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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 27, 2014 20:20:37 GMT -5
Yes, I agree its about fun. However, the fun should be accurate representation- not just doing whatever.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 27, 2014 20:22:01 GMT -5
Moreso, one of the best recruitment ways would be blankfirers. However, if its a bunch of random dudes with half modern impressions, no ones gunna take us seriously, and flop, back to where we are now!
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Post by insterburger on May 28, 2014 5:54:35 GMT -5
Issah, you've been to the events around here and have seen where things are going. You above most people should understand the balance that is needed-- and in my eyes is being accomplished-- to grow the hobby. Please tell me who among us is advocating for "doing whatever" or "half modern impressions." Certainly not me or anyone else who has been posting on this thread. What I am saying is we need to avoid a holier-than-thou attitude that intimidates new players who lack excruciatingly perfect kit. We need to encourage people to come with what they have-- or nothing-- and be ready to fill in the blanks ourselves with decent loaner gear until they can get up to speed. If not, we will drive away potential recruits among airsofters and as you say, "flop, back to where we are now."
We are not modern airsoft, but neither are we blankfire re-enactment. If airsofters aren't excited enough about this to build their own kit-- even slowly-- they'll just stay with modern airsoft. And if a re-enactor is a stitch-Nazi with a stick up his rear about uniform requirements, you won't get him to field a BB gun anyway. If we're doing this right, our minimum standards will be much higher than casual airsofters are used to, and somewhat less exacting than hardcore re-enactors are used to. That's called "balance," and it's the only way we're going to grow this hobby.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 28, 2014 7:51:25 GMT -5
I agree completely with the sentiments expressed by insteberger. I have seen too many instances of potential players staying home because their impression wasn't quite ready (are any of us satisfied with what all we have) or not comfortable meeting strangers who at least on line sound like pompous asses frankly. The irony is that often these arrogant sounding authorities are some of the kindest and most generous supporters of others at events. Balance is the key. None of us want to attend an event where blatant anachronisms are evident although I am okay with it occassionally if thereis potential to model and recruit others for higher standard events.
The current state of the hobby is there are not enough WW2 themed events but a catalyst of players with excellent overall impressions and generally enough spare loaner gear to fill in gaps for about another 3 times their number That doesn't mean our members all have 3 impressions but some have many more than that. The best formula for growth regionally that I have seen is to start out with modest standards with a cadre of excellence to strive for. Have fun and watch the hobby grow. The lack of appropriate weapons was our greatest hinderance and that still remains a challenge in some cases but finally is manageable.
At least a third of the folks at REMAGEN were in loaner gear costumes and while they certainly didn't look perfect and a few in particular made me cringe a bit. Overall they looked fabulous at I think most everyone had a great time.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on May 28, 2014 9:16:14 GMT -5
My sentiments exactly 2nBat! Well said above! We need to get away from the notion of trying to appease die hard stitch Nazis who will never come to an "airsoft" event, just because of what their own notions and expectations are of a WW2 event. Those people will never come regardless of how accurate historically we become. Or may be someday they may try out ww2AS and get their heads out of their asses, I don't care, and probably most f us really dont either. we are not blank fire and will never be because of the very definition of what airsoft guns are. It's a tactical game, not a show. People should get over it. We need not ever confuse the two. Balance is what we need as event organizers at our events and skirmishes. New players should be welcomed no matter what they got on for kit. Then we lead by example as veterans of the hobby and lead others interested in becoming more authentic and by helping to guide them towards that ultimate goal. The more veteran you are, the better you are going to look on the field. And further more, I think that anything to get more players out on the field weather it's a "economy" airborne kit or anything is a positive thing. So hör auf zu jammern Soldaten! Gerade schießen Sie die Amerikaner! P.S. I would definantly welcome open arms any Blank firer who wanted to honer us by coming to one of our games and giving Air soft a try. Our games could only improve with authenticity by having them at our events. So I don't mean to not include or insult them, not really anyway, if they want to give airsoft a go.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 28, 2014 10:22:35 GMT -5
There are many fans of both blankfire and airsoft who see virtues in both so the two hobbies are not entirely non inclusive. There was a time when the BF crowd was still working through the stages we're at with regard to standards and expectations. Some units are still battling their way through these very same discussions. Those the instruments we choose are different the goal for both hobbies are the same. To suspend belief and experience temporary time travel and emmerse ourselves however briefly into the drama of armed conflict in a safe but credible way.
As we got more and more living history folks involved in airsoft many of the things they incorporated in their events like encampments, continuous emmersion, unit integrity and tiny details and props really enhanced our experiences. Likewise the BF folks enjoyed those qualities of airsoft not applicable to cap popping. Its a nice marriage that does require us to somewhat stepupour game but in no way should we obsess with attempting to woo most of their community who fear the reduction of their membership instead of the opportunity for growth.
Actually accepting the reality of ones vulnerability to enemy fire and confronting the mortality that is evidenced consistently at airsoft firefights is just not something many blankfire participants are comfortable accepting. Iam by no means suggesting this is the exclusive or even main reason blank fire players resist participating in our hobby but I know its a reason some of them have no interest. I doubt any of them would admit to this however.
There is more that is universal about our two hobbies than seperates us but it is tough enough to dedicate ones self to one hobby let alone spread your time, loyalties and energy toward two.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on May 28, 2014 11:05:03 GMT -5
In a perfect world, I would love to see the two hobbies, that do indeed share more in common than not alike, to merge. because one does beget the other. The reenactment part adds to the atmosphere, and the airsoft guns add to the tactical game play. The repro gun industry would only get better with more weapon choices if there was suddenly a large call for it. So I'm all for to keep inviting and recruiting reenactors. But they got to realize we are a work in progress, just as they once were, and still are now.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 28, 2014 14:09:23 GMT -5
However, to follow the logic "no one will join if we have too high standards" then please explain why many of the largest blankfire units are the ones that have the harshest authenticity guidelines, such as GD 7/kp. ?
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on May 28, 2014 14:37:13 GMT -5
As far as I know, which isn't a huge amount about WW2 blank fire events, there doesn't seem to be a lot of them happening around the East. so when they have their big events like GAP and what ever others they put on, everyone tries to make it. I was going to join the 88th mechanized infantry division out of the Hudson valley Several years back, but when I learned how few WW2 reenactments that there were in the NE I decided not to do it, and stayed with Rev War and French and Indian war reenactments.(there is lots of that going on in my area) I don't know if that situation has changed in recent years, but that would be my explanation why that event which has high authenticity standards has a good attendance. We can go on and on about this if we want, but I don't see the point in doing so, because most of us fundamentally agree with your point Grahm, that we should up the authenticity standards. Let's leave it at that and try to get your blank fire friends to take part and try it, some will, some won't no matter how accurate historically we make it.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 28, 2014 15:11:56 GMT -5
There are plenty of units out here. At least 15 well-established german units. And plenty of other less-established ones.
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Post by insterburger on May 28, 2014 15:36:07 GMT -5
However, to follow the logic "no one will join if we have too high standards" then please explain why many of the largest blankfire units are the ones that have the harshest authenticity guidelines, such as GD 7/kp. ? Graham, there is a "false equivalency" fallacy here that I think you're not seeing. As similar as BF and AS are, they are not the same, and just as importantly (as 2nd Bat stated above) and maybe MORE importantly, the two hobbies are at VASTLY different stages in their development. Are you aware of just how lax things were in the early days of WWII re-enactment? There were all sorts of things that would make a modern re-enactor cringe... crude DDR tunic conversions, post-war Y-straps, Spanish helmets, etc. They were in an early, growth stage and did what they needed to to build the hobby. If they had held their players to the same standards then as they do today, there might not have been much of a hobby at all. Also, we need to be mindful that despite their many similarities, BF and AS are entirely different lollipops s. BF has little or no competitive element to it, so there are few differentiators between a "good" and "bad" unit beyond how exactlingly they can re-create the historical details. Airsoft is at least as much competitive sport as it is a recreation of history, and so there is much more on the table beyond the minutae of historical detail. Not to disparage BF guys, but in blank fire all you need to be a good rifleman is the ability to work a bolt and pull a trigger. In airsoft your ability to sight in on an enemy and put projectiles on him actually mean something. So having a group of guys who know each other and can fight as a unit with real combat skills becomes the most important thing. So historic authenticity is still hugely important, but not necessarily the most important factor. Bottom line, we are a different niche market than BF, albeit with some overlap. Again, the ultra-purist re-enactors will always look down at us (ignorantly) as popping away at each other with children's toys. The casual airsofter will always shake his head and wonder why we're wasting money on kit and fielding guns that often put appearance above performance. Who we are trying to attract are the re-enactor who is willing to try something different, and the weekend airsofter who is looking for something more subtle and sophisticated than a run and gun. In both cases, they will be the guys who are willing to step a little bit out of their safety zone. When they do, they will quickly see that what we offer isn't the same as either hobby, or even a hybrid of the two. It is its own truly wonderful thing.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 28, 2014 15:41:09 GMT -5
I agree on most points. However, IMHO, ww2aa should not be "competitive" in terms of combat. yes, winning the battle matters, but the true "winner" is that who has the most accurate impressions and portrayal, etc.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on May 28, 2014 17:32:21 GMT -5
Moreso, one of the best recruitment ways would be blankfirers. However, if its a bunch of random dudes with half modern impressions, no ones gunna take us seriously, and flop, back to where we are now! Why don't you try to contact those 15 or so blank fire units in our area or at least the one you are in and invite them to our next event, which is a cross over event with blank firerers anyhow. Or not, if you feel like where we are now is too Flaggrantly Wrong. Put your money were your mouth is and recruite those guys if they will come. You are the one who is pushing for more recruitment and more historically accurate portrayals. They can only help by being present and playing airsoft with us.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 28, 2014 17:52:57 GMT -5
I am trying to get a few of my blankfire friends who used to do airsoft out to events.
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Post by insterburger on May 28, 2014 17:53:20 GMT -5
I agree on most points. However, IMHO, ww2aa should not be "competitive" in terms of combat. yes, winning the battle matters, but the true "winner" is that who has the most accurate impressions and portrayal, etc. I think this was discussed at length in another thread, but yes, WW2AA absolutely SHOULD be competitive in terms of combat. It just needs to be competitive within a strict set of rules, such as period weapons, a realistic balance of single shot and full auto, period camo, period tactics, etc. All-out, "win at all costs" combat that introduces modern elements for the sake of getting a competitive edge on your enemy is, in my eyes, no better than the non-combat that blank fire seems to become, and no different than breaking the rules in any other competitive sport. But that competitive element, the fact that your shots count and will determine who comes out on top, is what differentiates us and makes our game closer to real combat, despite the lack of pops and bangs. I'll never forget the time I was in an advanced position and the Amis were moving up on us during the Bulge game. I was behind cover and Nate came up next to me, about 40 ft. away, taking cover from the main force and completely oblivious to me. I had him fully exposed, raised my rifle-- a 98k-- and realized I would get one shot at him, and that if I missed, I was dead. That one shot sailed about 2 inches past his head-- seriously, not more than that-- he turned, saw me, and peppered me with his Garand. I don't know if he hit with his first shot or not, but he sure did with his second, third, fourth... By blank fire rules, he would have been dead. But for me, that "do or die" is what makes airsoft exciting, and competitive, and it's that competitiveness that makes it feel like combat. "Wer zuerst schießt, hat mehr vom Leben!"
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on May 28, 2014 18:14:44 GMT -5
And the fact that we are even allowing blank fire guys to come take part in the tactical using their RS weapons and letting their shots count as hits cause they yell at us first is a real give away and concession to them. I really don't like the idea myself, but I am willing to give it a try. Maybe something good will come out of it. They had just better get me first or I am going to peg them, and I may anyhow, as long as we airsofters are allowed to get them with our dieing shots! That would make things way more fair. Id really like to do that to someone, that will teach them to use cover.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 28, 2014 18:15:57 GMT -5
I agree. However, the BBs are used to make the actual combat more realistic. However, if the Germans pepper the allies, they shouldn't brag they won the game, if their impressions were off. yes, combat is an important factor, but the true winner is whoever has more accurate impressions and knowledge. I'd rather have a totally crummy team that gets destroyed but has amazing tactics and gear than have an awesome team that looks like something out of a 60s movie.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on May 28, 2014 18:19:07 GMT -5
This may sound dumb but isn't war by nature competitive?it's a matter of who wins through battle not who has the prettiest camouflage lol
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on May 28, 2014 18:21:53 GMT -5
That would also make it way more "real" right? cause everyone knows that a dying man is still often dangerous.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 28, 2014 18:23:05 GMT -5
yes Stuke. But, if you take out the historical part, this is just regular airsoft. How would you react if someone came to an event with full NVA camo and an NVA helmet?
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Post by patrickl29th on May 28, 2014 18:29:40 GMT -5
Because some people like the look of the airborne more, and if people come along to tell them to buy more stuff, they may well quit the hobby, Than why did you say "It'll get new people into our hobby though, who can later get infantry impressions ?" If people are going infantry, get an infantry impression they don't have to get a airborne impression because its 10$ cheaper...
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shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on May 28, 2014 18:35:31 GMT -5
What I'm saying is that it is their choice, and we shouldn't force them to do anything at first. To me, having a newbie show up in airborne gear and have a great time is better than having someone show up in an infantry uniform and complaining about the nagging they went through.
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Post by patrickl29th on May 28, 2014 18:41:50 GMT -5
Its a different feel in airsoft when you have a full impression. For an example, Full web gear, A REAL HELMET not a plastic one... authentic boots, etc. I believe its more enjoyable having a full impression than walking around with no webgear and just a uniform. We should try to get new people and get those new people to get good impressions. And stuka in real war they carry 80 pound gear and they do wear some pretty camo, if everyone does that it will be more competitive.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on May 28, 2014 19:11:36 GMT -5
yes Stuke. But, if you take out the historical part, this is just regular airsoft. How would you react if someone came to an event with full NVA camo and an NVA helmet? I would say nice kit but I wouldn't be like "You won because you spent the money" Airsoft is a game and should have fun but that doesn't mean you can't be competitive A proper impression is useless if it isn't used
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Post by insterburger on May 28, 2014 19:17:36 GMT -5
but I wouldn't be like "You won because you spent the money" So I take it you're not a New York Yankees fan?
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 28, 2014 19:37:07 GMT -5
yes Stuke. But, if you take out the historical part, this is just regular airsoft. How would you react if someone came to an event with full NVA camo and an NVA helmet? I would say nice kit but I wouldn't be like "You won because you spent the money" Airsoft is a game and should have fun but that doesn't mean you can't be competitive A proper impression is useless if it isn't used A good kit doesn't mean spending a lot of money. it means caring about your impression and appearance. I'm not saying you need full LB wools, SMW camo, etc., you can go full hikishop, spend $200, and have an awesome kit.
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Post by brownien on May 28, 2014 19:56:07 GMT -5
I really don't think everyone needs to have a 100% complete Impression right off the bat. When I started collecting 8 years ago, all I had was a M42 jump uniform. Soon I got a helmet, then boots, then some more and more webgear. Now 8 years later, I have amassed enough gear to complete close to 4-5 complete kits. Doing it over that length of time was much easier than going all out and getting it at once. It gave me the time to use what I had and learn the tactics, how to fight and be effective. If you have a flawless impression but can't use tactics properly, you may as well just reenact blankfire at public shows. If you know how to use plenty of tactics, and you can figure out how to assault or defend a position effectively 80% of the time, but have a crap impression, you may as well just do modern. Its a combination of both. you need to work on perfecting an impression WHILE learning to perfect your fighting technique!
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stuka
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Post by stuka on May 28, 2014 20:58:40 GMT -5
I was talking about in reference to your earlier comment about " but the true winner is whoever has more accurate impressions" Lssah
Yeah people can have good uni's with 200$'s or w/e you were saying but then you say the true winner is whoever has the more accurate impressions (Then you said knowledge but that's not specifically relevant). If it was a public disply, sure that's obviously optimal but it's relly annoying when you can only play with 5 people. We need more people to get started.
I am not saying to keep poorer impressions but I am saying we need more people and we need to start actually playing games. It's really annoying to have a nice kit and no proper games to fit in. Sure, i'll go to a local place in my kit because why not but part of having the kit is to be able to properly use it at some point haha.
There was a story in the bible(Whether you believe it or not this is being used as an analogy) which I am going to paraphrase terribly but here it goes.
Israel was at war with another country(nothing new there) and there was a leader called by God to raise an army to stop the enemies. Well the initial volunteers were, lets say, 4000 against a force of 10000(Paraphrasing terribly mind you). Well God had said leader(let's call him bob) perform a test to see who could be used. Well now the numbers were decreased substantially to say 1750 after removing those who failed the test. Then once again there was another test(There may have been more I don't remember) and the final number of troops left after this was about 280 i think against 10000. Welp, sure enough God had Bob use these troops to confuse the enemies into thinking they were getting attacked which resulted in the enemies fighting each other and Israel coming out on top.
The point of that poorly paraphrased story was this, gather as many volunteer's as you can, from there test them, give them time but test them. From there you can weed out those that might not be able to accomplish the purpose of the group and when all is said and done you will hopefully have proper numbers being able to do what is needed while being able to recruit more people and being able to continually weeding out those that don't fit the needs of the group and hopefully balance can be achieved and BF people and airsofters will have equal numbers and perhaps lots of individual's in both with both sides growing.
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Post by insterburger on May 29, 2014 6:10:55 GMT -5
Stuka, great application of the story of Gideon (or bob, if you prefer ). One place he had it better is that he had more than enough volunteers-- we don't! But where we have it better-- MUCH better-- is that we don't need to weed out those who are unsuitable or not committed: They'll do it themselves. I think this hobby either speaks to you deeply or not much at all, and given the commitment it takes to assemble the weaponry and kit (either a chunk of money up front, or a long, long patient building up) people who aren't prepared to make that kind of commitment won't stay on. So, like Gideon, we need to recruit far and wide, and get everyone who is even halfway interested a chance to give it a try. And at the end of the day, with people flitting in and out of the hobby, we will have the committed core that will be needed to sustain this hobby and grow it.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on May 29, 2014 7:27:48 GMT -5
My thing is, there will always be people that will say they will make kits and never do and up building like 5 modern kits and still no ww2 kits and it get's really annoying but they still have "Interest". At the very least, those individual's should be talked to imo
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