2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 20, 2016 14:27:01 GMT -5
There has to be a way to attach (or better still build into our weapons) both a muzzle flash and more authentic gunshot sound for airsoft. I know some of the tracer elements do create a highly visible muzzle flash along with illuminating tracer BBs and if you haven't experienced their effect you are missing out. Unfortunately they are typically made to look like sound suppressors so not visually correct for most all of our weapons from the 40s!
With the super bright LED lights available to bicyclists that draw very little power one would think they could be unobtrusively adapted somehow? Perhaps built into the stock band or gas assembly? As for sound I am not proposing anything ear splitting or even close to the actual volume of gunfire but rather something perhaps two to three times louder that the Woodpecker tapping sound an Airsoft gun currently makes.
In a perfect world these audible reports could mirror the sound of the replica it is attached or built into. An American 30.06 round for example sounds very different than a 9mm or .45 ACP. Decible wise the sound should be low enough that ear protection isn't required but loud enough that at 300 feet away you won't mistake it for anything but "distant" gunfire. Since our contact ranges are abbreviated the scaled down reports would actually tie in nicely. It seems with the effectiveness of micro speakers and precise PDF files perhaps tiny speakers mounted in magazines handguards, stocks or gas assemblies the technology seems to be there to accomplish this. It would greatly enhance our type of airsoft events in my opinion.
Most of our weapons are AEGs so the power source is already there. Thoughts anyone? Any electronics gurus in our midst? Obviously as with all things, cost is a factor but it seems to be an accessory that could find widespread enough demand that sales could support economy of scale production requirements to support low cost. I would think with a cost below $50.00 it would sell?
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 20, 2016 15:24:57 GMT -5
A quick Google search turns up a few simulators that are impressive. c Bang and BLTech out of New Zealand as well as some simple cone tips but these seem only appropriate for modern simulations. Still it shows that I am not the only that thinks it's worthwhile.
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Post by scvngr on Mar 21, 2016 1:36:20 GMT -5
Those two bits of kit are just propane jets that get electrically sparked. The BLTech BOSS is essentially dead: they expect a $600US price tag even if it gets picked up by a large scale manufacture/distributor. The Marui Next Gen/Recoil Shock (And the clones from BOLT) guns are the best as far as electric blow back but you'll never confuse them for a gas gun, let alone a real gun. Then there's the VSR with "realistic gun sound" if you plug the headphones into it..... The 'old' Hop Up Tracer Unit (HUTU) is externally unobtrusive but also wouldn't be very visible (sans tracer bbs). Although larger guns can fit more gizmos inside like this MG42 with muzzle flash and barrel smoke (from a model train) www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbsGnbNGAGY&feature=youtu.be
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Post by volkssturm on Mar 21, 2016 16:51:24 GMT -5
I found some sites which have free sound effects including a selection of gun shots. Here's a couple. soundbible.com/tags-gun.html www.freespecialeffects.co.uk/pages/weapons.htmlThe next question is, what kind of device could you modify to download one to and then playback. I'm so far out of date I've never even had an MP4 player. Also found some sited about building sound generators.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 21, 2016 20:04:46 GMT -5
The muzzle flash seems as simple as a bright LED light like the bikes have. (More than enough signature to represent muzzle flash). That part seems easy and tiny enough to set up. The sound simulator is my big obstacle especially how to create something small and integrated while still generating decent volume.
The muzzle cones do work and are noticeably louder (especially on the receiving end) but are not the effect I am seeking. Years ago I heard someone using an aluminum tappet plate that generated a louder thwack (intimidating as all get out) but again not what I am talking about.
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shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on Mar 21, 2016 21:30:00 GMT -5
Polishing the inside of the muzzle would help the light reflect and make a larger flash as well. As for sound, perhaps something could be mounted in the gas cylinder in weapons like the Garand and BAR? I think decibel-wise they should be towards the upper limit of what is safe without ear protection.
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Post by hardslack on Mar 21, 2016 22:06:22 GMT -5
Incentive Design's Muzzle flash generator ( LINK) is pretty impressive, especially combined with GBB's. However, it is not unobtrusive. A similar, yet much simpler, idea is presented here, complete with basic wiring diagram, if coupled with currently available mini, high intensity, LED's in orange, red, yellow, or a combo, it could probably fit in flash hider/barrels of some WW2 replicas. Sound is tougher. I suppose the place to start would be a proof of concept using some dollar store noisemaker gun, or even a grenade. I think to really do it someone could use micro computer's like raspberry PI or something could fit in the full stocks of most rifles. Not that familiar with them, but the DIY movement is crazy about them and they are used for all kinds of stuff. This like, DIY milsim lazertag group could be a good starting point. They have sound effects. I remember vaguely reading about some lazertag system where you could program in all your ammo capacity, load the proper firing sound, etc. For me, just thinking through this, at a certain point, it starts to feel detached from the essence. Something just feels wrong picturing an airsoft rifle with a little speaker mounted in the stock...
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 22, 2016 2:21:10 GMT -5
With all that blankfire lacks with regard to feeling impacts (around and on you) or deciphering immediately who specifically was targeted the sound and fury of blankfire is very good at creating an immersive atmosphere. A more authentic (albeit much quieter) report and a muzzle flash would be huge. The hope of course is that the speaker would blend in as discretely as possible.
40 years ago there were Hasbro toy rifles that made a cool gunshot sound when the trigger was pulled and I know the technology has gotten way better than that. The Laser millsim hobby might be a good one to draw ideas from.
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Post by insterburger on Mar 31, 2016 20:45:06 GMT -5
I'm picturing a report produced with a speaker system... there could be several ways to go about it:
1) Best way-- but hardest-- would be build it into the gun, as discussed above. By cannibalizing one of the modern high-output compact device (i.e. a Jawbone) you could get respectable volume. One would have to rig an entirely separate electrical system-- meaning its own switch and battery, not to mention the playback device. Switching could be done via a small push-button switch built into the trigger guard or placed internally. The playback platform, speaker and extra battery would be harder to locate, depending on the gun. With know-how, it could be done... though the visuals might be hard to effectively conceal, as hardslack says.
2) The same system could be actuated on the gun, but unobtrusively mounted on the belt with a springy cable attaching the two-- similar to the gas feed system Nate uses on his 98k. For the shooter, the sound coming out of a USGI GP ammo bag or German gas mask can instead of the rifle could be disconcerting, but for the opponents, the sound of the report would be very immersive, I think, and in a combat situation with a lot of guys shooting all at once, I think it would really add more than it would take away. At least this way you could use a bigger speaker and battery to drive it, thus getting a louder report.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 1, 2016 11:02:11 GMT -5
Perhaps some of my Dummy guns could be test beds for trying different things. The full on rifles seem to have more space for subtle insertion of necessary hardware to create what I am looking for.
For the outdoor laser tag systems It was cool to see the reports and flash ceased upon emptying a magazine until mags were changed and they had limits on ammo. The weapons of course looked Goofy. The super simple LED flash linked to the motor is exactly what I was talking about. Naturally to be adopted it would have to be pretty universal within gameplay as it certainly announces your location....hmmm sort of like a real firearm! Sound is the buggaboo to this concept.
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Post by scvngr on Apr 1, 2016 15:06:16 GMT -5
The panicked police at 0:45 really sell this
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 1, 2016 16:49:41 GMT -5
I had an M14 version of that very toy! (Also by Marx ). The speaker instead of in the butt stock was in the magazine. Mattel introduced a version that was one to one scale (albeit a bit disproportionate) of the M16. It was pretty cool although by that time I was humping the boonies for real. The actual M16 took on the nickname of the "Matty Mattel special" and probably due to the toy was incorrectly rumored to have been built by the toy company.
Obviously if this was possible in the 60s something current surely could be done and even better!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 14, 2016 16:17:53 GMT -5
So I went by an electronics store that sells everything imaginable and then some. When I finally got the attention of a geeky electrical engineer type guy who had a number of recommendations with widely varied costs. He is launching me on a relatively inexpensive journey to try. He agreed that the muzzle flash will be very easy and with modern LEDs very very bright. Costs with be nominal (even initially). The audible report is more challenging and some trial and error will be called for. To start he set me up with about $12.00 in componentry. This includes a means to record whatever sound I want and provides up to 20 seconds of space. It also includes an activation switch (which eventually could be tied to the trigger). In addition I have a battery connection set to use a tiny 9 volt battery and a small 1 1/2 inch circumference speaker which will probably NOT be adequate for my needs although he said I might be surprised.
Initially I am thinking of setting it for use with a crew served machine gun as this will provide more room to work with and will best take advantage of the 20 seconds of sound recording. Who knows where this will lead?
No real monetary expenditures thus far so no real risk. Expect very little but hope for the best!
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Post by insterburger on Apr 14, 2016 19:43:34 GMT -5
Keep us posted, my friend!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 14, 2016 22:43:19 GMT -5
I got the components all soldered together and will select the desired sound effect. I have 20 seconds to work with so I am thinking three four or five second MG bursts? Ultimately if this works different sounds could be selected for different weapons. The German MGs and MP40 sounded very different than our 30 Cal and Thompson.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 24, 2016 20:08:37 GMT -5
Here are the components assembled. The speaker is about half again bigger than the size of a silver dollar. The white button is pressed to record the desired sound up to 20 seconds while the grey button is the on off which can be pressed repeatedly. You can also see the nine volt battery plug in and tiny speaker. Once I have sourced an appropriate sound effect I will give it a shot. Hopefully it's placement within the weapon can be discrete while using the housing to further bolster the tiny speaker.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 29, 2016 23:21:06 GMT -5
I chose an excellent series of short and long bursts from an MG42 and recorded them holding the Mike a few inches from my computer speakers with the volume plenty loud enough to replicate the effect I was seeking.
When I pressed the play button you can make out what I recorded (sort of) but certainly not at the kind of clarity or volume I was hoping for. I suspect these components are designed for novelty voice recording like you use in stuffed bears.
Back to the drawing board!
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Post by aldrich on Apr 30, 2016 0:08:10 GMT -5
I do quite a bit of model railroading, and many of the sound decoders use speakers like these to replicate engine sounds. While these speakers look bigger than the ones we use, I do not think they will produce enough sound to really get anywhere close to the real thing, much less anything that will carry too far. Still, I could be wrong and am interested to see how this turns out.
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Post by insterburger on Apr 30, 2016 5:46:14 GMT -5
Aldrich, I think you get to the root of the problem when you mention carry distance. All of these small speakers are going t be designed for indoor applications, and the difference in how sound carries inside and outside is vast. Add to this the distances involved and the speaker will have to be LOUD.
It is an uphill battle, but I think it can be done. Though I'm starting to suspect a built-in speaker in the stock may not be the solution, and a self-contained unit may work better. If you did a unit in, say, a German gas mask can or a US general purpose ammo bag, it could include a large speaker, and a powerful amp and battery source to drive it. This would necessitate connecting to the trigger by way of a wire, which would be a bit awkward but could still work.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 30, 2016 17:16:00 GMT -5
I suspect you are right that an external apparatus is needed for the effect I am seeking. For me the wiring and overall hassle of such a set up defeats my intent. If it can't be descretdly installed within the weapon I really have no interest. I have some 2 inch JBL disc speakers that up to the task but even these tiny speakers are too obtrusive for most weapons. Unless this system was installed on a high percentage of participants weapons the impact on furthering emmersion just wouldn't be there.
For now at least I'm going to say.."oh well."
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Post by insterburger on May 1, 2016 12:09:06 GMT -5
Unfortunately I think you are correct in your assessment. It was certainly worth a try, and provides food for thought for future efforts.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 1, 2016 13:58:37 GMT -5
Bingo! Not much invested dollar or time wise and while it turned out to be a dead end it was still a fun journey and scratches off the.."I wonder what's down that road?" Question.
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