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Post by brownien on Jan 22, 2015 23:50:05 GMT -5
I agree a hot gun is a hot gun, but for a bolt action rifle, going up against semi's and full auto rifles and Smg's, you really do need the extra range to use to your advantage. I think the better way to look at this situation, is the perspective of the evolution of tank warfare durring ww2. Everyone slowly began fielding bigger and more powerful guns, 37mm...57mm...75mm...88mm...90mm. And what did the tank builders do to defend against these bigger guns? Ask them to use half charged rounds to make them shoot slower? Lol nope! Up armored their tanks! Thicker armor and sloped armor was the answer. We need to just add thicker armor, more protection. I wouldn't make it mandatory to have mouth protection, but highly reccomend it, or possibly make some form of teeth protection mandatory for participants under 18. Something of that nature. Heck in the winter it could have just been a wool toque or a scarf around the neck covering the mouth. In the summer, a parachute scarf section worn in the same fashion, a sniper veil, anything really to stop/slow a BB. I'd opt for a mouthpiece type option, something to pop in when going into battle.
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Post by insterburger on Jan 23, 2015 6:52:13 GMT -5
Other than encouraging people to cover their faces, the only other measure that could be helpful and easy to do would be to increase the "safety kill" distance for the more powerful sniper weapons.
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Jerry-ADK
Private 1st Class
Unteroffizier, Heeresgruppe Nord-Ost
Posts: 418
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Jan 23, 2015 6:59:41 GMT -5
If I am remembering correctly didn't someone else get a chipped tooth at last years Remagan game? One of Nates friends perhaps? But regardless I am still going to put a sp170 spring back in my gun. I don't think that would haved prevented a chipped tooth, a direct hit is going to do damage to brittle teeth even if it was 350fps. but it will make the gun easier and faster to cock as Ertazts suggested. I have also been hit with a bb from a Thomson at about 60-70 feet that penetrated the skin on my nose and caused a wound. So really any gun prolly has the potential to break teeth if a direct hit occurs. As 2ndBat says, it's just one of the inherent risks in our hobby. But I will always from now on try to use full seal goggles, and some form of mouth protection. My teeth and eyes are important to me. If someone is out in the open, I will use the safety kill option instead of lighting them up to spare them the risks as well and suggest to others to take these same measures to prevent injuries.
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Post by SfcMigs on Jan 23, 2015 10:10:26 GMT -5
I have seen teeth chipped (more than once) by everyday springers (in one case it was a pistol game). As mentioned elsewhere and in threads previous to this event, teeth are very suscptible to damage from airsoft BBs. ( Brittle on brittle) is the reason. It is inherent to our weapons and our anatomy. Take preventative steps or take your chances. Trying to limit power to prevent it is impractical as it would require FPS so low as to render our hobby unworkable. Mouthguards, full face masks or scarves pulled up in front of your mouth are pretty much it. Agreed 2nd Bat. I do think each one of us is responsible for his own protection regarding what protective equipment they wear. I'm also not trying to limit power to ridiculous levels, just sensible levels with sensible safety distances. Overpowered guns at close range can really cause some damage, and I'm not just talking a tooth. Sniper rifles with heavy duty springs really need to be used in a sensible and responsible manner. The user has to understand this and not use the gun under whatever safety range we decide on. He should be carrying a side arm or SMG for closer range and use his Rifle for long range. My TM Thompson shoots .20's at a constant 390-400 FPS and I'm more than satisfied with the gun. I prefer to use .25's as I feel they fly better, but I am always aware that my gun stings at ranges closer than 50feet. Point is whether or not teeth are susceptible to injury to any type of gun, we need to make sure even more serious injuries don't occur because of our negligence and we must take the necessary steps to do so. Migs
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Jan 23, 2015 11:29:16 GMT -5
As long as I'm not required to wear anything more than Eye Pro, I'll be happy. I'm willing to take the "risks". Anything more, I feel like I'm being treated like a child, like I didn't serve and I don't know how to take care of my body or weigh out risks. That really turns me away from wanting to play.
Although, thats just me. I know my other teammates and others agree with how I feel, so I'm not the only one, but I'm not going to bash for wanting to put on extra safety. If they want to wear a mask for extra protection, good on them, but as long as it isn't mandated for everyone, I'll be fine.
Because, lets face it, like others said, its the nature of the lollipops of any combat related simulation. I remember over the course of the weekend, we were talking about injuries that happen in blank fire. Forgot who mentioned this, but they told a story where a BF guy shot someone in the back with a blank, instead of shooting upwards, and that guy needed stitches. It happens, its simulated combat, its the nature of the lollipops . I play at my own risk, and that is how it should be. Play at your own risk. Only mandate Eye Pro and maybe something more protective for the ones younger than 18. Plain and simple. I would hate to see this niche in airsofting get ruled by bureaucratic nonsense like the 90% of the airsoft/paintball fields out there.
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Post by SfcMigs on Jan 23, 2015 12:15:08 GMT -5
As long as I'm not required to wear anything more than Eye Pro, I'll be happy. I'm willing to take the "risks". Anything more, I feel like I'm being treated like a child, like I didn't serve and I don't know how to take care of my body or weigh out risks. That really turns me away from wanting to play. Although, thats just me. I know my other teammates and others agree with how I feel, so I'm not the only one, but I'm not going to bash for wanting to put on extra safety. If they want to wear a mask for extra protection, good on them, but as long as it isn't mandated for everyone, I'll be fine. Because, lets face it, like others said, its the nature of the lollipops of any combat related simulation. I remember over the course of the weekend, we were talking about injuries that happen in blank fire. Forgot who mentioned this, but they told a story where a BF guy shot someone in the back with a blank, instead of shooting upwards, and that guy needed stitches. It happens, its simulated combat, its the nature of the lollipops . I play at my own risk, and that is how it should be. Play at your own risk. Only mandate Eye Pro and maybe something more protective for the ones younger than 18. Plain and simple. I would hate to see this niche in airsofting get ruled by bureaucratic nonsense like the 90% of the airsoft/paintball fields out there. Just to be clear before we all get carried away and everyone thinks I'm being ridiculous or over protective. I am not instituting new rules as for extra protective gear and/or eye wear. My son Dean and I both only wear the clear ansi glasses and that's it! My younger son Grant chooses to wear his paintball mask and we'll continue to do the same. What I'm saying is that safety distances have to be put into place as well as FPS limits. Most if not all of us have similar guns with similar FPS readings that are fine as far as I'm concerned, but if you have a gun shooting 500FPS or more, you can't take a shot from 60-70 feet away! There is "play at your risk" and then there's liability. As any field owner or anyone hosting these events, you assume liability, and I'm not gonna run any event where someone looses an eye because we weren't being prudent and cautious. So once again, I'm stressing the "let's be sensible" theme going forward. That's all. Migs
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Jan 23, 2015 12:51:32 GMT -5
And thats perfectly fair! I'm only saying that if we started to get stupidly strict with the protection, there is a problem. I mean, hell, I'll offer to bring my personal Chrono up the events here if you guys want. I understand FPS limits and all that, because anything over 600 FPS can do some insane damage, so the 500fps limit is far enough below that, but still high enough to effectively play.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jan 23, 2015 13:03:43 GMT -5
Experience has shown that Jouelle restrictions that are mutually agreed upon and set a standard are a good idea and typically they include engagement ranges for the higher FPS bolt action rifles. BBs quickly loose their inertia. (especially lighter Bbs) so even bolties firing the equivalent of20 grams at 550 FPS are typically acceptably manageable beyond 75 feet. The chrono process is complicated somewhat as some players think FPS is FPS and don't realize that a 28 gram BB at 320 is decidedly more destructive than a .20 gram BB at 320.
I have found that for simplification purposes 400 FPS on semi and full auto weapons w/ .20 gram (20 foot minimum engagement) and 550 equivalent w/ .20 gram for bolt actions with a 75 foot minimum engagement is a pretty workable standard. In reality semis and auto should be limited to 378 as tests have indicated a significant threshold of skin damage at engagement ranges above 378. the amount of Bbs we typically throw down range and close knit participants we have allows us some flez here in my opinion.
These standards incidently would most likely NOT have alterred the chipped tooth in cold temperatures as anything above 280 FPS at that range would have prpduced the result. As for protection beyond ANSIrated eye protection I believe facila and mouth protection should be up to the players tolerance of risk. I have seen events where under 16 were required towear full face masks but have mixedfeelingsabout that requirement for our hobby.
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Post by SfcMigs on Jan 23, 2015 17:07:00 GMT -5
Experience has shown that Jouelle restrictions that are mutually agreed upon and set a standard are a good idea and typically they include engagement ranges for the higher FPS bolt action rifles. BBs quickly loose their inertia. (especially lighter Bbs) so even bolties firing the equivalent of20 grams at 550 FPS are typically acceptably manageable beyond 75 feet. The chrono process is complicated somewhat as some players think FPS is FPS and don't realize that a 28 gram BB at 320 is decidedly more destructive than a .20 gram BB at 320. I have found that for simplification purposes 400 FPS on semi and full auto weapons w/ .20 gram (20 foot minimum engagement) and 550 equivalent w/ .20 gram for bolt actions with a 75 foot minimum engagement is a pretty workable standard. In reality semis and auto should be limited to 378 as tests have indicated a significant threshold of skin damage at engagement ranges above 378. the amount of Bbs we typically throw down range and close knit participants we have allows us some flez here in my opinion. These standards incidently would most likely NOT have alterred the chipped tooth in cold temperatures as anything above 280 FPS at that range would have prpduced the result. As for protection beyond ANSIrated eye protection I believe facila and mouth protection should be up to the players tolerance of risk. I have seen events where under 16 were required towear full face masks but have mixedfeelingsabout that requirement for our hobby. I agree with 2nd Bat on all of his recommended formulas. We need to institute these guidelines and rules for all and different types of guns at our next event. SMG's will have a maximum limit and the bolt action sniper rifles will have a different FPS and distance limits. As the next event approaches, we'll discuss it further.
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Ersatzjack
Corporal
"That silly Franz... he thinks we are winning."
Posts: 1,093
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Post by Ersatzjack on Jan 23, 2015 17:31:14 GMT -5
First off, as to the cold weather. I'm pretty sure the cold did not affect the temperature of the teeth in question and that they were right up there at 98.6F as they should have been. As to stand off ranges, 75-100ft is not real practical. That's because we judge distances so poorly (depth perception is not our strong point as a species) and you really wonder about carrying a rifle when almost everyone you encounter is too close to shoot at. In MOA, we use a 550-FPS max and sometimes 500-FPS max and a 50-ft rule which has not produced arguments. It's easier to estimate closer distances and then riflemen will resort to grenades or a pistol. It works for us. Frankly I'd rather be hit by one fast moving bb then five that are moving at 390-FPS. As to the inherent dangers involved, bbs are at the bottom of the list really. The terrain involved (boulders, trees branches, barbed wire, potholes), heat or cold injuries and over-taxing yourself would be of more concern to me. Heck kids in high school sports are regulars at the ER for a variety of serious injuries. Stuff happens.
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Post by insterburger on Jan 23, 2015 18:10:09 GMT -5
I think expecting riflemen to engage at shorter distances with an alternate weapon would work against this hobby. As we shoot (no pun intended) for added realism, trying to get more bolt actions into the field is a good thing. The one and only advantage these have is added range, so either limiting FPS or expecting players to juggle a 98k and an MP40 (or a Springfield and a Thompson) is a bit unrealistic and will make people simply abandon these weapons, which would be a shame. Sidearms are fine, but not always a wise option in some of the states where we play (i.e. New Jersey). Probably it comes back to setting reasonable safety kill distances that are based on the power of the gun. What ranges should those be? Good question, and worth some debate.
And Migs, I don't think anyone is accusing you of being over the top here. The discussion comes down to balancing risks with safety measures, and it's just that-- a discussion. It's well worth hearing everyone's opinions and ideas. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that yours are appreciated.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Jan 23, 2015 18:22:57 GMT -5
Most fields out there do have the idea of full auto limit is 400fps w/ .20's and semi/bolt action of 500 or 550 fps w/ .20's. I mostly follow that, except that since I'm a stickler for accuracy, I believe the limits should be with .25's, like 400fps w/ .25's for full auto/semi.
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shiftysgarand
Corporal
BangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangPING
Posts: 1,165
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Post by shiftysgarand on Jan 23, 2015 19:44:43 GMT -5
Whatever the power level, the weapon needs to be chronoed with the BBs it will be using. If an AEG is chronoed with .2g BBs and is found to shoot at 400 fps, at the fields near me the user would be given a 20 ft MED. However, if the user uses .4g BBs, those will do damage out to a distance far greater than 20 ft. And then when somebody gets a tooth shot out, they will blame the power levels. Lowering power levels won't solve everything, BB weight has to be considered too.
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Post by SfcMigs on Jan 23, 2015 21:30:25 GMT -5
All good points.
I do agree with the 400FPS as a standard with most of the AEG's, but my main concern is the sniper rifles at close range. A gun with a 190 spring firing a heavy BB is extremely dangerous. Truth be told, I'm not even sure if the eye pro glasses would hold up. And I'm not willing to find out. I also agree that the cold had nothing to do with the tooth breaking. I think it was doomed from the moment that bb made contact! I do think that for those of us who wear just the clear eye pro glasses, perhaps a athletic mouth piece wouldn't be a bad idea. I recall the boys from VA used to wear them all the time. Didn't really affect their play and didn't change the look of their impressions. This of course would be optional and not mandatory.
But all in all, I just want us to be safe and sensible here. We are always looking for realism and I think a sniper should be just that. Long range and lethal.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Jan 24, 2015 0:11:39 GMT -5
I suggest investing in a set of ESS or Oakley Ballistics glasses or goggles. Most of their stuff comes with clear lenses to uses, all good stuff and all military grade and issued. Meant for explosions and shrapnel, much more structurally sound than some hardware store safety or "airsoft rated" glasses.
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Post by SfcMigs on Jan 24, 2015 19:07:30 GMT -5
I suggest investing in a set of ESS or Oakley Ballistics glasses or goggles. Most of their stuff comes with clear lenses to uses, all good stuff and all military grade and issued. Meant for explosions and shrapnel, much more structurally sound than some hardware store safety or "airsoft rated" glasses. That's a good suggestion. Can you provide a link?
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Jan 24, 2015 22:41:17 GMT -5
I can provide many links! I'm only going to provide examples and you can go browse the rest of the respective sites, as they have wide selection of ballistics. ESS Crossbow, the 2x Kit is actually the current USMC issued eye pro. I had a set when I was in, but they made return them... www.esseyepro.com/Crossbow_211_category.htmlOakley M-Frame, my personal pair of eye pro, lasted me over 4 years and they can still take a beating: www.oakleysi.com/Product_Detail.cfm?id=10Unfortunately you can't order from that specific Oakley site, since its meant only for Gov't and Military. HOWEVER, if you ever find yourself at an Oakley store at a mall or whatever, they SHOULD have these or be able to order them for you.
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Post by insterburger on Jan 24, 2015 23:38:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the info, Drac. The clear ones are not even particularly obtrusive.
Teeth I can understand taking chances with, they can (usually) be fixed easily enough. Eyes are another matter.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Jan 25, 2015 0:20:40 GMT -5
You're welcome! Again, don't just look at the links, browse their sites, a lot more different styles and what not. If you want full sealed stuff, they got goggles and air frame kits for the M-Frames. Which is a gasket made to clip onto the M-frames, specifically for air crewmen to prevent a crap ton of dust and sand kicked up by helicopters taking off and landing. AND, I think fields that force full seal goggles, usually allow these air frame kits. You know, without wearing goggles that fog up and such.
I know, I know, none of which are WWII styled, but these are the best money can buy, aren't too much more distracting than the standard safety glasses.
Personally, I love the transitional lenses! Keeps the sun out and I perfect for constant light changes (like woodlands and house to house, street to street). I love them.
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Post by SfcMigs on Jan 25, 2015 1:25:19 GMT -5
You're welcome! Again, don't just look at the links, browse their sites, a lot more different styles and what not. If you want full sealed stuff, they got goggles and air frame kits for the M-Frames. Which is a gasket made to clip onto the M-frames, specifically for air crewmen to prevent a crap ton of dust and sand kicked up by helicopters taking off and landing. AND, I think fields that force full seal goggles, usually allow these air frame kits. You know, without wearing goggles that fog up and such. I know, I know, none of which are WWII styled, but these are the best money can buy, aren't too much more distracting than the standard safety glasses. Personally, I love the transitional lenses! Keeps the sun out and I perfect for constant light changes (like woodlands and house to house, street to street). I love them. Thanks for the info. I'll be ordering these real soon!!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jan 25, 2015 13:49:00 GMT -5
There are formulas for calculating what the FPS will be with heavier BBs based on a FPS in the same gun using .20 gram. Using .20 gram for all guns to chrono simply establishes a "jouelle" standard and simplifys greatly your safety set. The gun creates the power and with rare exceptions (long barreled gas guns) the jouelle rating from the same gun will remain constant regardless of the BBs used. So if your gun shoots 390 with .20 gram and then lowers to 362 with .25 and 350 with .28 the damage potential remains constant even with the assorted BBs and varied FPS. Its not the FPS but the inertia and energy that hurts!
To establish 400 FPS for semi auto AEGs using .25 would be the same as making it 440 for .20. The resulting enertia and range available from 400 FPSfor .20s is plenty powerful enough for our hobby and in my opinion too great for full auto guns (The limited ammo and encouragement of short bursts helps mitigate that however).
Range estimation is quite hard and indeed 75 feet is probably not something most people can effectively guage. Even 20 feet was hard! we just said a car length distance and have a rope with an orange soft ball to toss out in our safety briefing so people can visualize it. I was never a fan of minimum distances but conversely am a fan of full face masks! I typically use a contoured shaped mesh mask for spray and pray games but don't like the look at reenactment events. My so added eyebrows and face characteristics however that made it look okay at range.
I would concede the 50 foot bolt action limit with trusted responsible players. Inside of 50 feet odds are they'd prefer to pull out their pistol anyway! (I would).
A real consideration when considering safety is to realize that in close in skirmishes in built up areas or woods, once the engagement begins, people take cover and when shooting back often only their face, an arm and a portion of shoulder is exposed. Thats why in Vietnam rifle wounds were so disproportianately head and neck shots and upper bodywounds. Similarly in airsoft a move to ban head or face shots is frankly impractical. A nice jesture and a true courtesy when possible but as a rule not practical.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 2, 2015 17:03:57 GMT -5
Still missing my Cold Steel knife/bayonet. Has anyone found it at all?
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 2, 2015 22:50:09 GMT -5
You know if I recall it was stuck in someones tooth!
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 3, 2015 3:02:30 GMT -5
If it was stuck in someone's tooth, I'd know where it is! hahaha.
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