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Post by volkssturm on Aug 28, 2019 16:05:06 GMT -5
Well, some captured T-34's converted to recovery vehicles got there. Mark Felton Productions has a great Youtube channel covering often obscure topics, like German "beutepanzers" ( captured or "booty" tanks) that made it to the West. www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5QcWWB8hwM
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Sept 5, 2019 0:23:39 GMT -5
Always fascinating stuff. I just purchased an excellent book by Zaloga called PATTON vs the Panzers covering the large tankon tank clashes in the Lorraine where virtually equal sized armored forces fought in a series of meeting engagements. Mostly 3rd Armored division M4s and M5s along with M10 and M18 TDs against the hastily thrown together Panzer Brigades witb about 1/3rd Panthers 1/3rd MKIVs and Stugs. On paper the better armor and more powerful guns of the German vehicles should have prevailed but the disciplined and well trained US and French tankers kicked ass and took names. The battle of Arracourt was one of four battles in the Lorraine area in Sept of 44. Air power played a roll but no where near as significant as most accounts indicate. Interestingly the 3rd Armored division had almost exclusively the 75mm gun with only 20 76mm guns. Creighton Abrams was a stud!
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Post by volkssturm on Sept 5, 2019 16:13:25 GMT -5
It seems like the role of the fighter bombers is being reassessed by historians. Not that they weren't effective but in what effect they had. It appears they actually destroyed relatively few panzers, but they did wreak havoc on German movements by forcing them off the roads and wore down the crews psychologically, causing them to abandon tanks that could have been repaired or recovered. An attack by Typhoons or P-47's firing rockets was pretty impressive, even if they didn't hit anything. Similarly, I just recently read that the Stukas attacking the French around Sedan in 1940 actually inflicted very few casualties, but the experience of being attacked by them caused the French troops, mostly third rate reserves, to grossly overestimate their effectiveness and panic.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Sept 8, 2019 14:17:31 GMT -5
This is the prevailing thought via contemporary research. Many vehicles previously believed to be destroyed by aircraft were in fact already taken out or mechanically abandoned. The impact on supply and rail transport was more significant and as mentioned the phsychological effect has to be factored in. The mechanical unreliability of German armor was even worse than previously recognized as German records showed vehicles "on hand" until completely destroyed or abandoned and completely unrecoverable. Thus tanks that didn't run or were awaiting repairs (which in the case of Panthers) might be 58% of the units total assigned vehicles! I think 62% actually functional was the highest reliability they ever achieved. In addition their side armor was vulnerable at typical combat ranges so it's reputation far exceeded the fragility. The Sherman tank keeps looking better and better and given the strategic requirements its capabilities against Infantry and its reliability meant it was pretty close to the perfect tank for the allies. The 4 Panzer brigades thrown against Pattons 4th Armored division looked very omminous on paper but were decimated in the course of 5 or 6 days of fighting. Only Pattons lack of fuel kept it from becoming a rout and then pursuit and exploitation probably all the way to Berlin.
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Post by volkssturm on Sept 8, 2019 21:15:21 GMT -5
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Sept 9, 2019 1:30:27 GMT -5
The Germans threw commanders with almost entirely Eastern front experience manned by relatively untrained tankers who were given no time to work together prior to their attacks. The Panzer brigades lacked recon elements and had little artillery, virtually no air support and half their grenadiers lacked armored half tracks (About a third of them did) while the others rode trucks or climbed onto the tanks. Most of the trucks were converted to run on coal or firewood! Radios were fairly unavailable for the Germans which were a critical element for their Blitzkrieg tactics. The result were roughly 5 to 1 losses in tanks and armored fighting vehicles. Most of the vehicles they lost were less than 2 months old. While most of the US tanks had crossed Europe having landed in Normandy or come up from the Southern Beaches.
A German tank was lucky if it could run 200 miles without major repairs while the Sherman and M5s typically travelled 2500 miles without major repairs. The high state of training for the US tankers was amazing and really paid off in the Lorraine and in the Ardennes.
Hitler was a real Douche and the best weapon we had. If those 600 German tanks had not been squandered in the Arracourt battles and were instead assigned to the Panzer Divisions who knew how to use them the war would have dragged on several more months and the Russians would have takedn much more of Europe than they did.
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