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Post by ssgjoe on May 12, 2014 20:40:26 GMT -5
Ok, so LSSAH1944 brought up a point wondering why someone would run to barbed wire for cover (not picking on you in specific. This is the first comment that I thought of when I started this thread). And when you're not on the field, it seems logical that one wouldn't run to barbed wire. But when you are on the field and you got guys shooting at you, whether its a lot of fire or not, a lot of people will run to the first thing they see as cover. Take my experience, I just came out of a building and started to receive fire from only one person, so I did the first thing that I thought would keep me from getting shot: I jumped off the ledge in front of me . I jacked up my leg and broke a piece off my gun after I crashed into the building at the bottom of the ledge. It hurt and I limped inside and lied down then got shot. (Ah, war stories...). But yeah. I could have run back into the building I came out of instead of jumping, but jumping was the first thing that came to mind. I'm not sure how much bigger this thread will get, but I always enjoy a polite civilized debate to be honest. Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 12, 2014 21:46:56 GMT -5
Barbed wire is designed to impede movement. It does so by snagging on and tearing clothing and flesh. Tetanus shots are always a good idea for any outdoor sport but if you employ real barbed wire at an airsoft event (where we PLAY Army) evidence of a current tetanus shot should be mandatory.
I really like that fake barbed wire is an available product and would much prefer to see it used.
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Post by tango on May 12, 2014 23:53:39 GMT -5
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 13, 2014 5:28:48 GMT -5
On the other hand, barbed wire was almost NEVER used on the western front. Only on the beachheads have I EVER seen any of it in use, and maybe around the Batteries, such as Crisbecq.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 13, 2014 5:35:42 GMT -5
John, yes, you are correct, we are just "playing army", but theres also a reason this is called reenacting, and I see no reason not to strive to have the most accurate and realistic terrain and scenarios. Again, the GWA has had barbed wire for over a decade, they do night fighting, and have NEVER had an accident.
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Post by insterburger on May 13, 2014 6:08:18 GMT -5
From a tactical point of view, and if employed correctly, fake barbed wire can accomplish almost everything that real barbed wire can, but without the risk of injury or damage to expensive gear. It's a game, folks. There are always going to be inherent risks involved with an active outdoor sport played out over large and often wild terrain, but there is no reason to make things more dangerous than they need to be, and a thousand reasons not to.
My sister was badly injured on barbed wire when we were kids and still has the scars to prove it. Anyone who has seen what it can do to human flesh would think twice about using it in a game, especially when the same or similar tactical benefits can be accomplished safely-- not to mention much, much cheaper. Depending on the method used, the visuals can range from strkingly similar to nearly identical. I'm just not seeing how real barbed wire wins in any rational cost/benefit analysis.
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Post by ssgjoe on May 13, 2014 9:56:54 GMT -5
Now if the field were 18+ and 16+ with parental consent, I wouldn't mind having real barbed wire. But when you got 12-14 year olds running around, that's when there's a higher chance of an injury. And parents of 12 year olds are more likely going to sue than parents of 16 year olds I would think.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on May 13, 2014 16:47:20 GMT -5
I know that you want it to be more realistic and we are reenacting stuff but how often do airsoft games follow actual historical outcomes? How many airsoft games have several hundred or several thousand for one battle? How many airsofters have actually gone through any sort of military training let alone ww2 style training?
There are many shortcomings with airsoft and realism but it is a cheaper alternative(usually) to blank firing or using simunition and is easier to play on a regular basis not just twice a year if even for some places.
Yeah we don't have ww2 games as often as we would like but we can play casually on weekend or whenever you might be able to ply at a local field. Can you imagine people trying to do "casual" blank fire events? Or using simunition once a month? The expenses would be so high and if you're spending that much money it's hard to just have a casual experience, or at least i would imagine as much.
I don't know but I see no real reason to fiddle around with real barbed wire especially if it is at a field used at least once a month. GWA has what like 2 or 3 events a year? If I was plying at a place only a couple times a year, I wouldn't mind the extra risk to add to it. Don't they even have biplanes at some events? or have had? If I was playing airsoft at place a few times year if even, fine but if it's place I would use fairly often I am not sure if it would be worth it because I can imagine it could get old quick.
There is a field that has wire down here in florida and the time that I played there it was cool for like 20 seconds and then i realized how much it would hinder movement and gameplay. Don't get me wrong, I liked the place but as attackers on the one fire base, if you don't have vehicle support, you're going to have a rough game
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 13, 2014 17:12:17 GMT -5
Why even have barbed wire? Was rarely ever used on the westfront. Same with fake 'concrete" pillboxes. Just get land (which I have some of out here), dig trenches, cut down trees and make the trenches and "log bunkers" that were commonly seen on the western front. No need for foam or plywood bunkers.
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Post by ssgjoe on May 13, 2014 17:23:47 GMT -5
You could just use land too. Nothing special added. I mean, having some buildings and trenches would be great, but you can host a good game without any structures.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on May 13, 2014 18:13:05 GMT -5
The whole point of this thread is discussing real vs fake barbed wire. Sure barbed wire wasn't as common in ww2 but if somebody wants to make it why not make it?Wouldn't be the biggest deal to have extra props and not everybody does westfront bro
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Post by ssgjoe on May 13, 2014 18:19:01 GMT -5
Well, in the other thread we were mainly talking about France, so that's where the mindset of this thread kinda is. But we never said East Front and Mediterranean Front was out if the picture.
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Post by insterburger on May 13, 2014 21:08:59 GMT -5
If you're doing Westfront games, sooner or later you're doing Normandy. And there was a bit of it there, to say the least. But as Stuka aptly stated, this thread isn't about the suitability of barbed wire to this scenario or that, but is meant to be a discussion on the merits of real vs. fake barbed wire... although if it spins off-topic I'd love to see some discussion of whaich barbed wire substitutes are best, whether in general or for specific applications.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 13, 2014 21:10:44 GMT -5
yes, there was a lot of it in Normandy- on the beaches. But since everyone does 101st, and we have no beaches, there aren't beach landing events. Also, stuka, I'm pretty sure 99% of the people here do west front, besides the ost front airsoft guys.
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Post by insterburger on May 13, 2014 21:31:21 GMT -5
There actually were several beach landing events before my time, or so I understand.
But again, the discussion of whether barbed wire should be used at all is a bit off-topic. I would personally like to hear more about types of fake barbed wire that has been used by people who have used it, and how effective (or not) it has been.
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Post by ssgjoe on May 13, 2014 23:01:14 GMT -5
There is some fake barbed wire you can get at Halloween stores. Some brands are better than others, but the stuff I have was really good, until it got drenched in orange juice.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 25, 2014 10:35:14 GMT -5
Barbed wire was employed by all belligerants in the war in virtually all the battlefields where it was available and time to install it. Not as prevalent as in WW1 of course but plenty of it encountered. The Hurtegan, the Siegfried line, in any logical choke point artillery firing position, vehicle staging area, CP etc. Wire cutters were issued to every infantry squad but I suppose that was just so they'd have extra stuff to carry.
With fake wire you can aggressively attempt to breach it as you might in the life or death situations we are trying to simulate while still doing it relatively safely.
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Post by luftwelle93 on May 25, 2014 19:53:52 GMT -5
It would be cool to have fake wire strewn around gun emplacements and bunkers.It would hamper advancing towards those emplacements and figuring out how to go around it.Or players could get cutters and cut their way through while the rest give them cover
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 31, 2014 9:04:43 GMT -5
Indeed. And with fake wire you can do so aggressively (as you might need to in real combat) with substantially reduced likelihood of injury which is the whole point. Foxholes, wire, sandbags, bunkers, mines, mortars, grenades, field phones, radios, flares, etc were all elements of the war. All were not present at all engagements and we can (and do) hold skirmishes without them but having them present and depicted in a way that is safe and practical can't be a bad thing. I think it all adds ambiance and that contributes to emmersion. Pallet structures,mesh fencing and defensive positions that don't make logical sense but are randomly spaced around a paintball field are more distracting to me then improper boots or a slightly off shade pair of trousers. Watching an assault on a bunker line or roadblock that requires breaching wire has a lot of appeal for me (in an airsoft event)
Doing so requires planning, tactical skill execution and great team work.
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Post by insterburger on May 31, 2014 10:27:38 GMT -5
2nd Bat, the direction you're describing is exactly the direction we are heading, at least in the NE. We have at least two, and likely THREE fields in the North East that look as though they might be developed as dedicated WWII fields. No pallets, no abandoned RV's. Any structures, defensive positions, or derelict vehicles will be executed with an eye toward realistic WWII combat and period-correct design. Developing the fields will not be a quick process, and there will be pitfalls, but even if just one or two of them reach their full potential, we will be miles ahead of where we are today and have the ability to create truly immersive events.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 31, 2014 13:20:23 GMT -5
Such visually stimulating fields will (in my opinion) assist greatly in recruitment efforts. They will set the events apart from normal airsoft events and will likely be attractive to discerning eyes that will appreciate the attention to detail. They of course won't be the end all be all for growing the hobby but they will help. I am anxious when I get home from my current trip to produce some barbed wire effects to go along with my stuffed "portable" sandbags
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shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on May 31, 2014 13:23:32 GMT -5
It will definitely help recruiting and give current players a more immersive experience. We are trying to get more realistic fields here in michigan too, though we are a bit behind you guys.
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Post by huxy on May 31, 2014 13:58:26 GMT -5
Fields with props makes a lot of difference. We have a field with dug in trenches, log "bunkers", a simple log house, small fortifications and more. It makes aaaaall the difference! But we got no barbed wire... yet....
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Post by luftwelle93 on May 31, 2014 14:18:51 GMT -5
Shell craters would be cool too.Just put some ash and blacken the crater for that "blasted" look.A pit like this would be cool too
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 31, 2014 14:45:27 GMT -5
HUXY. awesome checkpoint, road block. That the kind of theatrical prop we'd all love to see. Imagine with some sandbagged bunkers some xxxxxxx barbed wire or cement looking bunkers and you'd have a very identifiable, very credible objective. Such checkpoints would frequently be fortified with emplaced wire.
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Post by huxy on May 31, 2014 15:33:21 GMT -5
HUXY. awesome checkpoint, road block. That the kind of theatrical prop we'd all love to see. Imagine with some sandbagged bunkers some xxxxxxx barbed wire or cement looking bunkers and you'd have a very identifiable, very credible objective. Such checkpoints would frequently be fortified with emplaced wire. Thanks. I agree with that it needs fortification. Guess what? We got it! The picture was taken from it. Here, let me show you. Here's a picture of me facing the roadblock. You can see the little pillbox on the small hilltop: It's dug a meter and a half down with sandbags around, then a tarp and that plywood shield. The roadblock with the fortification has turned out to be VERY difficult for the opposing team to defeat - altough possible. Especially when they ford the little stream on the flank with a Weasel! P.S.: Do note, in the first picture, the wind up grammaphone inside the little hut
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Post by luftwelle93 on May 31, 2014 16:22:17 GMT -5
The location looks awesome Huxy,so authentic.It just makes me anxious to jump into this hobby.
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Post by huxy on May 31, 2014 16:39:40 GMT -5
You should fly over here and play with us
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Post by luftwelle93 on May 31, 2014 16:42:08 GMT -5
That would be sweet,expensive but sweet.Though I don't think my Mp-40 would get far :DWhat country is your events at?
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Post by huxy on May 31, 2014 16:48:11 GMT -5
This awesome field is in Norway, just 40 minutes away from the main international airport OSL (picking you up would never be a problem). Prices for planetickets to and from USA-Norway isn't that expensive. Both the scandinavian airlines SAS and Norwegian have flights several times a week too and from Newark airport, and are/have expanded to other cities like San Fransisco. And you could easily borrow an MP40 here - we got plenty! But further details are best done over PM or in another thread so we don't go off topic.
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