tore my M42s on barbed wire, and had to buy a new pair. With fake barbed wire, it becomes much cheaper for everyone because of decreased uniform turnaround. EDIT: Nate, you beat me to it.
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Post by insterburger on May 12, 2014 19:31:11 GMT -5
What's more, even with the inherent risks in things, a lot of what decides the merits of legal action is the "reasonable expectation" of safety. If you are making efforts to keep players as safe as possible within the parameters of the game and something goes awry or someone does something stupid, that's one thing. If you put up obstacles that are intentionally designed to injure, that's another. Yes, we are re-enacting, but we are also playing a game. Those two factors need to be kept in balance.
This side discussion should really shift to a separate thread, though.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 12, 2014 19:31:48 GMT -5
But, why dive for cover behind barbed wire? About uniforms, I agree uniforms aren't cheap, and its annoying to tear one. but seriously, during the war, you see totally wrecked uniforms. if it gets town, just patch it up, which can be done in 5 minutes.
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Post by brownien on May 12, 2014 19:52:30 GMT -5
But what doesn't patch up quick in 5 mins is skin, flesh, tendons, concussions and the like. Like I said, safety first. If we wee fighting for our lives, that's one thing, but this is airsoft. We aren't intentionally trying to hurt each other like in real war. With that logic LSSah, Blankfire reenactors should be using real ammo! I'm all for realism, but you are all my friends, and as an event coordinator, I would never want to put any of you in any intentional danger, even if there is only a slight chance something could happen
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on May 12, 2014 20:20:33 GMT -5
What Brownian said above should be the final word on real barb wire. Lets change the subject.
I was thinking of a design today for using recycled 2 inch building foam which has a masonry finish on one side(recycled from the roof system of a school)to create pillboxes/bunkers. I can get the foam insulation boards from a local salvage guy for real cheap. (Im actually using it in my house that I am building). It would consist of 4 side panels, and 2 roof panels. Dimensions would be a 6'x6', 4' high box. 3 sides would have firing slits cut into it and it would have a door cut in for entry in the back. It would disassemble into 6 pieces for storage and transport. The foam could be glued to a 1/2" plylwood backing with 2/4 strips attached at edges for fastening each piece to another with timberlocks. from the outside, it would appear to be cement, but the inside would be plywood. That plywood could be painted gray or black or left natural. Each panel would be a bit heavy, being that it is a 4x6 piece of plywood + the cement coated foam, which is a little heavy, but nothing that 2 guys cant easily put together in about 20 minutes. A shallow pit could be dug and this "top" put over it to give more headroom inside. Add sand bag and log walls around it, block it off with some wire traps and we got a fortified position that could work good for us. I think I could put one together for under $100. I think I will try. Ill update as the project progresses and post a drawing of what I am talking about.
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Post by ssgjoe on May 12, 2014 20:22:58 GMT -5
Ill start a new thread on the use of barbed wire. I'll pick up where we left off
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Post by insterburger on May 12, 2014 21:10:59 GMT -5
Jer, do you think it could be done with bracing instead of the plywood? That would save considerably on weight.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on May 13, 2014 6:47:00 GMT -5
What Brownian said above should be the final word on real barb wire. Lets change the subject. I was thinking of a design today for using recycled 2 inch building foam which has a masonry finish on one side(recycled from the roof system of a school)to create pillboxes/bunkers. I can get the foam insulation boards from a local salvage guy for real cheap. (Im actually using it in my house that I am building). It would consist of 4 side panels, and 2 roof panels. Dimensions would be a 6'x6', 4' high box. 3 sides would have firing slits cut into it and it would have a door cut in for entry in the back. It would disassemble into 6 pieces for storage and transport. The foam could be glued to a 1/2" plylwood backing with 2/4 strips attached at edges for fastening each piece to another with timberlocks. from the outside, it would appear to be cement, but the inside would be plywood. That plywood could be painted gray or black or left natural. Each panel would be a bit heavy, being that it is a 4x6 piece of plywood + the cement coated foam, which is a little heavy, but nothing that 2 guys cant easily put together in about 20 minutes. A shallow pit could be dug and this "top" put over it to give more headroom inside. Add sand bag and log walls around it, block it off with some wire traps and we got a fortified position that could work good for us. I think I could put one together for under $100. I think I will try. Ill update as the project progresses and post a drawing of what I am talking about. I would ask you to please prime and paint the inside grey. Especially if the outside looks believably to be a pillbox. The reason I ask this is because back in 2007 we build a plywood pillbox. It looked ok. However, when we took pictures some pictures were taken from inside the thing and it really spoils good photos when plywood is the background.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on May 13, 2014 7:29:42 GMT -5
Jer, do you think it could be done with bracing instead of the plywood? That would save considerably on weight. im going to have to work it out and see. I am getting about 70 sheets to finish the foundation of my house, so I will have some to play around with. Adding the plywood, would add strength, but allot of weight too. If I can use just the foam, I will. but the foam may not be strong enough to hold fasteners for connecting panels. Thats why I was going to add plywood and some light framing. This may not work out and just be too heavy for us to deal with, but its worth a look see.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on May 13, 2014 12:41:32 GMT -5
You know; I think the foam board with a wood frame is a good way to go and I personally want to build a transportable bunker for future events for my own personal use. It has nothing to do with the two MG-42’s I own… honest!
Seriously however… I’d use 2X6 wood to frame the walls, the door and the three gun ports. Then fill the empty space with foam board. After which I’d paint everything to look like concrete (adding sand to the paint mix).
The reason I’d frame the gun slits in the 2X6 is because you want the people inside to be able to rest their guns on the frame of the slit. The MG-42’s are heavy and so are the browning machine guns. I feel that they weigh just enough to probably break the foam board; which is a problem!
Each wall could be built separately so that they attach to the next wall section in particular order. Then a simple foam board roof could be added on top to finish it all off. Add a few of my sawdust filled burlap sandbags to the corners of the foam board roof and that should be plenty to secure it. Each wall section would not, by itself weight so much that two men couldn’t move it to a destination on the field intended for the bunkers use. It would just take four trips. Heck to finish the entire thing off I’d build a rope net and stain it. Then cover the pillbox in the netting to help conceal it and the seams of the walls.
So I’ve decided! I’m building one ha! It will be easy enough to transport in the back of a pickup truck or small trailer along with the rest of the gear, tent and etc.
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