Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 6, 2015 10:38:57 GMT -5
Noted on the belt buckle. I'll add that to my list of things I need for my personal impression.
On the topic of shade, Hessen's listing said it was matched to a wartime helmet, maybe the helmet they had was on the darker side of grey-green?
But it was probably one of those "different shades from different factories and different batches" things. Out of the three repro helms I own, the repro straight from Hessen was much lighter than this, another one I got from a trade had was fairly dark too, the third repro needed a new paint job, gave it Hessen paint. The 2nd and 3rd ones, while dark, don't match each other.
Then I got a proper repro mess kit, and that has an entirely different shade of gray-green. haha.
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Post by ssgjoe on Nov 6, 2015 14:18:05 GMT -5
You can try doing the resin mold on the DDR belt buckle. But I would try it with one, see how it comes out, and decide if it's worth continuing. I personally feel the painted DDR buckle would work satisfactorily? Especially when it's on a belt with a bunch of field gear on it. But I can't be sure unless I see it. Would you be able to post photos of a loaner kit with the painted buckle?
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 6, 2015 14:44:10 GMT -5
Here we go!
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Post by insterburger on Nov 6, 2015 15:22:07 GMT -5
To my eye, that doesn't pass the "10 ft. rule." Probably no the 20 ft. rule either. And my eyes aren't that great.
Curse the DDR for their bold and highly legible emblem! At least the BRD has an eagle!
Which speaking of, it's worth keeping an eye out for West German leather belts. They're usually not super-cheap, but sometimes can be had for very little money. When you can score them, they're well worth it-- slightly wider than most repro buckles, but can be made to work, and the mounting and hooking system is 100% compatible with WWII stuff, so very easy to outfit with a proper buckle. Also better quality than most repops. And while ideally the postwar buckles should be replaced, it's close enough to the Weimar one that I think it would easily fly, at least short term or in a pinch.
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Post by ssgjoe on Nov 6, 2015 17:37:29 GMT -5
Well I think with the other gear he's using and the fact that these are loaner kits, the 10 foot rule for people who know their stuff has already been forfeited. He is just trying to achieve the look. However if the mold idea works well, go for it.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 6, 2015 20:52:05 GMT -5
I never said these were the best for WWII impressions, but I'll stand that these are a pretty good compromise for loaner kits.
Well, when you find them cheap enough that is.....
Luckily, Hessen restocked on them and in various sizes, next pay I'm going to order a crap ton and never worry about having missing my chances to get these again.
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Post by ssgjoe on Nov 8, 2015 16:41:19 GMT -5
For a loaner kit, I feel like DDR belts work just fine. But for a personal kit that is something I would most definitely not approve of. They work for your loaner kits, and thats what matters
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Post by insterburger on Nov 9, 2015 8:58:53 GMT -5
For a loaner kit, I feel like DDR belts work just fine. But for a personal kit that is something I would most definitely not approve of. They work for your loaner kits, and thats what matters If it were a one off, keep-it-in-the-bottom-of-the-bin-just-in-case, I'd tend to agree. But if you're building half a dozen loaner kits around these, you're sending the message that being obviously inauthentic is all right. In the NE we often have half or more of the German forces in loaner kits, so you could easily have these outnumber legit buckles, which would be a massive disconnect from the immersion for many (including myself). I know one argument is "when everyone is running around the woods, you won't notice." But as anyone who's played this game knows, we spend a great deal of time NOT running around the woods-- talking strategy, building emplacements, etc. And there we will notice. We don't need every last detail to be stitch-Nazi perfect-- in fact, doing so would work against our interests. But there is a line where being overly lax with authenticity works against our interests too, and I think belt buckles that are obviously anachronistic at a glance fit that category. Again, it's one guy's opinion, and I know for instance 2nd Bat's games are something exceptional that because of the sheer numbers involved has to write its own rules. I'm speaking on what's going on in the NE, where if we're going to grow, we need to be able to have credibility with at least the more "liberal" of the BF guys while still being able to court the more serious "casual" airsofters. To, me, DDR buckles will lose many of the former.
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Post by ssgjoe on Nov 9, 2015 17:05:27 GMT -5
Maybe you could purchase a bunch of cheap IMA WWII belt buckles and somehow attach a hook to the East German belt so you can attach WWII buckles. You're pretty handy Dracul, I'm sure you'd be able to find a way to do that. That way you're spending a few bucks on a belt, and ten bucks on a buckle
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Post by insterburger on Nov 9, 2015 17:20:05 GMT -5
Maybe you could purchase a bunch of cheap IMA WWII belt buckles and somehow attach a hook to the East German belt so you can attach WWII buckles. You're pretty handy Dracul, I'm sure you'd be able to find a way to do that. That way you're spending a few bucks on a belt, and ten bucks on a buckle I was going to experiment with exactly that, Joe. I have a few East German belts I can spare from the DDR collection, I may try this out and report back, or at least start playing with the idea. Although I wonder if in the long run a mould of the device and attaching a casting of that over the DDR Staatswappen wouldn't prove more economical. I suppose if it's just a few units, the buckles are the cheaper way to go. But then when you figure low end repro belts can be had in the $15 range, it makes less sense. I dunno.
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Post by ssgjoe on Nov 9, 2015 17:24:12 GMT -5
Maybe you could purchase a bunch of cheap IMA WWII belt buckles and somehow attach a hook to the East German belt so you can attach WWII buckles. You're pretty handy Dracul, I'm sure you'd be able to find a way to do that. That way you're spending a few bucks on a belt, and ten bucks on a buckle I was going to experiment with exactly that, Joe. I have a few East German belts I can spare from the DDR collection, I may try this out and report back, or at least start playing with the idea. Although I wonder if in the long run a mould of the device and attaching a casting of that over the DDR Staatswappen wouldn't prove more economical. I suppose if it's just a few units, the buckles are the cheaper way to go. But then when you figure low end repro belts can be had in the $15 range, it makes less sense. I dunno. I feel the resin mold would not look that good to be honest. It would result in some weirdly thick belt buckles I believe, and it'd take a lot of work for one buckle. Attaching a hook to East German belts would be less work and I feel would look better. I think our best option however is to to a prototype of both ideas, and see how both look and consider the time as money put into each idea.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 9, 2015 18:20:30 GMT -5
Yeah, I see your point. You'd just need some sheet metal, a dremel, a drill, and a riveter and I think it could be done. Cutting and shaping the hook would be pretty straightforward. Then you'd need to buy the buckle though.
But then it comes back to the question: If a low end repop belt can be had in the $15 range if you know where to look, why spend $12 plus shipping on an East German one that will need reworking and a replacement buckle? The quality is not even all that great on the leather.
You have me convinced the way to go on this is to just pony up for cheap repros. For the extra money the fidelity is really worth it, even on loaner kits.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 9, 2015 18:24:35 GMT -5
And then I saw this (the wide ones, not the pants ones): German Armed Forces Belt$11.50 for 36", $15 for longer ones. These are smaller sizes and the shipping cost is silly, but I wonder if you bought these in quantity if it would bring the per-item shipping down enough to make sense. The buckles are still wrong, but are VERY similar to a Weimar one (the chief difference basically being the eagle's surround says "Einigkeit / Recht / Freiheit" instead of "Gott Mit Uns"), and IMHO these could certainly pass well enough for loaner kits, and be easily switched out for WWII-style repros when desired. And the belts themselves are of better quality than pretty much any repop I've seen.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 9, 2015 19:13:14 GMT -5
But thats like over 30 for shipping. Otherwise amazing price.
I think if the resin mold was just for the emblem itself, it wouldn't be overly thick. TBH, too thick of a belt buckle with a decent looking emblem would be more accurate than a flat out E. German belt. If anyone could produce a lot of those for cheap, I'd be down to buy a line.
In terms of working on a E. German belt to make it use a WWII buckle, I'm afraid I don't have anything up my sleeve, because it would need hardware and tools I don't have. Maybe riveting a hook of some sort to the end of the belt? All the hook needs to be is a curved slab of metal, but thats something I can't really do (apartment life).
This discussion got interesting....
I still can't deny that E. German leather belts are going to be my preferred belt for loaner kits. Maybe I'm too logistical, even to a fault. However, that doesn't say I can't do the thing of sniping good deals on proper repro belts when they come up on all them FB marketplaces, and slowly replace them.
EDIT: ACTUALLY!!! Instead of resin molds, how about vacuum forming "cases" for belt buckles! Think like a protective cell phone case. A war time design buckle can be the base to heat and vacuum form a piece of thermoplastic over it. The heat and vacuum with conform a piece of thermoplastic to the mold. When cooled, just pop them off the war time one and adhere over an E. German one. At that point, it won't be that much thicker and it would cover front, bottom, and top of the buckle completely.
Its what a lot of Stormtrooper armor makers use, and there are plenty of tutorials out there for it, and you don't need to make the mold or use too much thermoplastic either, should be much cheaper than resin molding, too!
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Post by schmitz on Nov 10, 2015 7:17:50 GMT -5
And then I saw this (the wide ones, not the pants ones): German Armed Forces Belt$11.50 for 36", $15 for longer ones. These are smaller sizes and the shipping cost is silly, but I wonder if you bought these in quantity if it would bring the per-item shipping down enough to make sense. The buckles are still wrong, but are VERY similar to a Weimar one (the chief difference basically being the eagle's surround says "Einigkeit / Recht / Freiheit" instead of "Gott Mit Uns"), and IMHO these could certainly pass well enough for loaner kits, and be easily switched out for WWII-style repros when desired. And the belts themselves are of better quality than pretty much any repop I've seen. I originally tried to use a Bundeswehr buckle, but it turns out that the buckle and belt are actually bigger than the wehrmacht ones. So, if you ever decide to get a wehrmacht buckle, you'll have to get a new belt.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 10, 2015 8:15:18 GMT -5
Actually, I have a WW2-style buckle on a BW belt right now. By bending the "wings" on a repro very slightly out (easily done and not noticeable) it fits fine, and while some frogs or equipment loops are slightly more snug on it, that's kind of a good thing. The only way you'd know at a glance which of my belts is the BW one is that it's better quality than the rest.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 13, 2015 21:01:36 GMT -5
Drac-- Check these out: Kel's closeout DAK beltsWith an IMA buckle you're looking at around $20 a set. Much worth the money compared to the rising cost of DDR leather. And these would be (IMHO) more than fine for an SS impression-- the only difference I can see is the wording: Kel's closeout "Gau Essen" bucklePersonally I think this combo would be 100 times better than a DDR belt even for a Heer loaner kit-- not quite right, but at least not as obviously anachronistic as the Workers' and Peasants' Staatswappen. And at $15 all in (before shipping), very similarly priced.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 13, 2015 23:23:31 GMT -5
Thanks, I just ordered four of the DAK belts and the SS buckles from them (along with 5 canteen cups). I know I'm doing Heer, but a flat $15 for a full belt is too good to pass up, even if it is SS. This will have to do for now then. Seeing these belt hooks here: www.kelsmilitary.com/GermanFieldGearHardware/GUA-036.html is making me wonder if anyone ever tried making their own belts from strips of leather from like Tandy's leather or wherever else.
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Post by ssgjoe on Nov 15, 2015 1:20:41 GMT -5
I have heard of people crafting their own leather gear. I've thought about doing it but never got around to it
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 16, 2015 17:27:34 GMT -5
Drac,
I went onto Spoonflower site and searched their images for camo. Wow! Lots and lots of choices. It's interesting that for splinter pattern or Marsh and Tan there appear to be numerous choices each with subtle variations. Which choice did you go with and how did you specify? Or do you simply click on the image provided and select a fabric and number of yards? How many helmets did you figure you could cover with two yards?
Any idea how much fabric would be needed for a simple smock? How about a zelt?
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 16, 2015 18:10:40 GMT -5
I went with, what I guess was, the most popular one: www.spoonflower.com/fabric/1262420It was also the one that popped up from just Google searching "WWII German Splinter Fabric By The Yard" or something similar. I just clicked on what popped up, chose the cheapest fabric they had, the basic cotton, and went from there. 2 yards should get you 7 helm covers, but you will have to be really careful and precise when tracing the pattern and cutting them out to get the most out of the fabric and have enough to at least be able to frankenstein the 7th one. For smocks, my educated guess would say you would need at most 3 yards if you the basic cotton. Basic cotton prints out at about 40in x 36in per yard, and most tunics use about 2, standard 59in x 36in yards. Also, gotta factor in that a Smock will take up more fabric than a tunic would. You might have some left over, though. Zelts, in all honesty, would be cheaper to just get actual repros. You would want them in one of their canvas, either Linen Cotton or Eco, which ranges from $27 and $32 a yard respectively. Even then, I don't know if their canvases hold any water repelling capability (never handled theirs). Then, you would have to install all of the hardware and neck hole. Which there is a crap ton of metal dish buttons and oversized grommets, to which I never seen a grommet setting tool for something that big on the public market. Luckily, a single yard should cover the fabric needed for a zelt, but even at 59in x 36in, you might have some seams on the finished item. And you should have a decent amount of extra left to use for another one.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 16, 2015 19:28:13 GMT -5
Drac, I would assume 2ndBat is looking for Zelts not to be 100% accurate, but to be worn over his less-than-stitch-Nazi tunics to hide their infidelities. With belts worn over them I would think he could probably dispense entirely with buttons, grommets, etc., provided they had an appropriate head slit (wow, that term sounds more tawdry than it is).
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 16, 2015 23:07:18 GMT -5
Insterburger is indeed correct. Before I had considered smocks my plan was to go with Zelts. Given the apparent amount of fabric needed at $20.00 a yard I can get decent repo smocks fully finished for about the same amount.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 17, 2015 8:42:36 GMT -5
BTW 2nd Bat, I saw these some time ago and maybe didn't mention them on the boards... Swiss Army Work JacketsI have one I got somewhere. They're a heavy denim with sewn-on epaulets, chest pockets, and built-in belt loops. They certainly wouldn't do at all for stitch-Nazi impressions, but for your events they might work very well as stand-ins for HBT tunics. With collar devices and a breast eagle it certainly would suggest "German tunic." and the price sure is right.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 17, 2015 9:55:39 GMT -5
Thats not bad at all! If I wasn't already doing my thing with the HBT/Drillich tunics, I'd get a bunch of these three packs and cannibalize one for material to make lower pockets on the other ones and maybe better looking shoulderboards. These do skirt out, have metal buttons, pockets and flap look like the late-war square pockets.
Not the best, like Insterburger said, but I think these would work great for your purposes, and since its denim, these can easily be your actual tunics, and no need to hide them under zelts and smocks.
Maybe these might dye well, too, to give them more of that dark forest green HBT color.
Hell, more I talk about it, the more I want these myself.... haha
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 17, 2015 14:17:51 GMT -5
Wow what a find! Perfect for my purposes and actually less that the average cost of the base thrift shop acquisitions that I have thus far been using. On mine I have to add lower pockets, buttons and epaulets and remove the sleave cuff. If these are indeed cotton denim they should accept dye although as I understand it the blue grey might be right for Luffwaffe ground troops.
I have already put together a dozen of my pseudo tunics but at this price I am going to double my costume department! Thanks for the heads up!
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 17, 2015 14:25:48 GMT -5
I just noticed they are in Waldorf Maryland! Interesting Drac.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Nov 17, 2015 14:59:30 GMT -5
Might have to head down there and grab some myself! haha.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 17, 2015 16:17:41 GMT -5
If nothing else just to take a look at them! I noticed as I attempted to order they no longer have a choice of sizes which is a pitty. One of the things I need is an assortment of sizes but what they have left are Larges. Smalls seem to be the cuse of what I usually find and if I have a size issue bigger can work in a pinch where too small simply does not!
My thinking is that these are cheap enough that I can literally cut some up to create my lower pockets. If these take a dye I think I can end up with a decent "at a glance" impression which under a zekt or smock will suit my purposes just fine. Insignia and covered in web gear alone would suit my needs and from the look of it come out better than my current approach. Wish Id found these two months ago!
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Dracul
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Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 17, 2015 16:35:13 GMT -5
In all honesty, you really wouldn't need to cover these up with smock/zelt. Especially if they do take dye (hopefully they do, since its Swiss made, and not Eastern Bloc mass produced with mystery material made)! But with out dye, a few sewing mods to these will still make them look pretty good for the price.
Lower pockets, remade shoulder boards, split in the back, and change up the cuffs.
Might sound like a lot of work, but thats the price for cheap. Also, since they only have larges, tailoring them into smaller sizes is simple!
If these work out, I'd say stick with your smocks/zelt idea for lesser tunics, and keep these as is after mods.
I might be calling up these guys right now and schedule an appointment with them soon! Like this weekend, and I'll report back. Good find there, Inster!
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