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Post by speirs on Jul 11, 2007 8:41:36 GMT -5
just wandering how the AGM MP40's performance is in comparison to a stock TM thompson, ie range and accuracy, also is the standard tanaka kar 98k capable of shooting under 500fps? i know the g-version is adjustable but hard to come by?
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Jul 11, 2007 9:48:09 GMT -5
just wandering how the AGM MP40's performance is in comparison to a stock TM thompson, ie range and accuracy, also is the standard tanaka kar 98k capable of shooting under 500fps? i know the g-version is adjustable but hard to come by? If you do some work on the G-Box the AGM MP-40 will perform well against the TM Thompson. A Stock AGM MP-40 does not compare well to the TM Thompson as far as range, FPS, and accuracy.
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Post by 17 SS Allshaus on Jul 11, 2007 10:36:22 GMT -5
You will probably be able to shoot a standard Tanaka Kar98k at under 500fps with HFC134a gas. As for green gas, I'm not sure on that.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Jul 11, 2007 10:37:34 GMT -5
I disagree on 2 of those, range and FPS. Stock it is a higher FPS (little over 300FPS on mine) and the range is on par with most of the stock TM AEG's I have shot. Accuracy could be better but I have still racked up some kills with mine.
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Post by therifleman on Jul 11, 2007 12:54:16 GMT -5
Thats a tough call. I would say their both equal in some ways. The FPS on the MP40 seems to be higher if not the same as the Thompson. Accuracy dwindles at long range with the MP40 though.
But the CYMA Thompson I think out guns them both. I had it clocked in at around 340-355 FPS with .2s.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jul 11, 2007 15:24:03 GMT -5
My AGM MP-40s both shoot at 260 to 270 FPS with normal Airsoft Elite 20 Gram BBs. My TM Thompson shoots at 278 so very comparable. The Hop up is better as is the barrel in the Thompson so it shoots somewhat straighter. I still haven't received my CYMA Thompson from Kappowe but I had a change to handle and fire the non trade marked version which shot a surprising 352 right out of the box. I wasn't able to fire it at range to see how the hop up is or the straighness of the shots but the FPS is quite impressive.
The shop is messing around with refining the performance on a AGM MP-40 for use in one of my 30 Cals which is all set up for it but unless I can greatly improve the Hop up and FPS isn't worth the effort.
I've always felt that the stock TM Thompson and AGM MP-40 were fine just as they are for use in a WW2 skirmish as a sub machine gun frankly should have limitations relative to a rifle or MG.
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TommyGunner
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Post by TommyGunner on Jul 11, 2007 17:10:53 GMT -5
Ill tell ya what, stock SMGs should be enforced I used the Springfield for the Anzio event and took on guys with gas guns, Spring rifles and AEGs and never once felt that I was compramised becuase of my rate of fire. Mainly becuase i have gotten so fast on the bolt and can hit anyone out of range of there weapons, (except for Franz and Otto whos Kar98s are perfect matches for the Springfield in range and acuracy) By the way the Springfield was the only gun that at no point during the weekedn was effected by the sand, never once misfed or malfuctioned, those new internals you send me were a god send.
TommyGunner
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jul 12, 2007 0:09:31 GMT -5
It's fun sometimes to play with the limitations presented by a bolt action rifle and I honestly wish people got away from their obsession for upgraded guns unless something about their heft or length would justify it. When I have played with the bolt action Springfields I make I do fine with them. The finality of a bolt driven rifle is just cool somehow. Because I make a concious effort to make my rounds count and think about when and where to place shots I typically do quite well.
Glad to hear you're still pleased with your Springfield.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Jul 12, 2007 6:29:19 GMT -5
It's fun sometimes to play with the limitations presented by a bolt action rifle and I honestly wish people got away from their obsession for upgraded guns unless something about their heft or length would justify it. When I have played with the bolt action Springfields I make I do fine with them. The finality of a bolt driven rifle is just cool somehow. Because I make a concious effort to make my rounds count and think about when and where to place shots I typically do quite well. Glad to hear you're still pleased with your Springfield. Yeah, You guys are both right. I love the K-98 and after playing with AEG's i would never give up my bolt action gun.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jul 12, 2007 14:03:05 GMT -5
I like the feel of big, heavy, long rifles. When doing WW2 airsoft it just seems appropriate that one has something long to point. I guess that's why I like my Garands and the Springfield.
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TommyGunner
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Post by TommyGunner on Jul 12, 2007 16:58:02 GMT -5
Are you kidding 2ndbat, the Springfield is the only long range sniper rifle in the allies arsinal, and the most accurate. While I still do intend to create my own Springfield this one has a firm place as my Sniper rifle and a mainstay my armory (more so than my M1928).
In short I am still very pleased with its marvolous performance.
TommyGunner
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Ersatzjack
Corporal
"That silly Franz... he thinks we are winning."
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Post by Ersatzjack on Jul 12, 2007 19:02:52 GMT -5
The topic here is a comparison between the MP-40 and the Thompson. But it's fun to hear that bolt actions are still fun. I played Anzio with the MP-40 to cover my brother with his rifle. That works the best. A long range rifle supported by a SMG. It worked decent enough. The main difference however doesn't have anything to do with FPS or accuracy but with the fact that the AGM doesn't offer a hi-cap mag. Their performance versus the TM Thompson is comparable but the high cap really tilts the advantage to the Thompson. End of story. I'd like to see low caps enforced. But I don't think it is a deal killer. The two guns are well suited right now to play off against one another and once AGM starts making the G43 and MP44 things will even out. ;D
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Post by CharleyNovember on Jul 12, 2007 19:19:10 GMT -5
You can make your own hicaps.....I know it costs extra to do so I like midcaps a good 90-110 rounder with be perfect.
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Post by 17 SS Allshaus on Jul 12, 2007 19:42:29 GMT -5
I certainly hope that midcap AGM MP40 mags are released soon for the people who are less mechanically inclined than a lot of people on this board (i.e. me). It's tough to go toe-to-toe with a Thompson gunner when he's got a 200+ round highcap and you're limited to 50 rounds a magazine. I like the idea of enforcing midcaps at an event- it makes it a little more realistic and less on "holding down the trigger". I know Otto had to cover me while I reloaded at the past event a few times, and it's a cool little practice that heightens the experience, even though the risk of getting lit up while you're fumbling for a fresh mag is increased.
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TommyGunner
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Post by TommyGunner on Jul 13, 2007 1:03:17 GMT -5
At the Anzio event not only was it the performance debue of the Springfield but it also was the first true field test of the Drum mag and my 20rnd mags. I equiped Davidson with my M1928 and he used a mag bag with my 10 20rnd mags once he got off the beach, while he was on the beach though he used the Drum mag as strictly in the role of squad support. I asked him if he liked the 20rnd mags and he said yeah, or (super low caps) as my modern airsofter friends refered to them, and he said they did not put him at any disadvangtage and he simply used the Thompson in 3 shot controlled bursts, and kept watch on his ammo before he went around a corner to engage.
Especially with Thompsons I belive highly in the 60rnd mag (or if you can make the 20rnd mags like I did) Thompsons should not be allowed on the field with highcaps anylonger simply becuase there are so many of them, and the ONE Thompson with a highcap allowed should act as a squad MG or support gunner like my M1928 with the Drum mag. The reall cap rule with Thompsons can even things out with the MP-40 till they get some mags with a larger capacity.
In short I belive that the Thomposn with a 20rnd mag is on exactly the same level as an AGM Mp-40 with a 50rnd mag, while the MP-40 may not have the range and accuarcy of the Thompson, it would have larger ammo capacity when compared to the 20rnd Thompson mag thus giving it the slight edge if not making it even.
TommyGunner
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Post by Capt. Zak on Jul 29, 2007 12:46:41 GMT -5
By the way the Springfield was the only gun that at no point during the weekedn was effected by the sand, never once misfed or malfuctioned, those new internals you send me were a god send. TommyGunner You mean the only allied gun right? The Germans were sand free the whole event and our weapons were working great. Well except for my TOP MP40...but that had nothing to do with the sand. ;D
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Post by jedburgh on Aug 19, 2007 11:12:28 GMT -5
I've heard good things about the AGM MP40. All metal for one.
There is a dearth of HMGs in Airsoft in general. It would be nice to get a Ma Deuce that didn't cost 10 years salary.
Stock guns reek. Upgrade if you can, but if you can't then I suppose you're stuck.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Aug 21, 2007 23:22:18 GMT -5
The later arriving MP-40 shoot considerably harder out of the box then the first shipment and are chrono'ing at 330 FPs or so which puts them considerably harder shooting then the Marui Thompson and on par with the Chinese knock offs. Still they are not as precise in terms of hop up or barrle tolerances so a bit more erratic in terms of accuracy.
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jaeger
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Post by jaeger on Aug 23, 2007 9:57:02 GMT -5
A mid or high cap for the MP40 would be greatly appreciated here ! Nick
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Post by sniper98 on Oct 13, 2007 14:05:54 GMT -5
The AGM mp40 is a really good gun. I got mine wile i was at an airsoft game. It gets its job done. My brother has had the TM thompson for two years and it has never broken. Overall I think the TM thompson is the best.
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Post by ukkolzi on Oct 13, 2007 15:47:57 GMT -5
Why do you want high cap mags for the SMGs? It gives them a HUGE advantage over, well, almost any other weapon. Here in Finland everyone is satisfied with the standard (40-60bb) magazines for WW2 games. Come on, what's the point if you don't even have to change magazines?
The AGM MP40 is almost perfect SMG for WW2 games: it's overall finish is rough, it shoots hard enough and is inaccurate enough. The TM Thompson on the other hand is maybe even too good in terms of accuracy & range! It would be so much more fun if long range shots would be left for rifles. In my books, it's OK for SMGs to have decent muzzle velocities, but their effective range should be limited. Turning the hop-up to zero is not the answer. They should be just much more inaccurate, so you wouldn't want to waste precious ammo shooting someone too far away.
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YankeeDiv26
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on Oct 13, 2007 17:22:06 GMT -5
I agree with what ukkolzi says. smg's in airsoft are way, way, way, way,way too dispraportionate. But on the other side of the fence if you scaled the effective range of an smg to airsoft based on the effective range of a rifle to airsoft, you'd be so close you could high five your enemy. I think the answer is just to make smg's much more innacurate, and let them start shooting wildly at about 45-55 ft. Also, no hi-caps of course, I'd like to see it at about in the 2x or real cap. ammo amount issued to its real steel component. The reason being that it still makes you concious about conserving ammunition, and the 2x capacity to make up for the relative inaccuracy and short range of airsoft weapons. But hey, thats just me.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 13, 2007 17:44:33 GMT -5
I've always thought the 2 for one allowance on magazines would be a fair compromise and add to the mil sim aspect of a period game. I also think keeping sub machuine guns at stock, non upgraded levels and no hop up would be just enough of trade off to encourage people to accept the weight and length disadvantages of a rifle which seems ony fair. Granted the effect is still not anywhere near as significant as it should be but it's a start. In airsoft even a 20 to 30 foot range advantage is significant .
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Post by ukkolzi on Oct 15, 2007 7:03:48 GMT -5
The normal ~285fps (or less than 330fps) is perfectly good for SMGs. That way, you can use them without worrying about safety distances (of course some fire discipline is still required). I really don't understand if someone wants, say, a 370-400fps Thompson that outranges rifles and can't be used in close combat where it would actually belong to! I agree also with the mag capacity issue on the SMGs. To compensate for the lack of power, range and speed of real bullets, the ideal amount of BBs is about double the real gun's capacity. We had a WW2 themed game where the ammunition was part of the admittance fee, and you could not bring your own, unless your gun required a "rare caliber". This forced you conserve ammo and to think when to shoot. Of course there was resupply, but generally ammo was very precious. This meant that for example, ammo could be taken from "dead" or surrendered enemies, which adds a lot of new aspects to the game. PS. Are we derailing this thread?
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jaeger
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Post by jaeger on Oct 15, 2007 11:46:41 GMT -5
I still feel that the mags themselves need to hold more bb's, because they go by so quickly. 2-3x the actual amount seems more reasonable to me. Somewhere around 90-100 bb's per mag would make things more reasonable from my point of view (especially when someone has a TM Thompson with a 300-400 round hi cap aimed in your direction).
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Post by binarypunisher on Oct 15, 2007 12:02:22 GMT -5
I still feel that the mags themselves need to hold more bb's, because they go by so quickly. 2-3x the actual amount seems more reasonable to me. Somewhere around 90-100 bb's per mag would make things more reasonable from my point of view (especially when someone has a TM Thompson with a 300-400 round hi cap aimed in your direction). Well, 2-3 the amount would actually be 64-96. And the magazine holds 64 right? Just require that people not use hicap magazines...Battlesim games have been like that for awhile and trust me, its worth it.
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jaeger
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Post by jaeger on Oct 15, 2007 12:57:07 GMT -5
I have six mags. Each can only hold between 50 and 55 bb's per mag (depending on the mag). As you stated, 2-3x the original amount would be 64-96 rounds. In my opinion the 96-100 range would make things much more realistic. Combat would more closely match the real thing as opposed to reloading my mags every minute. I understand there is a need for realism as far as bb's go and that is why I am against the use of alot of those hicap Thompson mags in certain games. That does not, however, mean that hicaps should not be produced for use in other scenarios. So my question is why not have a high cap (300-400 rounds) for the AGM MP40 as well as a mid cap (at around 100-200 rounds)? I mean airsoft guns often require 2-3 times the amount of the original mag amount in order to achieve similar accuracy. I am willing to bet that a midcap would be a VERY popular mag, because it would allow for a more reasonable amount of time between mags and allow for players to set rules for max mag loads (i.e. only loading the midcap half way, etc.). That's just my opinion though...
Nick
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Post by Jager.Drü on Oct 19, 2007 15:37:18 GMT -5
I have an AGM and 8 mags. I do fine in WWII games and modern. Reloading is part of the fun. And you can always load your mags when you are dead. I got 20 kills with my MP this last weekend and 2 with a spring gun during a modern game.
The amount of BBs is fine. 6+1 in the gun is a lot of mags. Almost double ammo. You should be set for actual combat. Not spray and pray combat. Also why a highcap? Its not a MG, if someone wants to shoot alot, buy a MG and have at it.
Why have a magizine feed weapon if you aren't going to change mags?
For WWII games, limit the highcaps. Only load them from the top. Or if thats all they have they can only shoot semi. Even for a thompson.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 19, 2007 18:10:36 GMT -5
If players want to focus as much realism about the style of play as they do their impressions then low caps for all but designated MGs is reasonable in my book. I urge everyone to try it at their next big game and suspect that you'll never want to go back to "Spray and pray paintsoft again" The cost of buying a few extra low cap mags is initially somewhat discouraging but with the after market new mags for MP-40s and Thompsons now available the cost is way, way down. Eliminating hi caps is the single most important thing airsofters can do to enhance their mil sim experience. Real steel guns runs out of ammo extremely quickly and changing mags is very much a part of your teamwork, tactics and individual skills. Double the ammo is more then generous enough to offset the lack of range and firepower. 3 times is the absolute tops in my opinion.
If you want to reenact then by God reenact. Hi caps are for bad "B movie" wanna be action stars and paintball posers who just like cooler looking guns. I realize that is completely my opinion and others are certainly free to have their own. I'd just as well, not have them on the same field with me is all.
The current AGM MP-40 and Cyma Thompsons both shoot harder then stock AEGs used to and out perform most everything on the airsoft field which frankly is ludicrous for a weapon representing pistol ammunition. They both shoot at 330 FPS plus. Anyone who finds that inadequate for a sub machine gun on an airsoft field is really missing the point of historical airsoft.
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longsword
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Post by longsword on Oct 19, 2007 18:15:33 GMT -5
If i ship in with my experience about the little games over here. (Sweden.) The TM Thompson have lower fps than the Mp40, but shoots somewhat better at long range. I guess the hop, fitting standards etc. plays a part in this. The Cyma Thompson seems to shoot harder and somewhat longer than the TM, but i have no experience about the long term quality of it. (I hope it´s barrel holds on better in combat?..) "We" usually don´t allow highcap on our games. If you use one, and are allowed to - you are allowed to use only one. (And looked down upon i guess?) A beginner with his first stock gun with his only magazine beeing a highcap - gets more slack and less grief than a weteran who really should know better.. that brings, or atleast wants to bring a 400fps gun with 4 highcaps to a game! The double amount of bullets compared to real weapons is about the right side of things i think. You will still need to reload, and carry more magazines to get ammo out in the field and send towards your enemy. I think ww2 airsoft is more about "feel" than to "win"'/ sport anyway.. Support guns is a diffrent matter, but they get more feared and useful if not every soldier provides his own barrage of fire imo. I think that keeping SMGs in standard trim (max about 320-325fps - lower than that ideally.) and the use of lowcaps really ads to the game. Rifles can then shoot straighter and with more accuary when the distance gets longer, but close in the subguns sweeps rooms or strike down multiple adversaries etc. Everything of course only my 0.02€, your milage may vary. PS. The spellcheck seems to be down, so excuse my Swengrish spelling. DS.
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