Navy Doc
Private
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
Posts: 38
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Post by Navy Doc on Nov 12, 2015 9:13:09 GMT -5
So it sounds like we need a separate thread (perhaps in the unit recruiting\ impressions section). Or maybe way up at the head of the threads that welcomes new visitors and gives a brief orientation on our hobby and what minimalistic gear and uniforms they might need for the assorted belligerents? Ideally, we should have a downright Beginners thread, like right at the top. That will explain what we do, our goals, how this site works, then of course all the links. Links going to the Good Websites for Noobies thread, these hypothetical uniform and kit breakdown threads (which should have the minimalistic uniform and kit in them), the modern available weapon thread that we have somewhere. Absolutely; but equally important, these threads need to be very easy for a newbie to find. On any forum I've ever belonged to, few things are more discouraging than having a hard time finding important threads (hence my suggestion of the sidebar, which ProBoards offers a free plugin to install). I've also had a lot of success on my own sites by having the very first forum at the top be a Getting Started-type forum, so everything a newcomer would want to know is in one place.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 12, 2015 19:21:47 GMT -5
Seeing this discussion, and some of the other discussions that have been taking place lately, I think there's one problem we have which may (or very well may not) be fruitful to talk about. Before I start, I just want to say that I'd like to type freely and throw my thoughts out there. Not just in WWII airsoft but in all my circles, there are people with whom I disagree-- on topics much more important with real repercussions than this-- who I consider dear friends and would lay down my life for. Likewise, while I don't see eye to eye with everyone here on everything, I greatly respect everyone and their opinions, and those I know from events I consider good friends. So I'm not saying one person (including myself) is right, or another is wrong, just pointing out differences.
So with that preamble out of the way, here's the problem: The one thing that EVERY company with a product to sell does before they spend penny #1 on marketing, before they get the word out to anyone, before they promote anything, is something we have not done (and are possibly incapable of doing): They create a well-defined brand.
My wife works in branding. It's a bit of an art form, but at its basis are some concrete steps, which include figuring out who your base demographic is, how far you can push the boundaries of that demo without losing your core, and-- importantly-- creating an expectation of what "product" you're going to offer, then meeting that expectation. Our problem is that we sit somewhere between the worlds of modern airsoft and BF reenacting. Both of those hobbies (for better or worse) seem to have a pretty consistent brand-- you know what you'll get, within reasonable parameters, showing up to an airsoft field on a typical Sunday [SHUDDER] and likewise you have a pretty good idea of what standards are going to be present at a WWII blankfire event. We, however, lack a well-defined identity. With members who place a high premium on uniform standards, and others who don't mind anachronism and costume-level impressions, we don't really have any sort of meaningful "brand" that we can market to people. A "WWII Airsoft" game could range from an immersive non-stop milsim with high standards in uniform, gear, and staying in character, to an on-again/off-again day of skirmishes punctuated by good natured hanging out, to a game where clearly innacurate or anachronistic gear or uniforms are welcome, to a game where "WWII" is more a concept than an immersion and Captain America might join the fray. I am not passing judgment or saying which of these is best (though I have my opinions), or telling anyone how to play the game, but without a much more unified hobby we are really not in a position to meaningfully market ourselves. If we try to be all things to all people, we will be nothing to anyone.
Imagine if you had a restaurant chain with the same scope of brand that WWII airsoft has. When you see the logo on the "next exit" sign, you have no idea if you'll get a burger joint, a sit down restaurant, or a lunch counter. Maybe they have a salad bar, or maybe they do pizza, or have a kid's menu, or an early bird special, or maybe they have all of these, or some of these, or none. Unless you were exceptionally adventurous, you'd never ever stop there.
So what can be done? Honestly, I have no idea. Probably the only way to solve this would be to decide on overarching standards that this game adheres to across the board. But I would not want to be the guy who decides that for others, and I wouldn't want someone deciding that for me. Personally, I think the "hard-core" players-- the ones posting to these boards and trying to expand this game, especially on the East Coast-- should be trying to keep impressions to the lowest level where there's nothing that would bother a reasonably open-minded BF reenactor (as I agree with ssgjoe and LSSAH that they constitute our best hope for growth, and the people I know who've tried it and lost interest tended to complain of not enough immersion). On the other hand, Drac sees a different demo in Maryland and so shifts his standards down somewhat to respond to that, 2nd BAt has his VERY successful thing going on in the NW with very different standards, and NOWHERE should we create an environment of elitism (I think the NE events have been awesome about this, BTW, many total noobs up at Nate's field and at the promo event last spring were cheerfully and understandingly outfitted and brought into the game). On its face, we could just accept regional differences. The problem comes in that, in the East at least, the hobby is so small that it is demanding inter-regional travel: Maryland guys coming up to NJ, NJ guys coming up to NY, Michigan guys coming out everywhere (God bless ya!). Having significant regional variations in standards risks creating a tyranny either for or against the lowest standards. Take, for instance, Drac's loaner kits (and Drac, I am not criticizing here AT ALL, just pointing out real-world differences to make a point! It's all good!) He's OK with his loaner kits featuring obviously "off" pouches, plastic helmets, and anachronistic belts. That totally makes sense for him and his Maryland constituency, and that's 100% cool with me. But then what happens when we throw a game up here that we want to be a deeply immersive event, and he wants to come up and support the game? Our choices are to 1) Tell him loaner kits aren't welcome and alienate him; or 2) Reduce the quality of the event to accommodate the kits and alienate the people who want an immersive experience. In my eyes, both suck.
Again, I want to be clear that I'm not saying one approach to WW2 Airsoft is right or another is wrong. I have my opinions and the things I value in this hobby, others have equally valid reasons for seeing things somewhat differently (and sometimes vastly differently). Disagreement and different perspectives are part of life, and acknowledging them without making them a criticism of the other person is what maturity is all about. What I AM saying though, is that this lack of unanimity is a serious obstacle to growth in this hobby. We cannot have a bouquet of standards and expect buy-in from new players. And what really troubles me is that there may not be any way to really resolve it without causing bad feelings or driving dedicated players away. And that kind of collateral damage would be, for me, way worse than the problem itself. Honestly, I would rather this hobby fade away than to hurt or alienate a single one of the friends I've made through it. Perhaps there's a way to avoid both. I hope so, but I don't know what it is.
And I should add- I am speaking on this PURELY from a marketing/recruiting standpoint, not the intrinsic value of having a more homogenized hobby. One could also argue that having more different stuff that calls itself "WW2 Airsoft" actually helps bring in more diverse people, but I think that's a fallacy. And, personally, one of the things I like about this hobby is that so may people with such different takes on what WWII airsoft is get along so famously. In many ways our diversity is our strength. I just don't think it's helpful in growing the sport.
Sorry for the length of this, thanks for reading.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 12, 2015 21:38:22 GMT -5
Wonderfully well written post. I know you and I have vastly different perspective about what acceptable standards are but that doesn't for one second deminish my respect for you or reduce the value I associate with your opinion.
I have always felt that the establishment of standards and expectations falls on who has the energy, courage and initiative to host and promote an events. People who have never done so have no appreciation for the challenges, expense, frustrations or jubilation such an endeavor requires. Anyone willing to take it on has my respect admiration and support. In proceeding with their vision they have to weigh what will make their event successful for them and the bulk of their participants. Typically they are initially inspired by wanting to host an event that they themselves would want to attend. For most of us here that means encouraging as close to authentic as they can get while still insuring that the standards (minimum requirements) are not such a barrier to entry that significant impact on attendance is created.
Often those standards could easily by exceeded with loaner gear but when the standards appear too stringent people fail to register. At the current stage of our hobby we typically have more capacity for proper gear and to a lesser degree weapons than willing walk ons to fill them. I say promote the event as a WW2 themed event, have pictures and descripters showing what makes the event different than a typical airsoft (or blankfire event) and promote until you have 30% more enrolled participants than you can support. with normal attrition that should work out about right! I supply the highest quality gear and impressions I can muster and increasingly have my poor quality costume stuff as emergency fall back. There is always some level of disappointment for every participant and know going in this will be the case. For some it may be the impressions, the tactics, the gameplay, the camp life, the field of play, props organization, event flow...the list goes on and on. The lunacy is that unless you have skinny 20 somethings in great physical condition who have all been through significant Infantry training half of whom speak fluent German and a playing field where observed opposition is always in range, there will always be some level of suspension of belief. In my opinion it's the sponsors call to create a product people want to come to and participants upon hearing the expectation and plan can decide if they want to attend.
It is great (an in the drama filled environment of airsoft and reenacting) a pleasant fact that our community can discuss it with cordiality!
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 12, 2015 22:42:18 GMT -5
I definitely agree with you, Insterburger, on a lot of points here, and in a lot of other threads. I've been thinking too much about it recently because of it.
But don't worry! No worries on using me as an example or anything like that!
It is hard to decide on who we are trying to get and what way to do so is more "correct," but I definitely agree that we shouldn't try to alienate each other. Thats when elitism comes in and destroys hobbies! I see it all the time in airsoft where "milsimmers" will blast other players for not having milspec grade equipment (at least what they THINK that is), and that attitude just hurts the hobby and those who are on the receiving end definitely feels alienated.
It does raise questions and makes you wonder. I'm not looking for an actual answer to this, by the way. I'll be blunt, too. How is it that 2ndBat's games are highly successful with costume quality loaner kits?
Is it the lack of standards that draws people in? All the attendees that aren't loaned kit aren't annoyed with it to the point where they don't go.
Is it just because of his region?
Is it because of he is more concerned about gameplay, getting guys into the game, and tactics, rather than everyone showing off stitch-nazi level uniforms?
Again, these are all hypothetical questions, and not bashing him. I, by no means, saying we all need to do what 2ndBat does.
Maybe all of us are focusing too hard on taking in these "stragglers" from both BF and Airsofters. I don't know what else to say at that point though...
On the topic of having deeply immersive events...I think the solution is just keep it the high standards. It is simple. Because the way I see it, I still have my personal kit that I know is good to go. I can still attend and I could still very much offer up support with the things I have that reach the standard. MP40/STG pouches, Drillich and HBT tunics, extra personal kit, GUNS! etc etc. Then work it out with others who can loan out the high qual stuff and organize it like: I can bring A, B, C items, and who can bring X, Y, Z items.
To put it simply, I think we should just let regional "heads" do what they think is best for their areas, but expect nothing less than authentic kits from them when they attend the more immersive, unifying, drive out of one's way events.
In all honesty, its been a hard time trying to walk the middle line of "authenticity vs cost and logistics" with what I'm trying to set up. I've been actually getting confused on what I should do myself in terms of my loaner kits. Its like, I want to get games going down here in my area, but I don't have the means to put together all these highly authentic kits. I have some great ideas, at least I think I do, but lately I've questioned it, usually after the fact and its more like "questioning what I've done" or "should I continue it like this since I started this way, or just change up my, what I thought were, well laid out plans." Like in the cases of my covered plastic helms and E. German leather belts, and "captured generic leather pouches." These have been my plan from the start to get a decent base, and I still think I'm having great turnouts with this, but just because I'm proud of what I've done, doesn't mean I don't question it. "Should I stay my course?"
Again, this didn't come from your latest post, Insterburger. I've been like this the past few weeks, I do admit I feel bad for causing any stirs with what I'm trying to accomplish...
I 150% agree with 2ndBat, that its great that we can talk civil like this and not have it turn into some stupid internet flame war.
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Navy Doc
Private
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
Posts: 38
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Post by Navy Doc on Nov 13, 2015 12:00:55 GMT -5
All good points.
Sort of backtracking though, I think it would also be to our benefit to do more with the historical reenactment aspect of the hobby and making ourselves visible outside of airsoft games; case and point, this Saturday we're doing a walk-on airsoft game, and afterwards we're going to be sort of a living exhibit for the local armory's 100th anniversary. It would probably attract those more into the reenactment part of the hobby, and give us a chance to appeal to them and explain how our reenactments differ.
I'm also looking into challenge coins, pins or dogtags to have as commemorative souvenirs of games, and thinking of activities we could do before/during/after events to make it more immersive. I'm thinking seriously of investing in a telescoping flagpole and WW2-era flag so we can have morning and evening colors at the beginning and end of events.
Advertising ourselves is absolutely crucial; I've gotten into a lot of conversations with people (most of them total strangers) when I wear shirts/sweaters for my boxing gym, we should try to do the same with WW2AA. I very much want to see shirts, business cards and/or banners drawing attention to us when we attend events or even when we just walk onto regular airsoft games in our impressions.
I may not get started this weekend, but I've already started brainstorming how some of these things could look. If a banner and business cards come to fruition, I intend to put QR codes on them so people can immediately access the site via phone and give us a look. (That said, once again I think the site needs a facelift, and I'm not sure how compatible this site is with mobile)
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 13, 2015 16:30:34 GMT -5
When an event is scheduled promote the beegeebers out of it so a wide net is cast. Let local ROTC groups (both high school and colleges) know about it and post on local airsoft club forums. Let them know that gear, impressions and weapons are available at very inexpensive rental fees and if you get commitments from even a few members encourage a rival group to sign up for the belligerents team. EXAMPLE: " A group from the Seattle U ROTC are coming to serve as NCOs for the German team I wonder if we could get some participants from the U of W to fill the same role for the US?
If a cadre member at a ROTC group mentions your event or a driving officer at an Airsoft club gets behind your event you will get some walk ins. I typically charge $40.00 to $45.00 for the rental. Even with basic set ups it takes me six to 10 events to break even!
Fees actually help your event as it insures your participants are serious and truly interested. Have flyers with lots of great pictures, an event agenda and if possible a brief historical backdrop to create your setting. Post these at airsoft venues, surplus stores and any other logical place where your posters might be seen.
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Jerry-ADK
Private 1st Class
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Dec 16, 2015 9:32:45 GMT -5
So, while we are on this topic of how we can get more participation in WW2 airsoft I would like to add my observations and suggestions to this discussion. I truly love WW2 airsoft and very much enjoy the company of my fellow airsofters who participate in events with me. All of the people who I have met through WW2 airsoft are great and fun peeps, very knowledgeable and ready to help newcomers get started. We have a lot going for us in that regard. The areas where we can use more work are in publicity and in working toward doing at least one hardcore encampment event a year with high authenticity standards. In the North East for some inexplicable reason we have over the past five years seen a decrease in the number of players who show at events. We were having games of over 30 players for a time. I wasn’t around in the early days of East Coast WW2 airsoft so I don’t know what it was that they were doing different that we are not doing now. At some point, a rift occurred and a bunch of players migrated away to BF or vanished from the hobby entirely. Not sure if or how we will ever get any of them back so we have to look forward to our 2 potential sources of new players which are regular airsofters who are looking for something different and love history and blank fire reenactors who are not put off by using replica weapons or the looser authenticity standards WW2 airsoft tends to have. I do use our Facebook page to promote our events but as of yet, the following is under 300 and many I suppose are international or not living near the North East. So I don’t know how useful Facebook is for promoting events locally. I think that the way Facebook would work best for promotion for local events is for people who are going to the event actually respond that they are going to the event and share it with all of their friends. Other than that Facebook can get what we do out there nationally and worldwide but we need to post lots of pics and promote how great WW2 airsoft is. So please, if you haven’t already join the WW2AA Official site and use it. WW2AA Official I personally fall into the second category of WW2 airsofter as mentioned above as I have been a historical reenactor for many years before I ever played airsoft. This past spring I joined the IR914 a New England based Heer reenacting group partly in hope to try and court some of them into WW2 airsoft, as well as seeing all the armored vehicles, learn German commands and to burn some powder in my K98. I have found that some have tried airsoft in the past and are not opposed to it philosophically, which is good. And I don’t think we are too far off from creating the authentic environment that they would expect at a reenactment. All that would really take is for us to hide in our tents or cars all modern plastic bags and containers just as they do and police our camping areas for anachronistic items. I think holding at least one hardcore event a year where we strive for 100% authenticity is within reason for most of us who currently play WW2 airsoft here in the east. It would be a good way to attract BF reenactors and make our events even better. Finding a new site that is not a paintball field but is an attractive mixture of woods and field would be a nice environment for a full emersion event. And this I will be working on trying to pull together in the near future. The other option we have available is to run WW2 themed games at a popular airsoft/paintball field and try to win some of the regulars over to our side of the hobby. This is the current approach we have been taking. Near Albany we have found such a suitable field. It is a good location being that it is kind of central to the North East and not more than 4 hours from most places in New England. And, it already has a large amount of local modern airsofters who play there regularly. Currently Mig’s and Brownien are working on organizing WW2 games at the field. And we just had one there last week which was successful. I think that with a lot of effort in promotion we can get them to really take off. Holding at least 2-4 WW2 themed events there a year would be very helpful in creating the kind of momentum we need to show people that it is worth investing in a WW2 kit. Also, I would be interested in coming to a couple of run and guns dressed in my WW2 gear with some other guys to try recruiting and promoting for our hobby. Omego who is the organizer at Harrison Field in Maine also holds an airsoft event that is WW2 themed at his field. There are no authenticity standards for players but showing up at such an event by us in force next spring may also help to get more people interested in setting themselves up for WW2. The expensive cost of investing in a WW2 kit and weapon is a big deterrent for many who want to get into it, especially when they see that there is not many WW2 games happening. For the past three years it has been the same 3 guys who have been organizing games in my area. And over the past year we have not had many games. I think that if it is up to only a few guys putting things together they get burned out. A lot goes into organizing an event and I have a huge amount of respect for these guys who take the time to do it. And I agree with 2nd Bat that we need more Mavens and leaders in the hobby who are willing step up. Keeping up momentum is very important to the inertia. More of us need to fill the gaps when others get tired out to keep it going. When we lose our mojo, we lose old players and have less opportunities to recruit new ones. Not too many peeps are crazy enough to spend over $1000 on kit and only play once or twice a year. If we need more players we also need more events first. “Build it and they will come. “ I have been at awesome games with only 4 players on each side and had more fun than games I have been to with over 20 players. So there is a lot to be said for quality over quantity. We need to “brand” ourselves as something very different from both BF and modern airsoft because what we are doing is unique to both of those things although sharing similarities with them. So, in conclusion, more promotion, more exposure, more events put on by more people, and at least one to two high quality hardcore emersion style events with high authenticity standards a year would greatly help our hobby.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 16, 2015 22:27:14 GMT -5
Here, here!!!!
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Post by OMEGO on Dec 22, 2015 8:49:03 GMT -5
Also, I would be interested in coming to a couple of run and guns dressed in my WW2 gear with some other guys to try recruiting and promoting for our hobby. Omego who is the organizer at Harrison Field in Maine also holds an airsoft event that is WW2 themed at his field. There are no authenticity standards for players but showing up at such an event by us in force next spring may also help to get more people interested in setting themselves up for WW2. That would be spectacular! WW2 airsoft has been emerging here in Maine. In 2016, our big annual WW2-themed event is likely to take place a bit later in the season than usual—perhaps around August. We love to see WW2AA members at these events to raise the bar for our growing player base. Your impeccable impressions inspire interest! Coincidentally, just this past weekend at a local run-and-gun in Monmouth, I met a couple newer players who showed up wearing some German kit that they had acquired on their own:
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Post by slick63 on Dec 22, 2015 17:02:43 GMT -5
Just my personal observations from over in the UK. I`ve noticed a drop off in activity on the WW2 forum compared to say 5 or even 10 years ago. There have been quite a few game cancellations due to lack of players. This seems to be down to travel distance, cost of fuel, work commitments, or the general lack of money due to the recession. Petrol over here was close to the equivalent of $10 a gallon last year, and with games spread far and wide, some players were having to face a 600 mile round trip....expensive. Of course older players move on with family commitments, and younger players have to go through the recourse of getting a defence before they can even buy a gun over here. This means playing at open days so all their cash goes on modern kit. Even if they develop an interest in the ww2 side of things, they rarely have anyone with a similar interest nearby. One thing that seems to garner interest is a release of a big WW2 movie of which we`ve had little lately. On the crossover between reenacting and ww2 airsoft, I`ve seen people go from the airsoft side to reenacting, but very little if any the other way. Some of the old airsofters pop back over now and then but once they go the reenacting route it seems they are reluctant to come back. It should be remembered that a large part of reenacting involves static displays and short choreographed skirmishes in front of the general public, not exactly physically tasking. They are lucky if they have one private battle a year. Although the participants may look the same in appearance, the two hobbies are poles apart. A couple of years ago I did a small tabletop airsoft display at a local modelmaking show, displaying the kit, guns, info on local skirmish sites etc., the different themes (open day, ww2, Vietnam) and a laptop playing a few vids of game action. I had some good interest from members of the public, but there were ww2 reenactors present as well. Not one of them came to have a look at the display. When I approached them, one said 'airsoft isn`t real soldiering' to which the others nodded their agreement. Given that the bloke was in his forties, dressed as a fallschirmjager, but would have needed four chutes to support his weight if he ever jumped from a plane, it gave me a bit of a chuckle.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 22, 2015 21:58:08 GMT -5
Great observations one and all. Cancellations are hobby killers as they destroy momentum and really have a negative effect on community confidence. Once an event is scheduled if at all possible it should be held even if attendance is well below expectations.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Dec 22, 2015 22:56:58 GMT -5
From my time thus far with BF WW2 reenactors I get the sense that for some, WW2 airsoft presents a slight threat in that it may lure guys away. My unit commander had said as much. But I reassured him he really has nothing to fear seeing how we can hardly get 20 to go to a event. Some of the younger guys in my unit are interested in going to a airsoft game, and hopefully they will at some point as a few of them started with airsoft before they tried BF but got discouraged because there were no games or they didnt know how to find out about them. I also think that for many of the BF guys using replica guns is one more step in the direction of surrendering their gun rights that we are currently struggling to hold on to here in the states. A fair number of the BF guys are a bit hefty and would not do too well running around dodging incoming fire. They do reenacting mostly for the static displays, hanging out and drinking a lot, and the immersive atmosphere of a period encampment. All things I enjoy too. but I like the tactical aspect of airsoft better, something you can never really achieve with BF very well. My unit commander gets very frustrated how his well planned ambush that the Amis just walk into goes south because none of the Americans will take their hits. I just tell him, he ought to try airsoft, nothing more satisfying than to pelt your enemy with BB's and see them on the ground screaming for their momma's.
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Post by aldrich on Dec 23, 2015 16:03:06 GMT -5
I agree with your observation that some see airsoft as a threat. I think that one of the things that hurts the relationship between the airsoft and blankfire communities is that it is always the "one or the other" approach. In other words you can only do airsoft, or you can only do blankfire. This is the viewpoint I get most of the time from blankfire guys, but I have seen airsofters with this mentality as well. Many that I have talked to in the blankfire community seem to have this mental block that just because they come to an airsoft event means they therefore can't do blankfire anymore, or just "betrayed" their unit. I find both blankfire and airsoft to have their benefits and drawbacks, which is why we as a unit do both. I find that explaining and showing how airsoft can compliment blankfire reenacting is the way to go. Showing and explaining how airsoft can teach one how to take cover and other tactical skills goes a long way to opening the minds of blankfire enthusiasts to the idea of airsoft.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 23, 2015 16:50:46 GMT -5
Aldrich. Well said! The two hobbies are NOT mutually exclusive and we have quite a few local guys who do both. We have also had blankfire weapons and airsoft present at the same event which presents both challenges AND opportunities.
Folks who do both can speak intelligently about the strengths and shortcomings of each. As a combat veteran I much prefer airsoft but I know other combat veterans who greatly prefer blankfire. Both absolutely have their place if you want to create an emmersive appreciation for ground combat for conflicts within the last 100 years.
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Post by volkssturm on Jul 21, 2016 20:25:54 GMT -5
I'm just not seeing much interest around here anymore. All the young whippersnappers want to be SOCOM operators or Russian Spetsnaz or whatever. Maybe we need Hollywood to bring out another big mini-series like "Band of Brothers" or "The Pacific." I guess WWII is just ancient history to too many. Harrrrumph! "Back in my day, when you said 'The War,' you didn't have to ask 'Which one?'"
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Jul 22, 2016 5:12:06 GMT -5
I wouldn't really say that. However, and I kind of hate to say this, but I think we need is more WWII video games. I want to say there is a correlation and causation with between all the fake-operators in airsoft and all the modern day shooter games is apparent. Especially since a lot of these are legitimately kids, young adults, and college students. Target audiences for the type of games.
Well, I guess we could put this idea to the test this year, since we have Battlefield I coming out, maybe we will be people getting interested in WWI airsoft.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on Jul 23, 2016 18:23:29 GMT -5
Considering the weapons in BF1 that i have seen so far, it may as well be a ww2 games. Semi-autos galore, smgs and lmgs with bolt actions taking the back seat (They are there but given the option, I doubt people will use bolt actions over semi-autos for the most part).
Still no idea why they didn't make a ww2 game. We have been waiting for a proper ww2 battlefield since bf1943
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shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on Jul 23, 2016 19:23:05 GMT -5
Exactly. Battlefield 1 looks fun, but bears absolutely zero resemblance to the First World War.
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shutzefritz
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Post by shutzefritz on Jul 24, 2016 9:15:20 GMT -5
Root of the Solution;
I agree that dramatic authentic events, WWll themed video games and movies and all the other suggestions play a part in attracting new participants.
However the root of the problem / solution is why there is such a high attrition of those who discontinue and fall away. If we can retain more of those players and draw others by powerful positive attraction it would generate an increase in numbers, and the quality of enjoyment of our dedicated enthusiasts.
There is always a problematic equation of balancing available time and money with commitments to work family and other hobbies and interests. However, in my experience it is the camaraderie, respect, and esprit de corps that we bring to the sport and regard to others that makes this fun and keeps us coming back and has the opportunity to attract others.
Unfortunately there are those in our ranks who negatively drive dedicated seasoned players and new raw recruits away with chicken criticism and judgement.
Expressing an authenticity opinion as, "you don't know anything", besides being unqualified is a discouraging bullying.
If a when new recruit or dedicated member expresses a desire to attend an event without committing, and it is negatively met with "that is not good enough" it is the opposite of powerful positive attraction - discouraging bullying.
We do not have to agree with everyone else or settle for lesser authenticity or participation standards, but if when issues arise our members are slammed with negative criticism and unwarranted judgement it will both drive away both our best and promising new members from our ranks. When this bullying is done behind someone's back we have fallen from comraderie and esprit de corps to gossiping high school girls.
Bringing the respect and high regard for this sport to all of our dedicated and new members, as well as to those in the reenacting community who would detract us, is what is needed to attract and keep the best in our ranks. I firmly believe the winners should stick together!
Thank you! Shutze Fritz
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Post by hajduk on Aug 4, 2016 0:18:36 GMT -5
I've been saying it here and there, but I suppose here would be the best place:
I think that a great way to attract players would be with a consistent, yearly, national event. And not some 4-hour sh*ts n' giggles fest in the woods, a multi-day "immersion first" sort of event. If we can make something that looks fun and interesting, and promise that an identical event will occur the following year, people will come. One of the greatest barriers to new players is the immense cost associated with correct ww2 kit, and the general lack of events to use it at. If we give them just one game, a real good one, maybe they can justify the cost. Its not as good as constant smaller events spread across the country but at least it's something.
And I know how unorthodox it sounds, but perhaps it could be set in a fictional battle. Hear me out: Somewhere in South Central Europe Allied and Soviet forces link up to encircle remnants of SS/Wehrmacht that were trapped in between the two armies. This way you can have Western Allies, German, And Soviet impressions all in one game, and just use Volkstrum/Partizans/generic resistance to fill out the ranks. A little bit of everything so everyone interested in WWII airsoft has something to look forward too (except for the Pacific guys, unfortunately).
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Post by hunterj on May 4, 2018 10:26:58 GMT -5
I've started a field here in Easton, Kansas with 300+ acres with the goal to host 3 day, nonstop full immersion WWII Airsoft events. Our first event is June 1st - June 3rd. We're already getting registrations and would love if some of you WW2AA guys could make it out. Like hajduk said, a consistent event would be helpful. I am planning to host this event minimum 2 times a year. It will run nonstop without any breaks. This will be an All-Fronts event to see what impressions we have in the group. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Hope to see you there! Group Page: www.facebook.com/groups/WWIIAirsoftCentralUSA/ Registration: midwestairsoftreenactment.wordpress.com/registration/ Event Link: www.facebook.com/events/169593027071614/
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Post by hunterj on May 4, 2018 10:28:16 GMT -5
Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions!
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Post by volkssturm on Aug 22, 2018 23:21:49 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, how did that event go?
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Post by hunterj on Aug 31, 2018 18:27:24 GMT -5
@volkssturm I need to write up an AAR for it. Overall it was successful, we had a rough turnout. With around ~15 people. Quite a bit of last minute cancellations However it was the right people. I knew it was going to be a challenging, 3 day immersive event which a lot of people aren't up for. We fought all night both nights and camped out and ran patrols and missions throughout the days. There was a really rough storm and it rained over an inch, but we sat in our trenches and just got soaked. So overall it was the right group of people, and I set the tempo that I want for my events in the future.
I'll try and get a better AAR up at some point with the pictures. On the facebook page are a lot of the pictures from the event.
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Post by hunterj on Sept 16, 2018 16:15:15 GMT -5
@volkssturm
The event was a success, everyone had a good time and everyone agreed that it overall went smoothly. It was 3 days, with temperatures ranging in the 90's to low 100's. The heat was rough but it did not stop us. I had massive water tanks at both camps and both main camps were placed in forests with complete shade. We had some last minute cancellations, which is always a real pain. The teams were pretty uneven also, but both sides constantly moved and fought. We had OPORD's written by a retired Lt. Col. who teaches at a military college, so that way I wouldn't know what either side was doing. It definitely pushed us into the general vicinity of each other and put a lot of the decision making on the NCO's and such of the players, instead of being told exactly what to do by a higher power.
Not sure where to start, I have all of the AAR details written on a paper back at my farm, but now i'm at university so I can't read the specifics. We had 20ish players show up.
We had a large AAR at the end of the event where we all sat around and talked about things done well and things done poorly. Got a lot of pros at the amount of prep work for the event, regarding opords/water/campsites. Lots of pros on the field itself being so large and wilderness (~400 acres undeveloped). Pros on the fact that the event felt immersive. We had several active duty and several retired military and they all said that it was immersive and very milsim. The degree of authenticity was equivalent to that of Blankfire events, I was very strict on this since that is a large deterrent for Blankfire guys who often see Flaggrantly Wrong kits in WWII airsoft.
Cons were mostly things out of our control, the large amounts of cancellations, the heat, the bugs haha.
There was a massive storm friday night where it rained over an inch and the massive thunderstorms broke many trees on the field. So the next day was painfully humid, would've been perfect for a Nam game.
Going to have another one in January/February, the poll is currently up. This event is a great bridge for the WWII Airsoft and Blankfire Reenacting community. I myself do both and there are pros and cons to both events, the hardness and mutli-day aspects, the nonstop definitely appeals to the Blankfire guys. I will being going to Rockford WWII days this coming weekend and will advertise the event to some of the other blankfire groups out there. I've been working on reaching out to nearby WWII Groups as well, like Lewis's 2nd rangers and the Michigan guys, I think we can get something out of this. A large, multi day event a few times a year might get more people to come and stay, give them something to work towards to. However I realize the multi day nonstop aspect is a deterrent for some players who don't want that, but that's okay. I'm always open to suggestions and whatnot for my events. The facebook group is currently at ~400 members and I've noticed on several other airsoft boards that after the few events we are starting to be noticed and mentioned in other milsim/blankfire circles. So I just need to be consistent and maintain my levels of authenticity and work up a respectful event.
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Post by volkssturm on Sept 30, 2018 22:43:23 GMT -5
Sounds good. Wish I lived closer and was about 30 years younger. There doesn't seem to be anything happening in Northern California anymore.
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Post by hunterj on Oct 2, 2018 11:14:15 GMT -5
@volkssturm, sounds like you should attend in a Volkssturm impression then - you can still help defend the fatherland haha Here is a link to the next event, I posted it on a ww2aa thread: January 11-13. ww2aa.proboards.com/thread/12246/gothic-line-full-immersion-eventI really think consistent multi-day events like this will help. Gives people something to look forward to, and most WWII airsofters/reenactors seem to want the full immersion military simulation style events. The field is ~400 acres. I'm happy to answer any questions if anyone has any, i'll get to sharing this around. Hope to see some of you there!
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Post by norseman on Oct 31, 2018 13:37:17 GMT -5
Sounds good. Wish I lived closer and was about 30 years younger. There doesn't seem to be anything happening in Northern California anymore. Keep in mind the group in north Idaho. Much closer than Kansas. Its about an hour or so north of Spokane.
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Post by hunterj on Nov 1, 2018 21:00:56 GMT -5
norseman are you a part of that group? Good luck! I think another thing we (WWII Airsofters) need to do is try and work together, I know that in order to make my events happen on such a large scale and a large field is that I need to work with other WWII groups. I know we have coordinated with groups in Illinois, Texas, Missouri, louisiana and others who come from all over and work hard to make the 3 day long full immersion style events a reality. I have gotten in contact with guys on this forum who definitely were a large part in getting the whole WWII Airsoft movement started back in the day (@cpl mills 2nd rangers comes to mind) and guys such as 2nd Bat have messaged me and offered help and assistance any way needed. There certainly is not enough of us for us to divide the community. I do think a large, multi day event each year as something to look forward to or build to is a great way to keep peoples interest up in the hobby.
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Post by norseman on Nov 1, 2018 23:46:02 GMT -5
norseman are you a part of that group? Good luck! I think another thing we (WWII Airsofters) need to do is try and work together, I know that in order to make my events happen on such a large scale and a large field is that I need to work with other WWII groups. I know we have coordinated with groups in Illinois, Texas, Missouri, louisiana and others who come from all over and work hard to make the 3 day long full immersion style events a reality. I have gotten in contact with guys on this forum who definitely were a large part in getting the whole WWII Airsoft movement started back in the day (@cpl mills 2nd rangers comes to mind) and guys such as 2nd Bat have messaged me and offered help and assistance any way needed. There certainly is not enough of us for us to divide the community. I do think a large, multi day event each year as something to look forward to or build to is a great way to keep peoples interest up in the hobby. Im not trying to divide any group. I was simply offering a closer alternative, if Kansas proved to be too far away. Elias’s group is fairly large and they host events regularly. But they are some what lax on requirements, certainly not to reenactment standards. But they are having fun. Im friends with the leader of that group. But no..... I found WW2 airsoft to be much too mainstream for me and chose Cowboy Airsoft instead. Its a very tight cliche that we belong to of about 3 people nation wide I’ve tried selling it to the massive SASS community and I get a whole lot of backlash about teaching kids to point guns at each other. SASS is a timed target shooting sport.... so they are not even as up to speed as WW2 blank fire groups when it comes to airsoft. They really really do not get the concept, to put it nicely. And they like blackpowder smoke and .45 caliber lead bullets smashing into steel targets. “BB guns” do not really hold much appeal to them. Im with John that while booms and bangs are cool. Airsoft using a real projectile against a real opponent is something that nothing else even remotely compares to. Drawing like minded people together from around the nation is tough. But John did it with his Recondo Namsoft series. Widly popular and Im proud to say I was a graduate of his school. Only advice I can give you is get a professional photographer/Videographer in to showcase your events. And props and military vehicles and more props. When John was a member of PSAC they did an event called Operation Gallant Saber. Which was held in a fictious African country called Mugambi. The attention to detail was amazing. They had a “Radio Free Mugambi” station you could tune to. And they had hidden speakers around the field that played African animal sounds! They also had 3rd force villagers protesting American forces entering into the capital. Very immersive! Anyhow best of luck with your events!
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