Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 8, 2015 16:05:14 GMT -5
Just got finished making up the straps. I decided to make the top half of the strap with the straps from the E. German Canteen cover, and the bottom half of the strap homemade with my marine vinyl and the roller buckle from same cover. Pretty much, I tried to use as much of the original cover possible to save on supplies and costs. Front sides: There aren't quite finished, I need to get some button snaps pliers and snaps to add to the covers, then these will be finished. Rear sides: I'm pretty sure, I made the clasp too high on these, but shouldn't be that big of a distraction. Speaking of clasps, this is where I got mine. I took them off these E. German packs. I got 6 for 50 bucks on ebay, all with suspenders and tornister straps. A lot of good hardware and storage bags with that. I haven't gotten around to painting two of these cups, but again, these are just stopgaps until I purchase proper cups. The straps will work with them, too. And when I get the tool and supplies to add the buttons, these will be finished.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 8, 2015 18:05:36 GMT -5
Wow! Those look great as loaner set ups.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 8, 2015 18:14:19 GMT -5
Yeah Drac, I totally agree that you can't really forego cups on the East German ones if you use those, the plastic caps are just too wrong. You should really just spring for cups with those, as the East German cups really don't look right even at a distance. With all the work you've done with the covers and the straps, it's well worth the extra effort and expense IMHO, as otherwise they just look like DDR canteens with wool covers, and with proper cups they will look very nice.
Has anyone looked into wholesale lots from China? I would think all of the stateside distributors are getting their stuff from the same few importers who get their stuff from the same one or two factories, there's got to be a way to get these things cheaper in quantity.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 8, 2015 19:21:51 GMT -5
Well, I dabbed into the wholesale lots from China once about trying to get a quote on a line of British P37 Battle Dresses, buuuuut the few I've tried never got back to me.
But, like you said, I couldn't agree more, that it wouldn't make sense just to stop here. And in all honesty, the $9-$10 bucks for the canteen cups will make each canteen cost no more than $20.
Which, while it might still be pricey for loaner kits, but thats the nature of the b e a s t with German Canteens.
Side note: I've started on getting two more pairs of gamaschen goings.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 8, 2015 19:46:28 GMT -5
As my Grandma used to say, "If you're going to jump over the dog, you might as well jump over his tail."
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Post by schmitz on Nov 9, 2015 5:53:59 GMT -5
I'm not so sure about soldiers not having canteens - it was probably a real rarity. But yea, a lot didn't use cups or lost or discarded them. landser.com has really cheap cups, both aluminum and bakelite, so that might be an option. The canteens look good! and, they're a hell of a lot better than people using modern bottles. Plus, I think the quality of your loner gear may do a lot to get people into the hobby. I stated canteen cups, not canteens. When I was stating they didn't carry canteen cups, I should have phrased it that they didn't carry them on their canteens and dropped the cups in the breadbag to prevent clanking noises between the cup and the gas mask can. Ah, sorry dude! misread that.
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Post by ssgjoe on Nov 9, 2015 9:05:46 GMT -5
No worries man!
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 11, 2015 0:14:25 GMT -5
So, as I said I was going to, I started on some pairs of Gamaschen. Decided to change up my process a bit, in attempt to make these look better! Not necessarily more "historic correct" with full leather bits and apple-green canvas, though. While my first three pairs looked good, and proud of them, but with anything else home made, there is always room for improvement! One thing that I didn't like seeing on my first run of three, was that the edges with jagged, not straight and neat, with pen marks still visible. I don't think anyone would really minded these or even cared once the word "homemade" came up, however, as the guy who makes them, I felt that was one area that needed to be improved on and something that someone with over 10 years of sewing should have been able to do right in the first place. Either way, my new slightly different method definitely improves the look of these when held up close! One pair of my first run: Note the uneven and not-straight edges and pen marks. With the newer method, I successfully avoided most that (top one is repro model): Still need to get my stitching closer to the edges! And I think the overall shape is now more spot on (to my repro at least) because of this!: I know the homemade one LOOKS bigger, but thats just the camera angle plus the fact that my repro isn't laying completely flat. The process does need to be tweaked a tad more, but it coming down to just being more precise with my cutting and stitch work. Again, I don't think the wearers of these would really care or even notice the pen marks and such, but something something eyes of the beholder (and not the Dungeons and Dragons sort of Beholder monster).
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 13, 2015 14:02:27 GMT -5
Your early efforts are more than fine for my purposes. The gaiters are a critical piece of kit along with US leggings as my walk ins almost never have proper footwear and these do a fabulous job of diminishing that infidelity and enhancing the flavor of the events.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 22, 2015 14:40:47 GMT -5
Just finished my first run of my E. German canteen mods. Button snaps and proper canteen cup and all. The five with my proper repro on the right: Close up on the side detail: Due to limitations on what sizes of snaps that is available and since the E. German canteen cover pattern was made for only three buttons, I was only able to get four buttons in there. On a breadbag along with a proper repro: I really like how these turned out! I think it would be better if the E. German canteens bulged out as much as the war time ones, or had a rounded bottom, would make them these better looking, but for the cost and time put into this, and the end result, I'm not mad by any means. Final cost break down: E. German canteen = $6 Canteen cup repro = $10 Button snaps = about $2 Marine Vinyl = too little to even calculate. Total= $18 each! Stay tuned, I might have more stuff by the end of the day!
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Post by insterburger on Nov 22, 2015 21:00:08 GMT -5
Those look beautiful, Drac! Great work!
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 23, 2015 8:23:48 GMT -5
Thanks!
Awhile ago, after making a few Drillich tunics, I decided to revisit my idea of modding E. German Tunics. Now, I know with my Drillich (and soon HBT) tunics, and it only really costs a few more dollars to do a Drillich/HBT tunic, there really isn't much need to go out and do up a E. German tunic, but as it stands, I have 3 E. German Tunics in my closet I can mock up. Actually, some of this will help future, from-scratch tunics. With making a few from scratch, I gained a whole new perspective about the E. German Tunics and what needs to be done to them. Obviously won't result in museum grade, but definitely passable for loaner purposes and look rather good.
After the canteens last night, I got to it, I don't have picture, and the one is not finished yet. The idea was to do a thorough mock up, giving it features and more iconic parts of the war time tunics. Ideally, a M36.
All that I'm doing/planning on doing. No particular order besides removing the lining first: -Remove lining and shoulder padding (some of the EG tunics have shoulder padding, some don't) -Replace the buttons with repro buttons -Use dark green and white wool felt to make a "M36" style collar and infantry shoulder boards (also, adding the loops and buttons) -Make a split back -Remove piping from cuffs and then add fabric to make the war time style tunic button cuffs
Unfortunately, there is only so much one can do with how the E. German tunics are made. For example, the split back won't be sewn up like a war time one, but you'll clearly see that the back is split. The pockets, I can't do much to the pockets, outside from replacing buttons. I'll be stuck with their shape and placement, so, I think thats going to be the weakest point of the mod. I have heavy gray fabric (only matches in color), that I'm going add to the cuffs.
I know this seems like a lot of work, but its just a bunch of rather small jobs. I probably would have gotten most of this finished last night if I wasn't figuring out how to make the shoulderboards from scratch. But now that I have that down, things should go much faster. I'll try to get at least a WIP picture of it up today. Not sure if I'll have time to work on it today.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 23, 2015 12:25:22 GMT -5
Keep us posted! Its interesting that when one takes a Foreign language the most obvious thing that always sticks is the improved understanding of your own native language. Following these threads on revisions of non WW2 tunics into pseudo war tunics has greatly improved my understanding of the actual uniform details.
The more I learn the more I realize we are sick, anal, overly obsessed nut jobs who need to get a life! It is a desease! It can be fatal by the way. My wife came out to the garage, saw the scattered mess and nearly killed me!
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 23, 2015 17:56:04 GMT -5
Will do! I won't much more progress tonight, but I'll be sure to upload a pic of what I do have.
I neglected to mention here. Even though I'm removing the lining of the tunics, I've been trying to find various mouse, stone, and dark gray button-up shirts made out of softer/more comfy materials to place into my loaner kits as service shirts. This adds a tad bit more authenticity to how the loaner uniforms are worn, and prevent the wool from getting itchy (also, you don't see that they are full button-ups and not the pull over/button-up mix found on war time ones. So, no distraction).
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 23, 2015 22:00:41 GMT -5
Just a few pics from where I'm at. I still gotta get to modding the cuffs and replacing (and adding) the buttons. Close up of collar area with the homemade shoulderboards with a repro mid war shoulderboard for reference: The shoulderboards came out a tad thinner and smaller, but I think its only noticeable when compared to a good one. Note on the zig-zag stitch: My machine only has two different stitches that zig-zag, one of which is a button hole stitch. I tried the button hole stitch on the first one (the one thats mocked mounted), and its more dense than what this repro shows, and because of that, there is too many stitch holes in the wool, which I don't like. It probably doesn't matter since the cotton piece's stitch line secures it, but I prefer doing the bigger of the two zig-zag stitches. Which is what I have shown here. And I know my button holes still suck and they probably won't get better than the standard straight button hole that my machine can handle. And of course some screw ups here and there with sewing because these are the first ones I've made with an actual repro shoulderboard as reference (more on that later). Shot of the "back slit": Though, looking at it through a picture like this is making me think of adding extra fabric to split to make it more correct looking. I feel the contrast and distinction between the gray tunic and dark green collar makes the tunic look more "natural," despite the colors being off by a few shades (gray needs to be more green and dark green needs to be darker). I think it really needs to be mocked up into a M36. Being mocked up into a M40 wouldn't just wouldn't look right because the repro mid or late war shoulderboards aren't this gray and it will stick out. None of the wool felt on the standard market is like this gray either. For something like this, I'm more concerned about the more "iconic" details of the war-time tunic installed onto the tunic. I think every little small thing adds to it, or rather, every small thing subtracts from the distraction that this is an incorrect base tunic. And, I think I can get to where it only looks a few color shades off with gear on and ten foot rule. We'll see though. This would of course get basic insignia, but that will happen we figure that out (different thread, haha). It might be a busy week, so hopefully I can share the final results in time for Thanksgiving.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 23, 2015 22:08:01 GMT -5
It's funny, I'm sure I came off as a stitch-Nazi in some of the recent threads on your loaner gear, but when it comes to East German tunics, you're much more the stickler than I am. I have one that is my bottom-of-the-barrel last ditch loaner tunic. It was in rough shape from extensive field use by the NVA, which helps its cause somewhat, but all I did was cut off the piping, slapped on some insignia, and (with creative masking) painted the existing buttons feldgrau in situ. Far from right, but usable in an emergency. I guess my reasoning was that it'll never be right, so why sink too much into it.
Whatever you do, never under any circumstances convert a dark collar East German tunic. The light collar ones from the 80's are truly a dime a dozen, but the dark collar ones are typically from the 60's to the early 70's, and constitute legitimate and valuable history of their own that deserves preservation.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 23, 2015 22:19:47 GMT -5
You're right, haha. I think its because since I made tunics from scratch, I have a lot of the knowledge of tunics. I know things to look out for and I know what needs to be done to them. Is it a set in stone way? No of course not. I also think its because I know whats wrong with them, it wouldn't feel right just ignoring what makes it wrong and trying my best to "correct" it. There isn't naivete or "just started making tunics" status with this (not saying I'm an expert either, but you get what I'm trying to say).
Oh, I know! I've seen the black collar ones on eBay go upwards of near $200, tunic alone! I'm not messing with those! If I got one randomly in a trade or what not, I'm keeping it the way it is! I was just searching for the aforementioned dime a dozens ones from 80's.
I also got this one weird one, too. Its like an HBT E. German tunic, made by Sturm, not the right weave of HBT, but its roughly the same weight and its like that field grey spray paint I got from Hessen Antique and showed off in another thread. I've read that Sturm did weird stuff, though. I just don't know what to make of it, and because of that, what to do with it.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 23, 2015 23:28:11 GMT -5
I actually have an extensive DDR collection (who knew?) and have at least some knowledge-- that used to be my primary area of interest. Is the tunic in question made by Sturm, or re-tagged by them? They have been known to (for some unknown reason) make replicas of fairly low-value East German field uniform items, so it could be a Sturm repop, but it could also be a legit NVA Drillich uniform-- they certainly existed and were in common use from the late 50's up through at least the 1970's. The earliest ones have significant collector value, the later ones not so much. If you post some pics, both of the garment itself and any markings on the inside, I might be able to tell you more about it.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 24, 2015 4:44:55 GMT -5
Okay, so, it wasn't as dark as I remembered it, but I got pics. No idea if its Sturm made or they slapped their name on it. The tunic: Close up of collar area sorry it came out blurry. But note the top button is a standard button and not a tunic button: Tag. Weird that its now English and its sewn onto the size tag: Cuffs are distinct in nature, but more like war-time ones: Only other marking I found. On the inside, behind the top left pocket: "MfS 1/11" is all I can make out, there is some more after the numbers that I can't make out. Possible time and place of manufacture? Only other interesting thing to note, that on the insides, roughly 6 inches below the markings, there is a white webbing loop that extends from button hole back piece. Its not on the outside, and I think its too short (and sits too low) to be used for some sort of decoration mounting. If it turns out to be a rare item, I won't do a damned thing to it, but if its a "dime a dozen" item, I'll probably just swap out the buttons and maybe make a back slit.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 24, 2015 8:45:11 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this. That is actually a Roman numeral I and a U, not 1/11. That is the production date code. The "MfS" is the agency it was made for (NVA would be army, MdI would be ministry of the interior). This is probably real, given the way the Sturm label is attached, and is actually a slightly interesting piece: It was made in the first quarter of 1978 (I/U) for the Ministry for State Security (MfS is short for Ministerium für Staatsicherheit), the dreaded secret state police. Mainly Stasi stuff is identical to regular army issue, just marked differently. I have a dress tunic marked for the MfS, and visor hats and such are not uncommon.
Stasi uniform pieces aren't ultra-rare (it was a huge agency and the East Germans overproduced everything), but it does have an interesting background and the MfS marking (if legit) makes it a bit more desirable than just an ordinary NVA Drillich. At the very least it deserves a better fate than conversion to an ersatz WWII tunic. If it were me, I would not touch it and hold on to it as it is for what it is. If you're not interested in that, bring it up to Aachen and I'll have a look at it. If it's legit, I may be interested to purchase it just to file away with the other DDR stuff I have (if the price is right).
At any rate, thanks for sharing.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Nov 24, 2015 9:02:56 GMT -5
No problem, and thank you for the input on it! A lot of good info! I'll bring it to Aachen then and let you take a look at it. If you like it, I'll probably just say "name your price" or make some sort of fair trade for it.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 24, 2015 9:42:07 GMT -5
Sounds good. Looking forward to a little Flohmarkt activity in the German camp!
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 25, 2015 21:20:20 GMT -5
Same here, Inster. Last time I did that in the field I traded some Skittles away for a fudge brownie that was all broken up in the packaging! Alright, so I got this E. German tunic to M36 mock up finished: I'm really iffy on the turnout of the cuffs and should have used grey thread, but other than that, I think this turned out well enough! Definitely screams M36. Now that I know how to do homemade shoulderboards, its one more skill I have down to use for my eventual HBT tunics.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 26, 2015 13:56:00 GMT -5
Your shoulderboards really came out nice. Vastly superior to my carft shop approximations,
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 26, 2015 22:16:45 GMT -5
The shoulderboards were one of the main things I strove to do good with. Since, I'll have to be making them by scratch for my HBT tunics.
Luckily, these didn't cost much at all. The material is usually $10/yd, and these barely use any of it, especially the white piping. These yards go a looooong way. The tan is stuff I found left over from earlier projects, and got plenty of scrap remaining of it.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 27, 2015 16:02:24 GMT -5
That DDR conversion is not downright awful, which is saying a whole lot (in fact, it's saying you've worked a minor miracle) considering that it's a DDR conversion and thus will always have major shortcomings. I'd say you've done about as much with it as anyone could, and that tunic as a loaner would not bother me at all. Good work.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 28, 2015 0:16:31 GMT -5
Thanks! Stuff like that is good to hear!
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 28, 2015 1:43:35 GMT -5
With proper web gear, grit, sweat and grime it would be the rare individual that would pick out the difference and heres the interesting thing. I absolutely doubt the soldiers of the day would think for a minute that anything was amiss.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 28, 2015 10:59:39 GMT -5
With proper web gear, grit, sweat and grime it would be the rare individual that would pick out the difference and heres the interesting thing. I absolutely doubt the soldiers of the day would think for a minute that anything was amiss. Well, except for the 3/4 sleeves with the extension. I think anyone who put that tunic on would wonder, "what the #$$!%! is up with these sleeves?" Those cuffs are the Achilles heel of East German conversions-- they are highly visible, they are obviously incorrect, and there's scant little that can be done about them. Drac's done about as good a job hiding them as is possible, the problem is that they can't be hidden. The odd part is, the East German regime was notoriously poor and always trying to simplify and cheapen their production, yet they held on to those piped cuffs up until the very end. Seems like an unnecessary bit of bourgeois frou-frou for the National People's Army, but there you go. I guess VEB Ernst Thälmann Papsel- und Manschettenwerke Karl-Marx-Stadt needed to be kept afloat for the good of the workers and peasants.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 28, 2015 13:04:17 GMT -5
I'll try better on the sleeves (and in general) on the next one, but Inster is right, fundamentally, the cuffs are the weakest point and there isn't much more I can do to do them to make them better. Besides using grey thread and try to do a cleaner stitch job and of lining up, which still won't help much, really.
The other weak point is the pockets, they are an odd tear drop shape and I haven't had two E. German tunics' pockets and their position and angles are the same. On top of not being shaped like the war-time ones. Fortunately with correct buttons and under field gear it shouldn't be too distracting.
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