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Post by SfcMigs on Jan 18, 2015 19:33:49 GMT -5
First off I want to thank all of those who braved the cold and traveled countless hours and miles to make this event possible. I really can't give too much details about the actual fighting as I missed all of it. More on that later.
So right before I left my home to drive the four hours to Ft.Johnson NY, I got notice that 4 players we were counting on would not be attending for one reason or another. So our numbers went from 17 to 13 in a heart beat. I momentarily thought about cancelling the event but I knew that Shifty, Scott Collins and Dracul were already in route and I would never do that to anyone. So off we went.
So the meeting time was set for 08:30hrs on Saturday morning at the field. 10 of our 13 expected players were on time and freezing their butts of. Temperature at that time was -1. Yes, minus one! Needles to say, the issues started early. In a matter of 30 minutes, my AA batteries for the talkies were dead, so we had no coms. Then we had the issues of just trying to keep warm. I initiated the mission and safety briefing immediately and tried to make haste with what we had there at the time. Our numbers were 7 U.S and 2 Germans. So we decide to do a school yard pick up, but just then Graham, his dad Randy and Patrick (all Germans) showed up. Now we had a game!
But right before any of this happened, my younger son Grant told me he was having trouble feeling his feet and fingers. I immediately got him into the car and back to the hotel. There we added some layers and different gloves in an effort to give it a go. So by the time we got back(40 minutes elapsed), some fighting had occurred. As we were about to enter the AO, my older son Dean came out of the AO and told me his gun jammed and his feet were killing him. (Temp still around zero). I got him in the car and there he took off his boots and wet socks. His feet were redish purple. Not good. I tested him for pain (frost bite) massaged his feet and put wool mittens on his feet. I had to warm them up. He was done for the day. at that point, so was I. Got them back to the Hotel and I'm happy to say after some scary moments, everything turned out well.
But onto the event. I just want to say Bravo to the 10 remaining players who braved the cold and fought two attack and defend scenarios. After I took care of my boys at the hotel, I returned to pick up my brother-in-law and see what was going on. The gang was at chow time and they collectively decide they all had it for the day. Dracul then took some great pictures and off we went.
So overall for me, the event was not good, but at the same time, I very proud of all the players who traveled so far and remained to play the hobby we love so much. Eight players stated that they were gonna play on Sunday, unfortunately I could not, but I am so proud of the dedication and determination of all those who showed.
As for the actual game play, each side successfully defended their base in the two scenarios that I am aware of. I'm sure more game play AAR will follow this post.
So here's a big HOOAH for the following players:
Scott Varesio,
Dean Migs
ShiftysGarand
Scott Collins
Dracul
John Reppel
Graham (LASSAH)
Randy (Graham's Dad)
Patrick29th
Rich Fullman (New player)
Well done Gentlemen, well done,
Migs
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Post by insterburger on Jan 18, 2015 22:14:01 GMT -5
Sorry to hear the event was less than stellar, but the main thing is that everyone come home safe.
I know at last year's Bulge event we were very lucky with the weather, I guess less so this time. I suppose one good thing is being able to practically test the limits of what weather is actually feasible for this game. From the sound of it, single digit temps in winter should probably equate to a rainout in summer.
Thanks for the AAR, and sorry to hear things didn't go better. Glad there was at least some play for the guys who traveled so far.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Jan 18, 2015 22:15:19 GMT -5
Battle of the Bulge Day 2 AAR
Hey everyone,
I'd like to put a big huge thank you out to Migs for making this event happen despite all the set backs. The situation was tough and difficult for anyone to endure. I'm very glad that your boys were ok. And thank you Migs for taking care of the field fee's for Sunday so we could play. And thanks to Brownien for the loner gear and guns you left, we used what we could.
For Sunday temperatures were better at about 20 degrees and every one got to the field by 9:30. There was 8 of us able to make it, 4 Germans, and 4 Americans so at least we had even teams. But getting our guns to work was a big issue. My AGM MP40 was having feeding issues and was only working very erratically. LSSAH's almost new SHoei STG 44 was down as well (that was a big bummer cause he was dying to shoot it, as you can imagine). both the other AEG STG 44's were down as well for one reason or another. We made ample use of the CYMA spriger carbines that Dracul had and a springer trench gun and my springer BAR98. Pretty much springers were the only reliable weapon except for Dracul's King Arms Thomson, which was still working fine.
Once everyone had a working weapon we moved out to our positions around 10:30. The Germans occupied the far end of the field, near the snack shack and the Allies started out near the bridge. Both teams moved out to patrol the front line and made contact near the Black building in the middle of the AO. The Germans moved up and took the building and tried to hold that position. The Allies out flanked the position and killed 2 German soldiers. The Allies then moved in to occupy the black fort and sent out scout patrol to search for more enemy. A scout soon made contact with the Germans and was KIA. The Germans soon attacked the Allied position with renewed strength but were beaten back by fierce Allied resistance. The Germans left the vicinity and fell back to their OP while the Allies regrouped and made another push toward the German positions. A intense gun battle ensued around the bunker the Germans were operating from. Which resulted in massive casualties for both sides. Unfortunately Scottcollins took a direct hit in the front tooth and lost about half of it. At that point a truce was called for lunch and the casualties were removed from the battlefield. PFC Scottcollins will be rewarded the Purple Heart for his sacrifice in the line of duty.
The second half the day we started with another opposing patrol scenario. The Allies found the Black Fort empty and took it with ease. The Allies sent out a scout to find the enemy but was assumed KIA when he failed to return. The Allied sentries in the fort took heavy casualties from a SS sniper team and ultimately lost the fort to the Germans.
The last scenario of the day was a blast, and it made all the suffering from the cold and frustration of non working guns worth it. Both teams started at opposite ends of the field and raced to occupy the bunker position in the center of the field. The first team to capture and hold the position for 10 min would win the battle. Both teams arrived at the objective simultaneously but the Allies were all eliminated to the last man as they tried to get in the objective. The German team moved in and the timer started as a intense fire fight began. The Germans were almost able to hold it for the time limit but the Allies moved in as soon as the Germans MG gunner was reloading. All the Germans inside the bunker were killed and the Allies took control of the objective. the ensuing German counter attack was strong but not strong enough to toss the Allies back out. In a last ditch effort the Germans tried to rush the bunker in a full frontal assault but were were quickly cut down by a GI rifle squad. The Allies won the battle as they were able to defend and hold the position for the duration of the time limit.
Both sides fought bravely and with honor. Despite the extreme cold temps, low turnout and malfunctioning guns all who attended seemed to have a great time. I hope that everyone had a safe drive home, because Mother Nature was not done with us yet, and had more in store for us on our long journeys. Driving north I encountered extremely treacherous black ice conditions on the Northway and had to drive below 40mph almost the whole way home. I passed several accidents and spent a good amount of the trip praying that I would make it back safely. Its just crazy that within a 24 hour period it went from single digits to full on rain. It was a bad combination because as the rain hit the freezing road ice formed. Driving was very dicey but thankfully I'm still alive.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Jan 18, 2015 23:51:23 GMT -5
I'll start by saying it was definitely an interesting weekend. Thanks to Migs for the work of taking the reigns of the event, and to Nate, who still did his best to support everyone. Like what everyone else said, it was cold. Even for me, it was cold. I WAS COLD. Last time I was cold, I was Extreme Cold Weather training back in the Corps. And you can never have a good airsoft game with out guns going out of action, so.... The cold did indeed lead to weapon malfunctions. After some thought, my belief to why is because of the buckings in the guns. The buckings are the rubber parts that hold in the BB and gives it the back spin, and most stock buckings, are softer rubber, "soft buckings" in the airsoft world. My hypothesis is, that the cold condensed and hardened the buckings to either completely prevent the BB from shooting, or effecting the flight path of the BBs. And the air, coming from the gear box's cylinder, definitely caused temp drop. Hence why some of the guns fired once or twice before just stopping entirely. Pretty much, just imagine a rubber tube shriveling up. So why did the guns that work, work? The M1 Carbines, have low enough FPS, that the amount of air the action gives off, combined with the reloading time, doesn't cool the bucking fast enough, like an electric gun would. That latter applies to the Bolt Actions as well. Especially the ones with the strong springs, and you have to struggle to pull it back. My King Arms Thompson and M1 Garand (that I bought off from Nate): Throughout the 2 years I've owned the Thompson, this is the single, most reliable airsoft gun I have ever owned. The accuracy took a hit, because of the bucking, but it still fired. Showing testament to the reliability of it. As for the Garand, Cyma really showed that they aren't a crappy company anymore. Whatever bucking they used for the stock M14, wasn't effected by the cold. My buddy, Reppel, reported no or very little loss in accuracy since the last time he used in +40 degree weather. Cyma really did a good job there. As a tech, what I suggest to take from this: 1). Upgrade your stock, soft bucking, into a hard one. This one comes highly recommended by every and all techs. The degree means the hardness, 75 means its a hard bucking. You should want to upgrade to this anyway, to add more accuracy to your gun, in normal conditions. www.evike.com/products/42461/2). Bring a spring gun as a back up. 1 for each player. Whether its a bolt action, or a M1 Carbine. This weekend showed that they work in the extreme cold. The M1 Carbines were amazing. Maybe because they worked. But, for a stock gun, for 40 bucks, to actually perform as well as they did this weekend, should be an eye opener to get one. Random Tech Note: My LiPo batteries, even though being completely in the cold for all of Saturday, did not lose any charge whatsoever. Rounds were fun, even though they were pretty basic force on force. Hope everyone who got pulled from the action are all feeling well. To those who did: Don't feel bad, because you had the balls to still show up and attempt to play. Good team work on both sides and good tactics. Graham had a damn good shot, shot me in the neck, haha. Like the others said, we had some crazy dedication going on. You don't see this with standard, modern airsofters. It was refreshing in that sense. Second day I wore a much more accurate Scottish Black Watch impression. Always fun, and kilts are never expected. We had some harsh driving conditions as well. Luckily it got warmer on the way down through PA, but between Wilkes-Barre and Harrisburg, the fog got extremely, extremely thick. You'll see the two floating red lights from another car, and thats just it, just the lights. Outside from that, we made it back safe and sound. Well, time to unpack, reorganize, rest up, and wait to hear about the next big WWII game. Pics to follow.
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Post by SfcMigs on Jan 19, 2015 0:07:47 GMT -5
Great AAR guys. Sounds like you guys had a good time on Sunday. The drive home for me was really tough. Heavy rain and slick icy conditions. But thankfully we made it home and on time for my boys Ice Hockey Game.
Sorry to hear about Scott Collins tooth. That really sucks. Makes me think twice about wearing a mouth guard. This is why I mention in the safety briefing that we should do our best to aim center mass. But I know things like this happen. Sorry for your troubles Scott.
Just like I previously mentioned, great job by all.
I'll be working on setting something up in the spring. Just not sure where. Perhaps same place or possibly going back to GZA.
Stay tuned,
Migs
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Jan 19, 2015 12:20:03 GMT -5
Pics are up! You can view them here. Too many to embed each one individually: imgur.com/a/mVCjB#0Also, I'm missing some things, please let me know if these turn up at all in any one's cars or gear bins or whatever. -Cold Steel training knife with handle gutted to use on a Kar98 -King Arms Thompson mid cap mag -Black Microfleece watch cap Thank you!
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Post by insterburger on Jan 19, 2015 13:04:50 GMT -5
Looks like good fun despite the weather!
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stuka
Sergeant
The one and only
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Post by stuka on Jan 19, 2015 14:43:19 GMT -5
who was wearing the kilt XD how cold was that guy haha
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Jan 19, 2015 20:01:23 GMT -5
You see laddie, Sunday was at a warm temp of 30 degrees. I wasn't cold.
...
And the plan was to wear this on Saturday and German on Sunday, but then there was a lack of Germans on Saturday, I switched up my schedule.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jan 19, 2015 20:09:44 GMT -5
So cool (no pun intended) to see the pictures. The reality is you ARE NOT ordinary airsofters by anyones standards. True studs one and all. I will include that remark to flatteringly include the one brave female in attendance. During the founding battles of our great country, George Washington referred to the "Sunshine Patriots" who only showed up when it was convenient and comfortable. The ones who showed up no matter what, were the true Patriots. You all should be very proud. You are WW2 Airsofters through and through.
The reality is weather is a constant that is hard to endure and a powerful adversary. Your shared discomfort is a tribute to the brave soldiers from both sides 70 years ago who fought under similar hardships and will serve long as a crucipal of your friendship and dedication. Awesome Awesome Awesome! Hooah to you....one and all.
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ScottCollins
Private 1st Class
A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both.
Posts: 548
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Post by ScottCollins on Jan 20, 2015 21:59:02 GMT -5
Thanks 2ndBat. If I can speak for both Shifty and I, we had a great time! Even though it was a bit cold and there were some incidents, it was overall a great event. Can't wait to see you guys in the summer! (Everything is fine with my tooth now, its fixed. If you're curious imgur.com/8TcssXr )
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Ersatzjack
Corporal
"That silly Franz... he thinks we are winning."
Posts: 1,093
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Post by Ersatzjack on Jan 21, 2015 0:09:18 GMT -5
(Everything is fine with my tooth now, its fixed. If you're curious imgur.com/8TcssXr ) I was wondering about that when I saw the photos. Looks like you were born with it.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Jan 21, 2015 12:45:25 GMT -5
Thats good to see that they got that fixed up pretty fast like that!
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Post by SfcMigs on Jan 21, 2015 22:16:18 GMT -5
Thats good to see that they got that fixed up pretty fast like that! Does anyone know who took the shot? Reason why I'm asking is that's pretty disconcerting that can happen. We usually don't chrono our guns before the events, but we may have to re-think that. Just a thought, Migs
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Post by insterburger on Jan 21, 2015 22:38:11 GMT -5
I hear you, Migs. At least it would be good to know what type of gun was used and the distance involved. I don't believe the idea here is to call anyone out, get anyone in trouble, or establish liability, but having some idea of the conditions under which it occurred could go a long way to figuring out if any future precautions are necessary, and if so, what.
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Post by SfcMigs on Jan 21, 2015 23:14:03 GMT -5
I hear you, Migs. At least it would be good to know what type of gun was used and the distance involved. I don't believe the idea here is to call anyone out, get anyone in trouble, or establish liability, but having some idea of the conditions under which it occurred could go a long way to figuring out if any future precautions are necessary, and if so, what. I agree Mark. Not trying to do any such thing. Just trying to get all the info so this doesn't happen again. Like most of the players, myself and my son Dean only wear the Ansi rated clear glasses and that's it. So I'm a bit concerned that there is a possibility that either of us could be at the dentist following the event. I do understand the risks, but I think we should do our best to minimize the risks as best we can. I do propose that we put into place firm rules for FPS and safety distance. In the briefing I stated the safety distance was 50 feet. Perhaps we have to re-think that and also come up with a sensible FPS limit. I'm open to suggestions, but I can firmly say that any event I run in the future will take this occurrence into firm consideration and safety guidelines will be strictly adhered too and enforced. Migs
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Jan 21, 2015 23:30:14 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, I thought it was a springer M1 Carbine that did that.
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Ersatzjack
Corporal
"That silly Franz... he thinks we are winning."
Posts: 1,093
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Post by Ersatzjack on Jan 22, 2015 1:35:11 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, I thought it was a springer M1 Carbine that did that. I wouldn't be surprised. You can't limit your FPS to prevent this injury unless you want to start playing with Nerf weapons. Teeth and BB's don't mix when the shot is not slowed down by lip. The way to avoid teeth injuries is to keep your mouth closed in action, or wear a mouth guard or a face mask. Those are pretty much your only real options.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Jan 22, 2015 8:10:42 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, I thought it was a springer M1 Carbine that did that. I wouldn't be surprised. You can't limit your FPS to prevent this injury unless you want to start playing with Nerf weapons. Teeth and BB's don't mix when the shot is not slowed down by lip. The way to avoid teeth injuries is to keep your mouth closed in action, or wear a mouth guard or a face mask. Those are pretty much your only real options. Also, it was cold as hell. I'm sure the cold had something to do with it as well.
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Post by brownien on Jan 22, 2015 10:15:30 GMT -5
The reality of it is, teeth are very hard. But being so hard and not very dense, they are very brittle. I wouldn't be surprised if a cheap springer pistol was the culprit of tooth chipping. Even at a slow velocity of sub 300fps, a clean shot to a tooth can still manage a good abount of damage. It's the same reason so many pot metal airsoft gun components snap at weak points instead of just warping/bending. The metal is very stiff and the trade off for stiffness is brittleness. Metallurgy 101. Your safest route to take would be a face guard. Nearly a 99% safety factor there, but many in our hobby don't like the detracting look from their impression. Next best step would be a mouthguard. Chomp down on one before the fire starts and you're good to go. Down side is, unless you can find a type that is split top and bottom, you are going to have trouble talking, let alone shouting commands! I would imagine there must be a company out there that makes something that would be optimal. Lastly would be to shut your mouth! A hit in the lip may smart, but it's a lot better than a tooth hit, or having an unexpected bit of fast food on the battlefield! It's the simplest form of protection, and can be effective, but in the heat of battle, sprinting for cover, tired and nervous, are you really going to remember to keep your lips closed? I find myself doing it often. Peering out behind cover, straining my eyes to see a target, and squinting, 80% of the time when I don't think of it, my mouth comes open due to squinting. It happens. Bottom line is, we all need to take this into consideration before each event. Like eyepro, our teeth are just as vulnerable, and we need to consider what method each of us individually will accept for ourselves, and accept the consequences. Better to be safe than sorry! I personally am going to look into mouthguard options.
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Post by SfcMigs on Jan 22, 2015 10:19:21 GMT -5
I wouldn't be surprised. You can't limit your FPS to prevent this injury unless you want to start playing with Nerf weapons. Teeth and BB's don't mix when the shot is not slowed down by lip. The way to avoid teeth injuries is to keep your mouth closed in action, or wear a mouth guard or a face mask. Those are pretty much your only real options. Also, it was cold as hell. I'm sure the cold had something to do with it as well. A springer Carbine? Really? Not sure I can believe that, but anything is possible. I also agree that the cold could have had some effect. I also agree that a closed mouth is wise. We can even go further to say that perhaps a mouth piece like a football player wears wouldn't be a bad idea either. But I still feel that we need to impose some FPS guidelines. We don't have to be over the top like some fields are, but we can be within reason with the FPS limits and safety kill zones.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Jan 22, 2015 10:29:09 GMT -5
No, it was a springer bar98. Not a carbine. And both people were blind firing back and fourth at each other. Honestly, even 350 FPS could do that- it was cold as hell, and close range.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Jan 22, 2015 10:29:39 GMT -5
Also, it was not within safety kill distance- they were a decent bit away.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Jan 22, 2015 10:46:32 GMT -5
No, it was a springer bar98. Not a carbine. And both people were blind firing back and fourth at each other. Honestly, even 350 FPS could do that- it was cold as hell, and close range. My bad, then. Any luck with finding my Cold Steel knife and the other MP40 mags?
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ScottCollins
Private 1st Class
A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both.
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Post by ScottCollins on Jan 22, 2015 11:32:39 GMT -5
Yeah, it was a Bar98 but we weren't blind firing. I took cover behind some roots from a fallen tree. I popped up to shoot but missed. My mistake was I didn't move and came up in the exact same position. His sights were right on me. Probably about 60-70ft between us
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Jan 22, 2015 11:34:03 GMT -5
sracul, no luck with the knife, see if nate can find it there? I'll check for mags today, know I have some.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Jan 22, 2015 20:52:46 GMT -5
It was my Bar98, although I did not fire the shot. perhaps I should downgrade the spring. I have never chronographed it but would like to get that done. It has a SP190 spring which puts it over 450 fps and prolly around 500fps. And the ammo was a .36 bb which has quite a bit of mass to it but should slow it's velocity a bit. I was intending for it to have long range capabilities so being single shot at least I could pick off targets at a longer range than the Thompsons or BAR's giving me some advantage and realism. Indeed, I can hit targets at 100 meters which was what I was trying to achieve with it. A local airsoft field near me has fps limits for common weapons but allows players to use higher fps guns for snipers, but they have to qualify in a safety course first so that incidents like this can be avoided. But making my gun less hot would be the right thing to do in this case.
Sry Scottcollins
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Post by SfcMigs on Jan 22, 2015 21:36:52 GMT -5
It was my Bar98, although I did not fire the shot. perhaps I should downgrade the spring. I have never chronographed it but would like to get that done. It has a SP190 spring which puts it over 450 fps and prolly around 500fps. And the ammo was a .36 bb which has quite a bit of mass to it but should slow it's velocity a bit. I was intending for it to have long range capabilities so being single shot at least I could pick off targets at a longer range than the Thompsons or BAR's giving me some advantage and realism. Indeed, I can hit targets at 100 meters which was what I was trying to achieve with it. A local airsoft field near me has fps limits for common weapons but allows players to use higher fps guns for snipers, but they have to qualify in a safety course first so that incidents like this can be avoided. But making my gun less hot would be the right thing to do in this case. Sry Scottcollins Thanks for the input Jerry, I knew it couldn't have been one of those CYMA Springers. If indeed it was your gun, and the distance was 60-70 feet, it was a dangerous combination. I did set the safety kill distance for 50 feet, but I should have set a sniper rifle distance at a distance of at least 100 feet. All of these variable must be factored in at the next event. I own a Chrono and we'll openly discuss what we feel is a good distance and FPS of all types of guns. Not trying to down grade what we do, just trying to be sensible and safe. Cheers, Migs
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Ersatzjack
Corporal
"That silly Franz... he thinks we are winning."
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Post by Ersatzjack on Jan 22, 2015 23:26:35 GMT -5
While I still maintain that even a weak gun can break teeth Jerry's admission certainly explains this. If it is near 500-FPS with a .36 bb then you are a hazard out there. Perhaps that's not what you mean and mean that you have fired .20's out of it at that speed and were using .36's at this event. I've never gone higher than a 170 spring for a couple of reasons. First, a 170 assuming a decent air seal pushes a .20g bb out at between 450 and 500 FPS and secondly it is easier to work the action and easier on the other parts in the weapon. A 190 spring is beyond my buggy-whip arms ability to even cock. Maybe I could do it with a modified crossbow cocking crank. They are IMO for target practice weapons only. I would definitely change that out and cold or not, rifles especially or for that matter any weapon new or questionable at an event should always be chronographed with .20g bbs in advance.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jan 22, 2015 23:49:03 GMT -5
I have seen teeth chipped (more than once) by everyday springers (in one case it was a pistol game). As mentioned elsewhere and in threads previous to this event, teeth are very suscptible to damage from airsoft BBs. ( Brittle on brittle) is the reason. It is inherent to our weapons and our anatomy. Take preventative steps or take your chances.
Trying to limit power to prevent it is impractical as it would require FPS so low as to render our hobby unworkable. Mouthguards, full face masks or scarves pulled up in front of your mouth are pretty much it.
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