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Post by aldrich on Dec 11, 2014 1:26:54 GMT -5
Resin helmets, when done correctly, can look just fine. Most movie props are nothing more than resin. I was once at a blankfire event where a guy was selling stacks of WWI helmets used as props in a movie. All of them looked great, but all of them were plastic. If someone has a plastic helmet that is painted great and set up in a way that no one can tell it is plastic until they are holding it, then I am fine with it. Sure they are missing out in the experience I think, but that only effects their experience of the event. It is when poor quality stand ins are used in such a way that it detracts the experience of others that a line should be drawn.
I have known quite a few players that have shown up event after event wearing old cargo pants, button down shirts, tennis shoes, and a cheap modern dress belt, and carrying a modern gun. While I completely understand a new player using these items until they acquire better kit, for many of the offenders this is their main impression that they have had for years. When their impression is brought up, they shrug it off saying that it is close enough for airsoft. This mentality has always puzzled me as not only does it detract from their experience I would think, their impression also detracts from others experience of the event as well.
I really love what 2nd Bat has done with his loaner impressions. While none of them are 100% complete when you look up close, they all have the basics down that, when put together, really set the scene. To me, the Losheim Gap photos look awesome! Even if each player isn't 100% kitted out. Perhaps I am an idealist, but I think that each player should aspire to have at least the simple easy basics down for their main impression. If they want to go beyond that for the ultimate experience, all power to them! If not, then at least they will look the part. More often than not, if the soldiers had the ability to stash their gear, this basic loadout was all they wore.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Dec 11, 2014 1:42:30 GMT -5
the people that shrug it off are part of the reason blank fire people don't like us so much and think we don't try.
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Post by ssgjoe on Dec 11, 2014 2:42:02 GMT -5
I still think that once our community grows, we should have some events that have high authenticity standards, much like the blank fire events with higher authenticity standards.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Dec 11, 2014 10:52:33 GMT -5
Aldrich and Stuka, thats why we need to get our hobby out there more. We need to show everyone, not just blank fires, that this isn't just airsofting. That this is a completely different lollipops .
I may sit with the worse German impression on the site, haha, but I know I put effort into what little I have for it at the moment. But thats what this whole thing boils down to: Effort.
Any sort of reenactment airsoft I've seen, here, Red Alliance, Vietnam Airsoft forums, is that a lot of effort is put into our impressions. Standard airsofter that attends WWII two games with tennis shoes and OD BDU's with a modern gun, while an attempt, its not an impression, PERIOD. Maybe it was to attempt to get the feel, or to fit in a WWII themed event, like whats happening this weekend in MD, but if the person decides not to upgrade it or calls it an impression, the guy is obviously wrong. And I don't know how he became the poster child of WWII airsofting in the eyes of the Blank Fire Reenactors.
I might get flamed for this, but if an airsofter is working on a US WWII impression, I wouldn't mind seeing the guy playing in a "halfway mark" in modern OD BDU's with decent web gear, helmet and a period gun for awhile. I would just hope that this hypothetical person cares to go all the way with it and just doesn't stop there...
EDIT: Wait, what? They censored the term "lollipops ". The hell?
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Post by aldrich on Dec 11, 2014 11:30:09 GMT -5
I absolutely agree! As long as someone is working on their impression, is enthusiastic and shows effort and improvement over time to reach at least a basic accurate impression, then I am happy with them coming to games wearing stand-ins that at least look ok until they can get accurate items. Their enthusiasm and dedication to improving themselves will make them a great addition to the hobby.
As for blankfire guys, many who criticize airsoft view it as something that kids do. Everything beyond that comes with a confirmation bias that means they only see that which reinforces their opinions, and in some cases they have a point. That being said, blankfire has evolved well beyond where we are now. They were having the same conversation we are now back when affordable repro gear first came on the market. We will get there too just as long as we dedicate ourselves to creating a great overall WWII experience.
I also agree that WWII airsoft needs to get out more. You cannot join what you don't know exists.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Dec 11, 2014 15:55:39 GMT -5
Yeah, I have no problem with people making some sort of an attempt to get better stuff but stagnating and not even trying to learn what is wrong is inappropriate. Just play walk on games if you're going to do that since you clearly aren't serious enough for ww2 themed games.
That may sound mean but if they're not even trying then we should really consider if they should be there or not
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Post by luftwelle93 on Dec 11, 2014 18:34:47 GMT -5
Stuka makes a good point in that many soldiers left their many of their kits behind in combat.What they needed that were small enough they stuffed in pockets.This also lessens the need to buy more stuff.WW2 airsofting has to be the most versatile and vibrant of conflicts to do.There are many guns to choose from and plenty of gear and uniforms in replica form to buy.I find it fun to compile my impression and you learn a lot of things along the way concerning uniforms,tactics,and history.
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Post by ssgjoe on Dec 11, 2014 21:32:42 GMT -5
This is true. But on the other hand, for example, you don't see German soldiers leaving their EM belts and breadbags back at camp. You can definitely find pictures saying otherwise, but the vast majority carried their breadbag, canteen, bayonet/etool, and gas mask can into combat. Maybe the most likely of these items to be left behind is the gas mask canister. And this can be applied to all nationalities and impressions, there are pieces if kit that almost everyone wore into combat. But we are reenactors, and we portray the norm, not the exception. Now I can understand if you're a new guy, and sometimes money is an issue for many, but I would highly encourage getting a good accurate kit together, and getting correct items right off the bat. But ultimately it also depends on your unit and the event you're attending.
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Post by ssgjoe on Dec 11, 2014 21:33:23 GMT -5
But part of the reason many blank fire guys wear all their gear into combat is because they don't want it to get stolen because they'll need it at camp.
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Post by patrickl29th on Dec 11, 2014 21:59:04 GMT -5
I believe you should get full field gear/webgear than you can take off stuff. I bought full US webgear and to be honest I don't wear half of it sometimes. But its always good to have it. For an example for events like a Normandy one ill run my Haversack or a late war I will just wear combat suspenders with my ammo belt.
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Post by patrickl29th on Dec 11, 2014 21:59:41 GMT -5
Get what was issued, that's the most important thing.
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Post by ssgjoe on Dec 11, 2014 22:05:49 GMT -5
Yes. I agree.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Dec 11, 2014 22:21:22 GMT -5
Exactly. Decide on a unit to do, get what they would have been issued.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Dec 11, 2014 22:44:34 GMT -5
Well yeah you can get it, but if it's a day battle, it seems kind of silly to carry dead weight. You obviously bring your EM belts and rifle pouches but you wouldn't need your pack with blanket, tent and if it goes with your pack shovel. I know with US it's a bit different but I know for Japanese, all that stuff is on our pack and many pictures that show them defending, show them not wearing the added weight
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Dec 11, 2014 23:56:28 GMT -5
Well thats what we see in pictures, but if lets say if a platoon of Germans were marching from one base to another, they obviously have all the extra gear, and they get ambushed. They aren't going to take the time to take the stuff off, they are going to fight with that stuff on.
I normally don't mind all the extra weight, to be honest. Nothing WWII related is going to weigh more than the 75lb flaks with 90lbs main packs I had to wear when I was in, haha.
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Post by aldrich on Dec 12, 2014 1:12:18 GMT -5
It really depends on the situation and you can actually tell quite a bit about the situation of troops in photos based on what they are wearing. For example, Germans defending dug out positions and not planning to move anytime soon typically aren't wearing much more than their belts with ammunition pouches/ystraps. Most of their pack can be spotted laying around the position. You see this a lot in pictures of Hurtgenwald or late eastern front. When attacking, however, troops are typically laden with all the stuff they are taking with them, which you see in a lot in pictures of early Normandy or the Battle of the Bulge. This isn't always the rule, however, as when you look at pictures of US 2nd Armored half tracks during the allied advance in Normandy they can commonly be seen stacked with the GI's spare gear, especially the haversacks. It all depends.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 12, 2014 2:09:36 GMT -5
My pet peeve on all of this is the blatantly obvious such as white sneakers or modern gear used to give one a gameplay advantage at the expense of others emmersion.
I also have no patience with players who refuse to accept loaner gear when offered. those folks get sent home at my events. I do all I can to reasonable provide an "impression" and get down right creative figuring out how to do it. WW2 Airsoft has reached a point where the compromises should keep getting to be less and less and thankfully that is what we are starting to see.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Dec 12, 2014 2:52:13 GMT -5
And that just shows disrespect as well, in a way. Back with my team in Cali. We weren't doing any team impressions and it was just the walk on game stuff. We had a few guys come and go, just to test the waters. Most of the time, the new guy usually accepted gear, cammies, and guns we offered to loan out. I always let them borrow a basic belt and suspender set, and we always had extra guns to lend out. But this one guy, he came out with us a few times, out of nowhere just started to refuse to use the gear I offered him. There was nothing wrong with it, it was assemble properly and all that, but the guy wanted to run around in standard clothes instead. We were clueless as to why, but he started to avoid questions when we asked why. So, we just stopped allowing him to come with us.
We are offering them free stuff to try out, and to look good, but they just don't want to accept. I don't know the mentality behind it. It boggles my mind.
The game in NJ last, Graham's game, I was talking to Mark about my bad German impression, and he offered to outfit me in complete, good German kit. And I'm all for that, whether it be Heer, LW, or even Kreigsmarine!
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Dec 12, 2014 4:43:37 GMT -5
Kriegsmarine?Thats...Random...
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Post by huxy on Dec 12, 2014 8:11:53 GMT -5
When I and my group go to our WW2-games, we set up two zeltbahns and kit up in full German webgear and steel helmets. Even if the game is just for a day. This is reenacment - not some lazy airsofting with WW2 guns as someone mentioned.
Of course, if someone has a weak neck or anything, I got no problem with them using alternatives. As long as it looks the part.
On a side note, blank firing weapons are illegal here so this is the only way we can reenact. We got rules when it comes to loadout - it can't be modern weapons or a half assed kit. Half assed kits are only ok if they are done properly, as can be seen in nuuuuumerous photos.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Dec 12, 2014 11:03:09 GMT -5
I'm just saying that if I'm offered a full,better German kit than what I have as a loan. I'm going to take the guy's offer on it.
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Post by aldrich on Dec 12, 2014 11:35:08 GMT -5
The biggest thing for me is the mentality of the person. Refusing to better ones self, or a lack of commitment, is indicative of a bad mentality and a lack of investment to the group and the other players. I am fine with allowing new players with a good mentality to use stand in gear that looks the part along with loaner gear. I know that in a few events time they will have put together a good basic impression and will be a great addition to the group.
Allowing stand in gear, however, can be a slippery slope because some seem to take "it is ok for now" and hear it as "it is ok period". What really aggravates me is when such people then advise newcomers against buying a good kit and tell them just to buy stand in modern gear because "it will work fine" or "that's what I do".
Designating a basic, easy to achieve standard of gear and uniforms for newcomers to attain, I think, would greatly help with this. Not only does it give newcomers a clear cut goal, but it also communicates that stand in gear is, in the long run, not acceptable for a standard impression. It can be something as simple as an appropriate WWII gun, accurate looking boots (and gaiters if applicable), replica pants, tunic, web belt, and appropriate period headgear. As long as they show progress and effort to achieve this goal, then good. If not, then WWII airsoft isn't what they were looking for.
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Post by ssgjoe on Dec 12, 2014 12:09:45 GMT -5
Buy right, buy once, cry once.
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Post by luftwelle93 on Dec 12, 2014 12:30:04 GMT -5
I try to get everything in the right details.Right now I'm doing late-war Heer and so far its coming along well.There are some non-period items that I am trying to disguise as WW2.For example I got a East German canteen.WW2 canteens,even replicas are pricey.To fix that I have added a cup on it and waiting to get repro wool cover on it.Not only will it not stand out on my kit but it will also be cheaper to do until I get an actual canteen.The bottom line for me is to inform potential players that its a WW2 event and to look as authentic as you can be.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 12, 2014 13:02:31 GMT -5
Attitude is the criteria for all of this. I know that soft caps are more comfortable than helmets and not as obtrusive from a gameplay perspective. (even the plastic ones effect hearing and get in the way more than caps). With that said I like the way helmets look and like the fact that its easy for both shooter and target to recognize a helmet hit. (the ping or twack is pretty un mistakable). For those reasons I really strive to see most players in helmets ( either metal or plastic ) as long as they look good. My German ones are quite awful so I am working on getting covers or chicken wire on all of them.
With most airsoft attracting fellow players who are more into the " fun" than into "the winning" is challenging enough as there is nothing worse than airsoft "zombies" that don't call their hits. What I truly love about historical airsoft is the same folks who are into honorably making an effort to look right are into playing honorably as well. Because its the emmersive aspect thats appealing theatrical deaths are half the fun. They seem to appreciate that it is fantasy, suspension of disbelief more than a sport and that winning though nice is quite secondary to the whole thing. The " tacticool" modern folks often fail to see this and with their 200 round repeated bursts and thrown together, do dad enhanced weapons its just not much fun (at least for me)
WW2 airsoft and NAMSOFTING is where its at for me.
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Post by patrickl29th on Dec 12, 2014 15:37:23 GMT -5
Our excuse for not having full gear shouldn't be "because were airsofters." Why don't you see blank fires wearing plastic helmets? Im not trying to compare us to blank fire reenacting but I don't think some of us don't even know what unit was issued what...
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Post by patrickl29th on Dec 12, 2014 15:38:10 GMT -5
Also having full gear with a steel helmet just feels a lot better and fun in battle, It feels more realistic.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Dec 12, 2014 15:59:24 GMT -5
Exactly. This isn't halloween, we should all strive to having what they wore, not just what vaguely looks somewhat like it...from 50 feet away.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Dec 12, 2014 16:48:37 GMT -5
I will say this about wearing metal helmets, it is pretty cool to hear a bb hit it but then you realize you're hit =P
Plastic doesn't sound as cool in that regard
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Post by luftwelle93 on Dec 12, 2014 18:12:00 GMT -5
Would plastic crack from higher FPS impact?
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