stuka
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Post by stuka on Apr 25, 2015 18:01:32 GMT -5
Ok so we aren't manufactures(well maybe 2ndbat is =P) so weapons can't really be massed produced but what can we do to increase population of ww2 airsofters?
Do people know that this is a thing?
If they do, what's stopping them from joining?
How can we help them join?
Are weapons really that big of a player here? (Do people want specific guns but they aren't available/expansive so they don't join)
Are the uniform requirements a turn off? (Asking people to show up day 1 in full Heer/US is a bit much but we also can't let people stay OD/Grey forever)
Should uniform requirements be progressive? (Game 1, you are allowed to be more lax but making an attempt and as games go on you should get better and better gear?)
How does our community look to new people? (Are we to strong in our requirements or to lax? Are we mean or nice?)
Is the forum easy access?(Not sure if we can really change that, I know I sometimes get confused)
What is it that we want above all else? (Games? Authenticity? Players? Weapons? Could one lead to the others being fulfilled?)
What makes "modern" popular?
Lastly,(That I can think of) what do new people want?
Sorry if this isn't the best format but unfortunately in Florida things aren't going to well but if we can address these problems/questions maybe WW2 airsoft will grow nationally.
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Post by ssgjoe on Apr 25, 2015 19:15:13 GMT -5
It has more to do with the uniform.
1. No one knows where to get them! Everyone interested asks "were can I get a uniform?" Modern airsofters can just go to the surplus store, we can't.
2. Uniforms are expensive. I know a lot of people who get interested, tell me they'll buy some things at the end of the week, but don't end up doing it. We need to do what BF units do and what 2nd Bat does and have a bunch of loaner gear at each game and advertise a lot for them outside this forum. Post to other forums and FB groups, specify how many loaner kits there are and they will be a first come first serve basis, and maybe more CoDsofters will want to try out WWII airsoft.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 26, 2015 12:31:13 GMT -5
There is such a fine balancing act here with MILSIM in general where uniform standards have to be established and then firmly adhered to. In the early days just getting folks to go with noticeably different colored uniforms met with great resistance. (Tan vs Green) in the Lion Claws series. Current Milsim events like MILSIM West events show how far this has come as weapons and uniform restrictions are implemented down to individually accepted patterns at their events which have grown from a ozen players to several hundred.
The key was starting very basic but With firm rules and no tolerance when standards weren't met. That way folks wanting to participate knew there was no fudge room. The zealots provided the supplemental fill ins needed to grow the hobby. Early adopters quickly ramped up and standards continued to be more expansive over time. Enrollments expanded the number of zealots which further epanded the opportunities for others to join in.
Hobbies like this require drivers. Mavens who devote the focus and energy to kick start and run events, keep the communication alive and lead others. This is hard, expensive and very time consuming without these key folks things stagnate or never get off the ground. Showcase what you love by attending events in your impressions. Wet peoples curiosity and be a great honorable player at other events. When possible show up as a group. Perfection isn't required here as to the uninformed you'll look fabulous and be noticed. Be tolerant of others who don't get it or who know little about history or uniforms and gear. Don't be the know it all stitch NAZI whose life revolves around always being right. Be prepared to share not force what you know or have. Support the event drivers by attending when you can and focus on the positives of each event. If you have complaints about an event air them one on one NOT publicly. I know many an event sponsor ho funneled funds, energy, countless hours of thought and considerable sacrifice from careers, family and other distractions to host an event only to get blasted by a player who felt the event for them was a bust gecause the other team didn't walk blindly into their ill conceived ambush or roll over from their" ingenius" attack plan.
Don't concern yourself initially with how many or what folks are coming. Focus on having the best time you can with whoever shows up. Take lots of pictures. Make the event sound as fabulous as possible in your posted comments so the sunshine patriots who promised to come but didn't ill feel as bad about it as possible. Make sure the level of sportsmanship and honor is as high as you personally can make it and remember for historical airsoft its more about emmersion than winning so stay in character as much as you can.
Have fun! Fun is contagious and this is a disease we want to be sure other people catch.
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Post by hardslack on Apr 28, 2015 9:21:34 GMT -5
As someone who doesn't actually WW2 airsoft, I think most people who like to airsoft would love ww2 airsoft. I mean, we're all playing army anyway, and most of us probably cut our teeth on ww2 movies, so the appeal is in my mind pretty widespread. The problem is where to play, and the uniforms. I have really been impressed with the AAR's of ww2 events I read on here with less then a dozen guys. THey sound like awesome games and a real good time, Im impressed with what is accomplished with only tiny teams. It really just takes dedication, and has motivated me to be more active in hosting games where I live and airsoft in any form is pretty weak. For me personally the obstacle to ww2 airsoft is the uniform requirements. To me it looks hard to be a casual ww2 airsofter, you have to research your particular unit and pour over old photos to see if they used m19 this or that. To me, it seems like you would have to spend all this time getting your uniform up to par. But, im not sure this is accurate. From the event postings I have seen, have reasonable allowances for uniforms. Its like 2nd Bat said, about a balancing act. But even more than modern type games. At a certain point, you need the uniforms and the weapons, or its not really ww2 airsoft, but the requirements cant be too stringent, or the appeal is too limited. Also, to lax of requirements and you will attract too casual of players.
Ultimately, I'd say the biggest driver for ww2 airsoft and really any airsoft is a passionate leader. If you want to grow the scene, be the scene. Get your uniform where you would want others to be, go to games in it. Host ww2 themed games. If you get fun players numbers matter less. I hosted a great game with 5 total players. The biggest draw for ww2 airsoft and me is reading about the games on here. They sound fun, tactically exciting, and I keep thinking how cool it would be to see the german and american (and others, I know) uniforms fighting it out.
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Post by OwO Jima on May 19, 2015 3:56:07 GMT -5
I've been airsofting for roughly five years now, and for the entire time I've only done historical impressions (started with Vietnam, and I'm finally transitioning to WWII). The entire time, I've offered my knowledge and spare kit to other local airsofters in hopes that I could gain enough interest to form a historical based team - yet in all five years not a single person has asked to borrow kit or approached me seeking information. Oddly enough, I frequently hear "I've always wanted to do WWII/ Vietnam..." or "I'd do WWII/ Vietnam if I had the money..." every time I've gone to a game, so I too have always wondered "What's stopping you?"
Some time ago, I realized that using a historical impression for an airsoft loadout is actually rather pointless. There is literately no tactical advantage to using 50, 60 or 70 year old uniforms, weapons, and equipment (or replicas of) in a sport where the majority of the players are using the latest and greatest toys and tech without any limitations (whereas we are limited to what was actually done during the period, by the units we portray).
With that in mind, I came to the conclusion that, just as I'm too wrapped up in historical impressions to start a modern kit, modern airsofters are, for the most part, too wrapped up in what they're doing to start WWII. They're concerned with effectiveness in the field, and the perceived "ineffectiveness" of old equipment, with the inability to "just do whatever you want", I feel, is the main force driving people off.
But a smaller community does have it's upsides too - with fewer, but more dedicated and enthusiastic players, the community can maintain a higher level of authenticity, and games, while fewer and more spread out, can be more immersive and tactical. Honestly, that's what I personally prefer.
I'll keep using my impressions at airsoft games - maybe one day I'll get someone who's genuinely interested to join me. I've long heard that the best way to gain interest is to just be active in the community, so I'll keep trying till I can't try no more!
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Post by quade on Aug 21, 2015 16:07:24 GMT -5
I'm really big into the ww2 airsoft movement and about to take initiative on making poeple who like me when I was younger wanted to play as a ww2 soldier. Uniforms and ww2 weapons are some of the the things that stops anyone from getting to enjoy the feel and experience. Since I am a contract worker and have made decent money for the past 3 to 4 years, iv decided to my next steps to help younger and new generation in airsoft enjoy ww2aa. I will be purchasing up to 8 german camo smocks since they are not as expensive as german full heer uniforms like I own. 8 ww2 US look alike shirts. I will be buying green and black belts to help the look with these smocks and shirts. I'm also ordering plastic 10 german and 10 US helmets from a company that makes them. The big investment I will be tacking since the airsoft guns have gotten alot better since I was a kid will be 5 kar98, 5 Springfields, 3 mp40, 3 Thompsons. And if possible a matrix mg42. I own 2 high quality german loadouts tanaka kar98, mg42, mp40. I'm going to start hosting ww2games at my local field and rent out this gear and equipment to the poeple that attend. I'm going to enforce no modern assult rifles and try to keep it single shot Acton besides the mgs exceptions. I know I would of love to had this option when I started playing. Ww2 theme games and rules. I'm still talking deals with some companies to get these items as cheap as possible but will see this threw. A few things did put a hold on this dream but everything's looks good right now. This is what I'm going to do for my local airsoft community to help ww2aa.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Aug 23, 2015 12:39:16 GMT -5
I strongly believe in your approach and have seen it work here in the Northwest. You will not likely bust out or pay off your expenses for a long time (if ever) but you will create a foundation to kickstart WW2 airsoft in your area. If I may recommend the Cheap CYMA carbines as a consideration for loaner/ rental guns they are cheap but highly functional and were in common use by the US and were very popular with German troops as well.
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Post by princeofpinoys on Aug 24, 2015 20:54:24 GMT -5
In my experience a big part of it is being relaxed about uniform requirements, people are not made of money so asking them to buy ATF and other good uniforms is half the time out of the question. Pointing them to chinese repos and such, stuff that wont bust their budget is much more appealing, also letting them aquire the gear on their own time schedule, rushing them only makes them have bad choices and makes them feel isolated and ostracized. Something that we should want to avoid as a minority in airsoft.
Let new people use substitute gear, like austrian y straps, post war bundy ones, normal black leather belt etc...its not going to kill you, not going to rewrite history or rip space and time if they have no period correct uniforms starting out. BUT they should know that their inaccurate gear WILL have to be replaced sometime in the future. This will allow them to look somewhat the part, but more importantly FEEL that they are apart of us. The most important part about getting people is making sure that they feel like they belong.
Recruiting in my group has been successful in finding other WW2 airsofters with this route of progressive induction, some have gone the route of using post war gear and other goes straight to buying from Hessen, What also has helped is us Veterans in the team are selling off our old gear to the new people so that they dont have to pay as much for proper gear.
Our main issues with us recruiting is; people not being educated enough about WW2, Not wanting to play an entirely different slower style of airsoft, and people not wanting to spend the time and money to build the kit. Other minor issues are; age, distance, and wanting to be some bizarre random rank
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Navy Doc
Private
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
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Post by Navy Doc on Aug 30, 2015 16:43:19 GMT -5
Getting Out There:When I talk to people about joining, they seem interested, but even when I offer up one of the many loaner kits we (me and Dracul) have, they usually have to turn it down because of time constraints of some form or another. Distance is also an issue- only 1 of the people we've recruited has actually joined us for events that were out of state (Maryland). What We Need:---I feel, too, like having a lot more pictures of events as well as doing historical-reenactment stuff other than battles would really draw people in. Having galleries of pictures from events might persuade people to give it a go. ---I've also been considering getting some WW2AA business cards, of sorts, to hand out to people when they ask about this hobby so they can find the site. T-shirts are also great conversation-starters. If anyone besides me is interested, I can look into designs and cost for both of these. ---We should also probably open up the site to advertisements from other Proboards and Jcink/Invisionfree sites; I've administrated my own Proboards sites, and a great way to get attention and bring in traffic is by advertising on and affiliating with other sites, and publishing ourselves to a directory. ---Polishing up the site would likely help keep people reading; I'm happy to offer a hand if need be. ---"Dummy's Guide to WW2 Airsofting"; people comment that having to do homework might demotivate some people to try the sport. Taking a lot of the thinking out of it will probably kick a few butts into gear to obtain what they need. ---"Dummy's Guide to WW2AA Site"; having an index of helpful links is a must. Being unable to find things is a big deterrent when looking at new sites. ---Carpools and hotels. When we plan events, having a thread for potential carpools and hotel roommates would probably increase attendance (because who doesn't love to save money?); those who volunteer for this can work out logistics with anyone who might be taking them up on the offer. Note: If any or all of these things are already being implemented, they should be easy for a first-time user to locate and understand.
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Post by CPL. Mills 2nd Rangers on Oct 4, 2015 3:54:23 GMT -5
With sites like www.hikishop.com/ I don't see why people are so turned off by buying uniforms or gear. Personally I wouldn't buy much from them since their stuff is of low quality. But their gear looks the part enough. Tom and I have enough gear to outfit about 10 guys and we have a hard time finding regulars. I do agree about getting the site updated. the ww2aa.com site has had the weapons section under construction for some time now, I haven't had any free time to finish that section. Putting in a helpful link section is a good idea. As for advertising that costs money, I've looked into how much it costs to advertise about 5 years ago I couldn't afford to do so then but I could look into it again now.
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Navy Doc
Private
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
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Post by Navy Doc on Oct 4, 2015 11:16:12 GMT -5
CPL. Mills 2nd RangersNot paid advertising, just posting advertisements on other sites in the form of a thread. I'd be more than happy to help update the look of the site if you need assistance; I skinned my own proboard site, So Shiny, So Chrome if you want to use that as a reference. (I had several complete newbies review it for ease of navigation, appearance and understandability and got high marks, I would want to organize this site in a similar fashion)
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 4, 2015 20:56:08 GMT -5
Start somewhere! Even if your gathering is modest get pictures and post anAAR on local airsoft group sites. Every conquest is a victory so have on hand loaner gear to minimize their initial outlay. Once attendance starts to get reasonable shoot and you tube a video. Fun is contagious!have fun and don't take yourself too seriously as the perception of that scares people away.
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Post by LT. Zach on Oct 6, 2015 15:03:00 GMT -5
My idea on recruitment.
I've thought of many ways to get airsofters into WWII airsoft. Since I'm a ww2 Reenactor I've always thought how hard would it be to get some of the Reenactors into airsoft? They have the love of history, 100% accurate uniforms, and all they would really need to get is essentially airsoft supplies minus the uniform and gear. Honestly something to think about.
Thought I'd throw my five cents in.
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Post by aldrich on Oct 6, 2015 17:24:02 GMT -5
In my experience, many view airsoft as a kid thing. Airsoft guns are seen as silly toys for people who just want to run around in the woods... and then they go run around in the woods. I think the biggest stigma is that some cannot separate the image of a couple of middle-schoolers with cheap guns from the idea of airsoft. There are, however, many who would be willing to try. I find that by presenting your group as a top notch reenactment group that really takes things seriously is a good way to lure in people in the reenacting community that are interested in airsoft.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 6, 2015 22:11:21 GMT -5
The reenacting community for the most part sees airsoft as sophomoric and beneath them. You can occasionally lure members in but standards amongst your participants have to be high. Also be real careful NOT to perpetuate an "us vs " them" mentality. They really are two different hobbies. Be sure your events don't conflict with BF events as perceived divided loyalties cause additional rifts and animosity between the communities. Attend and be an active participant in their events if you expect key leaders in their organizations to be supportive of yours.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Oct 6, 2015 23:39:54 GMT -5
This is one reason why I strive to make my loaner gear and kits look good.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 7, 2015 12:02:06 GMT -5
My German set ups fall far short of their standards but so long as the folks you get to attend know that, you're usually okay. I suggest I'd love for them to be there to model what's right and further the education. The fear of course is they'll belittle the folks present in my substandard loaners.
The folks who agree to attend have thus far been great.
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shutzefritz
Private
There is room for all of god's creatures ... right next to the mashed potatoes
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Post by shutzefritz on Nov 8, 2015 20:29:20 GMT -5
In my experience the judgemental, and overly critical attitude of some of those in the sport has done more to drive away those already involved and interested than could be hoped for in future recruitments.
With respect,
Shutze
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Post by LT. Zach on Nov 9, 2015 13:02:33 GMT -5
To go along with my other post I posted. In the reenacting community there are younger Reenactors who reenact, not all are older Reenactors who would think airsoft is a bit not for them and rightfully so. What I mean by this is there are a few younger Reenactors out there who should be recognized for ww2 airsoft.
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Navy Doc
Private
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
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Post by Navy Doc on Nov 9, 2015 15:15:39 GMT -5
CPL. Mills 2nd Rangers At The Front is a popular site for people to look at and buy WW2 uniforms; they also have a calendar of events. I think it would definitely be worth our while to use that to our advantage. The calendar links to the site 20th-Century-GI, and events get posted on ATF's calendar.
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Post by LT. Zach on Nov 9, 2015 23:20:07 GMT -5
Navy Doc I agree. Most of my reenactment gear I get from atthefront.com I would totally recommend them to anyone looking for repro ww2 clothing/gear
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Navy Doc
Private
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
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Post by Navy Doc on Nov 10, 2015 11:10:07 GMT -5
I think, also, we should have a 'getting started' thread outlining for newbies how to build a basic kit, with links to resources included.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Nov 10, 2015 12:41:47 GMT -5
While there are plenty of resources for kit building out there, from Blank Fire and Living History groups and such, I do agree that it would help if we had our own "Beginner guides" local in these forums.
Not just "here are some good sites to go to get these items," but more like standard detailed reenactment guides that explain the different kits one can do and breaks it down.
I personally like how the Vietnam Airsoft forums breaks things down by stages.
But having it local to the forums will mean less searching for the individual, and all the information one might need will be here, and not taking stabs into the internet darkness. Especially if the one who is interested is coming from airsofting, and he or she doesn't know jack about WWII uniforms and gear. Or they go onto other reenactment sites and see things like rank structures and "you can ONLY wear M40 tunics and jack boots" mentalities, which I know is a turn off to some. I know that turned me away from wanting to join other reenactment groups and other airsoft teams.
Being a vet myself makes me actually have a strong distaste for anything not actual military using rank structures and chain of commands and such. I perfectly understand for gameplay, but just gameplay, outside of that, just no. But that could just be me and having a few bad run-ins with stolen valor a s s holes and "hardcore milsimmers."
Back to the point, if we had everything one would need here, I think it would it be a good help. It certainly wouldn't hurt! If someone is coming over from BF, they are just skipping that, but it might be critical for the completely new-to-reenacting, just coming from airsoft guys.
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Navy Doc
Private
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
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Post by Navy Doc on Nov 10, 2015 13:13:06 GMT -5
On the site I administrate, I have a sidebar which includes a dropdown menu of important links; the very first link goes to a Getting Started thread to make the site seem less confusing for a complete newcomer. I've had brand-new members, ProBoards veterans and dedicated site reviews all remark that it was a very valuable resource to help them understand the site and know where to start.
I definitely think that such a thread (and a sidebar with that Important Links list), maybe with one post per country with links/pictures of places to use for references or to purchase gear, would encourage more people to give the sport a try, especially if we lay out a potential budget per kit (and try to get that budget as low as possible without sacrificing too much authenticity).
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Nov 10, 2015 14:40:11 GMT -5
It would need to be more broken down than just that. Outside of the Commonwealth countries, each country, respective branches, and specialty units all had a whole plethora of uniforms and gear. One for each branch of each country should be suitable. If too complicated or long, off shoot threads to detail specific units can be had as well (German Pioneers, Scottish Blackwatch, Luftwaffe Field Divisions. Just giving out examples, not saying we need those specifically).
We could sticky them in the Axis and Allied Period Impressions sections. A "Getting Started" post or thread can link to those.
We already have a stickied thread for good and reputable sites to go to. "List of good websites for noobies." We can include links in the uniform and kit breakdown threads, but that would be a lot of links to gather and maintain over time. I think the thread of sites now is better and easier to maintain, since you never know when that site you linked an item is going to be out of stock or they just stopped carrying it, or the site/store goes out of business. The thread of sites as plenty of links to plenty of retailers, so if something happens to one site, there will be plenty of back up sites to go to.
This is definitely a concern since a lot of the cheaper stuff are directly from Chinese sites and Chinese eBay stores.
We could give suggestions for items that would be damned close. Like an early post-war Greek Battledress, post-war Dutch P37 webbing, or the acceptable WWI buckles for German belts.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 10, 2015 23:39:17 GMT -5
So it sounds like we need a separate thread (perhaps in the unit recruiting\ impressions section). Or maybe way up at the head of the threads that welcomes new visitors and gives a brief orientation on our hobby and what minimalistic gear and uniforms they might need for the assorted belligerents?
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 10, 2015 23:48:09 GMT -5
Ideally, we should have a downright Beginners thread, like right at the top. That will explain what we do, our goals, how this site works, then of course all the links. Links going to the Good Websites for Noobies thread, these hypothetical uniform and kit breakdown threads (which should have the minimalistic uniform and kit in them), the modern available weapon thread that we have somewhere.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Nov 11, 2015 23:07:16 GMT -5
Younger reenactors, surprisingly, = more hardcore than older ones (in many cases). Want younger reenactors to get involved? step up the game. simple answer, that is.
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Post by ssgjoe on Nov 12, 2015 2:39:55 GMT -5
I think that blank fire reenacting has more potential as a "recruiting pool" than regular airsoft. But the biggest turn off for blank fire reenactors is the lack of authenticity standards
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Nov 12, 2015 7:37:08 GMT -5
I think the "recruiting pool" of BF or airsofters thing really area dependent.
It seems like for Maryland, airsofting outweighs WWII BF/LH events (Civil War seems to be the prominent BF/LH era here).
I think that anyone who is open minded enough to try out our niche hobby, is open minded enough to understand what we can and cannot do, and what we lack (due to costs or airsoft limitations).
Thats not to say that impression quality needs to be entirely lax and lacking. Personal impressions need to be good. There needs to be good examples of uniform and kits from the regular WWII airsofters, as an example, so that we can tell anyone borrowing a complete loaner kit that, "This is how good/cool/whatever you can look if you get your own proper kit."
My idea is to encourage the loaner kit players, if they like this, to go and get proper kit, and of course explaining to them that the more hokey items on the kits are a no-go for their personal impression. And what they are wearing are like "trial kits."
With that said though, I still very much plan on replacing the stopgaps that are in my loaner kits (especially plastic helms and 2 cell pouches). Its going to take time to get good deals, but thats my intent.
One idea I've been playing around with in my head is having two levels of loaner kits. Such as "Trial" and "Pro." Trial would have more hokey items, two cell pouches, plastic helms, springer M1 Carbines, etc etc, but "Pro" kits would be the legit stuff, wools, better helmets, Kar98s, etc etc.
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