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Post by volkssturm on Oct 6, 2019 20:51:38 GMT -5
I've been working my way through a 9 hour YouTube documentary on "Operation Crusader" in North Africa, Nov. 1941. This still picture came up at one point. Probably a stock picture of British troops in the Western Desert, may or may not have been taken during Crusader. What's interesting is that the first two guys have SMLE's, while the third guy has what can only be a Pattern 14 Enfield (officially Rifle No.3 MK1 in 1926). The P14's were pulled out of storage after Dunkirk and issued to replace rifles lost in France. Mostly they were issued to rear echelon support troops and to the Home Guard. How one got to North Africa is a puzzlement. Troops heading to combat zones would have been issued SMLEs. The only combat use of the P14 in WWII was as a sniper rifle, for which it would have been fitted with a telescopic sight, which this one doesn't have.
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Post by aj czarkowski on Oct 10, 2019 20:51:14 GMT -5
Good catch! I didn't think there were a lot of them to begin with even in World War I - the main rifle was still the SMLE and I don't think there were a whole lot of Pattern 14's in the first place. You'd think the English would've issued WWI SMLE's before P14's.
Maybe these are rear echelon support groups? Although it sure doesn't look like it.
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Post by volkssturm on Oct 11, 2019 0:12:36 GMT -5
Wikipedia says there were 1.2 million produced. Most of them were made on contract by Winchester, Remington and Eddystone (a subsidiary of Remington), since the British had their hands full producing SMLE's. They still had a substantial number in storage when WWII broke out. My theory is that some of the early reinforcements sent to the Middle East may have been equipped with P14's after Dunkirk and by an oversight didn't swap them for SMLE's when they shipped out. Or it may have come out with a support unit and this guy happened to prefer the P14 and managed to acquire one. They were considered by many to be more accurate than the SMLE, being designed for long range shooting.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 4, 2019 12:49:14 GMT -5
The photo is an excellent example of my admonition to reenactors and historians to refrain from the words "always" or "never". In conflicts the scale of WW2 based on sheer numbers alone there were happenstance and anomallys that makes such statements false and typically there is a photo somewhere that will embarrass the statement. One of my father's favorite expressions which dates from the depression was "strictly from hunger" which became a common military expression among American GIs. It meant in desperate times you make do. Good eye spotting the anomally.
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Post by volkssturm on Jun 19, 2021 21:56:54 GMT -5
Well, the plot thickens. I was watching the latest installment of the Youtube channel series "World War II," (Very good serries, btw). www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqraIGY58pEA picture comes up of some British troops in North Africa. And they're carrying what appear to be Pattern 14's by the outline of the muzzle. They're certainly not SMLE's or No. 4's. So it would appear that Pattern 14's got around more than you'd expect. The only other alternative would be Lend Lease Model 1917's, bit that seems very unlikely given the different ammunition. Something to note is that these guys aren't wearing the P37 ammunition pouches that line infantry would have, which suggests a posed photograph using a group of support troops.
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Post by aj czarkowski on Jun 20, 2021 18:51:01 GMT -5
I guess there were a lot more Pattern 14's out there than is documented. Pretty cool.
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Post by 2ndbat2 on Jun 22, 2021 0:21:32 GMT -5
Posed PR shots were common for all Armies if I had to put money on it I'd say Volks guess is spot on.
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