ScottCollins
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Post by ScottCollins on Aug 17, 2014 22:27:11 GMT -5
Hey everybody. I've been a bit dark lately and I thought that I might want to share my idea with some of you folks. As you can see by the title this is something that I think I might want to strike up. It would be a very different turn for airsoft but I was watching videos of paintball linebattles and they just were disappointing. Now I have looked into ways of doing this and I have found that and entire kit (uniform + rifle) may end up costing LESS than some of our guns! The main problem of course is interest. WWII airsoft is still growing so Rev war airsoft would be such a change up, but upon really examining the problems, it all boils down to money. I've sunk over $800 if not more into WWII airsoft and if I could pitch this as an affordable hobby, would anyone be interested? Switching gears from interest I'd like to draw your attention to the guns. Searching through lessons in this forums I've found a way that muskets could be made for a reasonable price. If you take a cheap shotgun: tinyurl.com/qxl82oy and combine it with a Denix replica: tinyurl.com/kc9oohw you can make a reasonably price gun for about $150 (If you build it yourself). Then use the ramrod and when you shove the bb down the barrel to cock the mechanism. It's the same technique use by Shoot n' Scoot with their Flintsoft games: tinyurl.com/p7z9mpw I have also heard that when they really want to add effect, they shove some flour down the barrel after the bb and it gives a smoke effect. So yeah, if you're interested give me a shout
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Post by luftwelle93 on Aug 18, 2014 0:54:38 GMT -5
A Revolutionary War airsoft war would be GREAT!!It would be a project worth doing.I would gladly fork up some dough to do a militia impression and make a musket.The only obstacle I can think of is how many would do it.I would first do the whole impression and musket and go to events to bring awareness.I heard this method is what also helped grow the WW2 airsoft community,just word of mouth and awareness.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Aug 18, 2014 11:49:32 GMT -5
The simulated smoke would be an essential element as would the ram rod aspect. Line style combat for the purposes of emmersion requires large number of participants and much drill and practice. During a recent visit to Williamsburg VA they did a demonstration of formations, line drill and even had the audience participate. it was quite fun. Truthfully until significant numbs of partifipants could be recruited French and Indian War might make more sense for skirmishing. interestingly in this period of warfare most casualties in direct combat were still due to bayonet, sword play, hatchets and hand to hand due to the limited range, inaccuracies and slow rate of fire. obviously alot of rubber weapons would be needed.
Rogers Rangers from the period was the starting point for contemporary rangers and his 10 tips for combat remain posted in Ranger barracks and Day Rooms.
RULE # 1. Don't Fergit Nothing.
it really might be kind of fun
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ScottCollins
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Post by ScottCollins on Aug 18, 2014 16:03:43 GMT -5
That is an interesting idea since it would help with skirmishes and you wouldn't have to get a full uniform from the start. All you'd need is a gun or a melee weapon and you could dress up like a Native. That would also help with recruitment since, again, people wouldn't have to lay down $350 or so to start. Once I finish my WWII orders I think I'd like to give this a go!
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Post by volkssturm on Aug 18, 2014 21:57:43 GMT -5
Oddly enough, the way I stumbled into Airsoft was I had an idea (being a history nut) that a paintball firing musket could make an interesting historical reenactment game for anywhere from the French and Indian Wars to the Napoleonic Wars. So I was searching the Internet to see if anyone was doing it. Instead I came across Airsoft.
It's an interesting idea. I don't see any reason you couldn't do it. AS far as not having the numbers for linear tactics you could always start with scenarios built around light infantry skirmishing. And then there's Roger's Rangers and the Indian wars. There's a large community of re-enactors and all the resourcesthey have for creating costumes. Wish I was younger.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Aug 18, 2014 23:15:13 GMT -5
I mean I would want this to just derp about at local airsoft games for lols. run around with a bolt action is alreay a big disadvantage, doing this would just be even more ridiculous XD
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Post by volkssturm on Aug 19, 2014 18:06:35 GMT -5
"Always with the negative waves, Moriarty. Always with the negative waves."
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Aug 19, 2014 18:53:28 GMT -5
and of course you would need rubber bayonets for charging, that s given =P
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ScottCollins
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Post by ScottCollins on Aug 19, 2014 19:28:36 GMT -5
Of course! The gun that I would be converting to airsoft actually comes with a bayonet so I could make a mold out of it and there you go! Rubber bayonets, tomahawks and swords would obviously be need since the reloading time is extended. All the challenges would, in my opinion, be relatively easy to overcome and I guess it would be a mix of airsoft and LARP which might attract an entirely different group of people. I think it'd be really cool to be able to fight someone with a bayonet if you are out of ammo and actually try to hit them with it unlike blankfire
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Aug 19, 2014 23:51:22 GMT -5
The French and Indian Wars and aspects of the Revolutionary war definitely consisted of patrolling. Small unit tactics and raids etc. It could be made to work. I saw a nice airsoft replics brown bess and Kentucky long rifle both home made but beautifully done. Though air powered the hammer was cocked and struck a cap for a smokey and louder report while the BB was propelled via a spring cocked air piston.
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Post by ssgjoe on Aug 20, 2014 10:33:31 GMT -5
If you could just make your musket so it has great range, accuracy, and FPS, you could just sit back and snipe people the entire game at public games.
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shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on Aug 20, 2014 15:32:40 GMT -5
Most muskets did NOT have great range and accuracy though. Many were only accurate out to 35 yards, which is well within airsoft ranges.
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ScottCollins
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Post by ScottCollins on Aug 20, 2014 16:25:19 GMT -5
Rangers vs. Indians might be a good idea to start. That way we can still have longrifles and I wouldn't have to decrease the accuracy to make it realistic. What I was thinking was that I could just cut the inner barrel short and that way the bbs would jiggle around in the barrel.
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Post by insterburger on Aug 20, 2014 17:34:21 GMT -5
Why don't you decrease accuracy (and reliability) by making everyone shoot popcorn kernels? As fun as this is to talk about, I would be happy if we could just consistently field two teams, GI and Feldgrau. Maybe a basic opfor impression would be the more responsible investment? Like I said though, fun to talk about!
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Aug 20, 2014 19:41:51 GMT -5
Shoot and scoot seem to be offering a Brown Bess musket that is " flintsoft" Maybe a real musket with a soboted paint ball and less grains of black powder would give the effect you are looking for. You'd get the smoke and the bang, just dont get hasty in the heat of a volley or you will forget to pull your ram rod out and shoot it into some poor savage or Frenchman. That happened back in those days. But seriously, I may try this with some 12 gauge plastic wadding from a shot gun shell and a paint ball and see what happens if I fire it out of my Brown Bess. Probably a messy Bess, lol!
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shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on Aug 20, 2014 20:44:54 GMT -5
That may work, though you'd have to be VERY careful with powder loads.
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Post by volkssturm on Aug 21, 2014 0:07:31 GMT -5
Let us know how that works for you. I suspect that any powder load strong enough to send the paintball out the barrel would probably burst it as well. And I have some doubts as to the safety of using real gunpowder. Then you've got the problem of getting the paintball down the barrel without bursting it. If it's small enough to go down on its own you're going to lose a lot of power. If it's too tight (as in the barrel gets fouled. My 1863 Zouave gets fouled so badly after three shots you can't get a patched ball down it.) the force needed to ram it down might be too much for the paintball.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Aug 21, 2014 9:30:13 GMT -5
Let us know how that works for you. I suspect that any powder load strong enough to send the paintball out the barrel would probably burst it as well. And I have some doubts as to the safety of using real gunpowder. Then you've got the problem of getting the paintball down the barrel without bursting it. If it's small enough to go down on its own you're going to lose a lot of power. If it's too tight (as in the barrel gets fouled. My 1863 Zouave gets fouled so badly after three shots you can't get a patched ball down it.) the force needed to ram it down might be too much for the paintball. I'm pretty sure the reason you don't see this being done much is because of all the things you just mentioned. Safety being foremost.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Aug 21, 2014 10:32:58 GMT -5
I think for safety reasons, the muskets would have to be gas powered and with flour for the smoke effect (like how some airsoft mines have it).
I've trained with blanks before, and even though there was no bullet, the escaping explosion coming from the barrel is extremely dangerous within 20 feet or yards (I forgot which, lets just say yards for safety concerns), and possibly fatal. Even if everyone is trained with putting the proper amount of powder in the muskets, there can always be a freak accident. Also, lets not forget, that most battles fought back then, after the first few rifle line valleys, ended up being like a medieval battle. Where every one is in melee range of each and there is no more line that separates the forces to think of.
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Post by ssgjoe on Aug 21, 2014 13:19:34 GMT -5
Yes, muskets were inaccurate, but for public modern events you'd be at a SEVERE disadvantage with a musket that only shoots 40 yards.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Aug 21, 2014 21:13:47 GMT -5
well if you're at a public event with a musket in general, you're pry not trying to get super competitive otherwise you're going to have a bad time.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Aug 21, 2014 23:24:33 GMT -5
In the event of an injury (no matter how minor) if what you are shooting is hurled by explosive powder you could be charged with a felony by definition in every state of the Union. Not worth exploring. its the main reason wad cutter sim munition battle never caught on outside of formal military or law enforcement training. great concept but frought with challenges. What you could do is insure the cocking handle discharges against powder with the trigger pull to create a nice report and some smoke.
If we're shooting airsoft being a shirtless mohawk would suck however at least you'd feel your hits!
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Post by brownien on Aug 22, 2014 11:36:26 GMT -5
Hey Squanto! Call your hits!
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Post by volkssturm on Aug 22, 2014 12:26:54 GMT -5
"It is a good day to respawn."
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Aug 23, 2014 22:46:39 GMT -5
I think anything more then like flower or white powder would be a bit much and wouldn't powder in the barrel mess with the bb's quite a lot? I know back in the "good 'ol days" that was an actual issue but it's already a musket, do we really need to replicate the too haha
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Aug 24, 2014 13:54:06 GMT -5
Powder propelled = a firearm even though it is certainly doable the legal issues make it completely unworthy of serious discussion. Sim munitions as used by law enforcement and the military for training receive a pass but we as hobbiest would not.
"Yes your honor I was definitely trying to hit him but I really didn't think it would hurt him" would pretty much insure a minimum sentence for felonious assault with a firearm. Yikes! To have anything even close to replicating land battles from the colonial period would require much drill and training an invetsment in custom produced weaponry and whole new impressions. Think the day will probably come when such a hobby is viable but I am way too old to expect to see it my lifetime.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Sept 1, 2014 10:55:18 GMT -5
I think I got some ideas for the muskets here.
Even though something like this might take a bit of engineering, but since one is trying to shoot both flour and a BB out of the musket, it would need to take much more air pressure to launch both.
So, wouldn't the use of a gas rifle be better? A gas rifle with near 500 FPS should be powerful enough to propel the flour and BB and since its gas, flour shouldn't be able to pour into the inner actions and cause screw ups. I'd imagine something with a standard spring action, the flour would find its way into the action. Also, if you were to try and counter that problem by loading the BB first and then the flour, unless its a tightbore, the flour might find its way and your shot will be EXTREMELY inaccurate. That is if the BB flies anymore than 5 feet with out flopping down.
Side note, I'd definitely recommend against using a tightbore for something like this. The flour might ruin it all together, from what I've read, they are rather finnicky and you have to take really good care of them.
Just an idea as well, there are a few lines of new gas airsoft shotguns out. These are fancy and have a "gas magazine" that goes into the stock and the shells are single shot shells (opposed to the 30 round, shotgun shell shaped mags). And you can fill the shells with BBs. I think each shell holds about 10 rounds each, maybe more. Point is, this might be a good base for a conversion. Shotguns have a nice wide barrel, the gas is stored in the stock, the shells should be able to be filled with flour and a BB, and the action should be smooth and simple enough to change the "pump" to something similar to Gryphon's $20 M38 Mosin Nagant. One would have to load a shell and rack the action back before doing anything else, but all of that process took long enough anyway.
TBH, I'm not too interested in reenacting much prior to WWI, but I hope this helps with at least getting some ideas going.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Sept 1, 2014 13:47:29 GMT -5
I agree that for what we would be attempting with musketry a gas base would probably be the way to go. Also flour is too heavy and dense so TALC powder would be the way to go.
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Post by volkssturm on Sept 1, 2014 20:25:40 GMT -5
OK, let me throw this idea out. We want something to make a "smoke" cloud, probably using talcum powder. Do we have to put it down the same barrel as the BB? Muskets were generally from .69 to .75 caliber. Kentucky rifles ran around .45 caliber. So, we're going to have a pretty big dummy outer barrel. Why not have the 6mmBB barrel mounted off center in the dummy barrel with a chamber underneath it to hold a charge of talcum powder. The BB could actually be fed from a magazine instead of being dropped down the barrel. Your "loading" action would involve pouring talcum powder into the chamber.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Sept 2, 2014 0:21:37 GMT -5
Heres the main problem. We can barely field ww2 people. For a line battle, youd need at least 50 people to have it worth the effort. That's over twice what we usually get out here for ww2.
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