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Post by shadycadence on Oct 19, 2008 9:12:30 GMT -5
My home group, the Minnesota Airsoft Association, requires ANZI 87.1 certified full seal goggles. More and more fields are requiring this as well, much to the chagrin of many players out there. Some of you feel that shooting glasses are just fine. (they are meant to protect you from flying casings, not projectiles) Not only are shooting glasses NOT fine, but your full seal goggles must fit properly to protect you! First Force Airsoft had a close call yesterday, this is the result of ill-fitting goggles: "I got back from the hospital about and hour ago.... I saw at last count 16 different doctors and nurses, and I have to go back daily for the next week. All in all, I have a lacerated cornea, micro hyphema, torn iris, and a hemorrhaged retina. That makes it seem worse, so I'll explain. I just have a small scratch in my eye.. it will be healed in about 2 days. The hyphema is the blood in my eye, it is in my anterior lobe, so around my lense, it is why I lost my vision on and off, it is the blood blocking the light. I have about 90% of my vision back because the blood settles slowly and over the next week will be drained from my eye by my body. I have to be careful though, cause if I move too much or tip my head upside down the blood will all come back and it can be permanent then. The torn iris is from the impact, it is rippe up and bit and pushed back into my eye. This is the worst part right now because I am at risk for glaucoma in the future, but it is only like 20% (though the doctors were freaking out still...). And the hemorrhaed retina.. that is up for debate yet.. they couldn't test the seriousness of it because of everything else, and I literally had been getting tests on my eye from 16:30 to 22:30, my eye is not happy with me. They said the retina is probably fine, but it could detach causing me to loose my sight. Though that can be fixed through some new fancy laser tech. Everything I have now should heal itself on its own over time as long as I rest, and most of the complications could be solved if they happened due to new advances, but they will be more painful and will just suck because it is taking up my time. I will be fine, don't worry, I just need time to heal. And look on the bright side, I get out of school for most of the next week since I have to rest and I get to wear this cool perferated metal patch all the time (makes my brain think I can see just fine by taking the last remaning blur out...) Though the most annoying thing is the ever runny nose.. which won't end until all of this does.. so atleast two more weeks. Also, I'll take blame for this, no one else should blame anyone, and by no means do I blame magnum (I think that's your name...your hydro bladder said magnum... but idk your name on the boards.. you aren't shorty101st are you by chance?). It was my fault that I didn't have properly sealing gogles. In fact, I really didn't know there was a gap in the nose, but it was my responsibility to check and I didn't, so I am at fault..." And this was "just a scratch". Don't his evening sound like fun? Six hours of testing one eye? Crappy! Please everyone, use good quality eye protection, and be sure it fits properly! I don't want vendors to start carrying period eye patches just for us airsofters! Stay safe, check your gear!
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Post by CharleyNovember on Oct 19, 2008 9:38:36 GMT -5
This will of course be poo-pooed by those who say shooting glasses are just fine and those darn masks/goggles "ruin" an impression...blindness ruins ones chance of seeing if you are even wearing an impression...but then maybe I am to cynical.
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Post by mischief on Oct 19, 2008 12:28:05 GMT -5
I understand the need to be "correct" in your impresssion. But not at the personal cost of ones vision. I don't care how "farb" it looks, I'll always wear full seal of some kind. Some of the the fields I go to allow mesh goggles, but I've seen BB's shatter on impact with bunkers/walls and such. In my opinion you should always use your head when it comes to anything that can be permanently damaged.
Sorry for his injury, this same kind of incident(paintball) that kept my brother in law from being a pilot for the Airforce, but a damn good officer for the Army. Best wishes I hope his recovery goes well.
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Post by shadycadence on Oct 19, 2008 13:26:00 GMT -5
No no, this was not me. This was a fellow player here in MN. I was running a game in a different location and was not there. I lifted this statement from his post on the MAA boards and spread it around in the interests of safety. The goggles he was wearing were Arena Flakjaks, a fairly common setup. Apparently the shape of his head caused the goggles to flex and create a gap around the bridge of his nose. Despite being full seal, they didn't fit him right, creating a serious issue.
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Post by Ripper on Oct 19, 2008 13:36:19 GMT -5
I'm just curious about the details..... Was close up action involved? I see more and more airsoft groups ( almost always new) making statements like "engagements limits/velocity limits" etc are for pussies. Here in KC, it is becoming a common trend. With some new Chinese guns coming out of the box at 425+ fps, many new players don't think anything of lighting each other up at close range with what we older players would consider hot guns. Safety or shooting glasses seem to be all the rage as well. Since my own airsoft organization has colapsed into oblivion, I've been gaming with a number of newer local groups. Safety seems to be something that is not as big a concern as it should be for some of them.
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Post by mischief on Oct 19, 2008 13:36:44 GMT -5
I modified my post in response to yours. But yes always double checking your gear, and making sure you have the proper gear(in the first place) for what your doing is important.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Oct 19, 2008 14:03:37 GMT -5
Ripper-We call it painsoft down here it is everywhere. Pretty applesauce ty attitude to begin with and most times criminal attitude. They don't care who they hurt because only pussies complain.....Total douchebaggery. My group doesn't put up with that crap but I have seen some clubs that encourage this sort of thing. Shady- Sounds like it was an unfortunate accident the guy was trying to do the right thing but the goggles didn't cooperate.
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Post by mischief on Oct 19, 2008 14:34:00 GMT -5
You know there was a time when people played a fun game. Dressed like their favorite persona and used real skills to win a game. Now its all about the "kills" and fps. 400 was supposed to be a limit not a goal. I just heard yesterday of a fight at a local field here in which to ten foot(safety kill) rule was ignored and almost started a fist fight.
That's why I'm getting more into WWII styled games and now the blankfire side.
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Post by shadycadence on Oct 19, 2008 15:05:50 GMT -5
Ripper-We call it painsoft down here it is everywhere. Pretty applesauce ty attitude to begin with and most times criminal attitude. They don't care who they hurt because only pussies complain.....Total douchebaggery. My group doesn't put up with that crap but I have seen some clubs that encourage this sort of thing. Shady- Sounds like it was an unfortunate accident the guy was trying to do the right thing but the goggles didn't cooperate. Yes he was. Even with proper equipment there is always that chance. And you've seen clubs encourage this? Coming soon to a field near you: Blind Joe Toughguy and the One-Eyed Jacks.People like that need to stick to checkers, they lack the mental capacity for chess.
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Post by Ripper on Oct 19, 2008 15:50:31 GMT -5
Sadly, the type of airsoft that I have enjoyed for almost 7 years is dead or dying. The backyard airsofter crowd has taken over and most organized games are little more than video games in real life. Complete tardfests. When an adult like myself suggests that maybe dumping an entire hi-cap into somebody from 10 feet is a bit much, I'm accused of being a dick. Like Mischief, I'm finding myself spending more time on blank fire and less time on airsoft simply because I prefer the company of adults and more mature teenagers than I'm finding at most airsoft games. Hopefully the guy that was hit in the eye will be ok. I've known a few guys to lose teeth and those were almost always from something silly, but I've never had to observe anyone suffering an eye injury.
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Post by maverik on Oct 19, 2008 16:22:03 GMT -5
I was wondering in Indiana for an official event you must wear ANSI rated goggles...so I was wondering would ANSI rated wiley X's work?
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Post by mischief on Oct 19, 2008 16:28:29 GMT -5
We allow them here in St.Louis and at most SLAP events. But the local field owner or game organizer has the final say so. Always check with the event/field before you go.
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Post by shadycadence on Oct 19, 2008 16:36:36 GMT -5
Damn, I'm sorry to hear this is a growing trend. That's really sad. I guess I'm spoiled up here with the MAA, a very adult-oriented organization that fosters adult behavior. If these asshats were to attend any of our games, they would leave early being excessively aware of what douchebags they truly are.
To entertain a twisted fantasy, maybe the way to teach these idiots the error of their ways is to school the pants off them and give them a sound thrashing by their own rules. My money says every one of these "toughguys" would bawl like a little schoolgirl when facing a group well trained in the arts of overwhelming speed and violence of action.
Maverick; Wiley-X's that fit properly are 100% approved by the MAA, many of our members run them. Just make sure they don't distort to fit to your face.
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Post by mischief on Oct 19, 2008 16:44:15 GMT -5
At the open play I ran yesterday during the "king of the hill" game I had a group of kids decide to have a "piece chant" in the middle of the beach. Instead of actually attacking the hill and try to win it, they just sat down. I guess instead of using tactics and good 'ol grit to win you just wait it out til the guys on the hill get bored. Didn't work my ambush guy went around and cleaned their clocks on semi and had a good laugh.
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Post by Ripper on Oct 19, 2008 17:00:13 GMT -5
My group was constantly being accused of being elitest pricks and not being newb friendly because we didn't condone such behaviour. It wasn't that we weren't newb friendly, but we wouldn't put up with the silliness that many of them wanted to bring with them. However, we had some folks that got so hung up on ultimate realism that the organization fragmented. With no middle ground, the casual players went one way and the hardcore guys went another. Other organizations have popped up that are more team/event oriented and mil-sim means wearing some surplus cammies. The guys that want to make airsoft into a 'sport' like paintball has become really aren't interested in themed scenarios anyways. A 450fps BB hose, a high-cap and a bag of bb's in their pocket is all those guys want to play with.
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Post by mischief on Oct 19, 2008 21:36:01 GMT -5
There really isn't a happy medium between the two either. And don't get me started on the "elitest prick" issue either, two good friends are basically standing down because of this. I figure the more you bring to the open play and work the "sim" into the open play it'll spike an interest in doing the more indepth style of "sim". But when someone only runs game once a month and its only "mil-sim" then the casual player won't attend. Starting this weekend open play at G-way will be every two weeks, one Saturday and next on Sunday. With the "sim" guys getting there game on when a planned "sim" comes up. The biggest problem with that are the new kids being expected to have all the gear for that one game RIGHT NOW. Well a lot of us have had the time to gather up what we need over time and can pull that off. Not so for the younger players and that turns the senior guys into said pricks. I like how WWII airsoft scenario put the "rules' out to help bring in the younger crowd that don't have the time or resources to get all the gear needed for "mil-sim". Doesn't matter what time period the "sim" is going for you can bend those rules to fit the needs of the game and those that want to attend.
But I think my now rant is going off topic. But like my friend Ripper I'm getting bored with the way the scene has been going, therefore my spike in the interest of WWII airsoft and blank firing.
Sorry for going off topic
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JazzyJ
Private
Verdammt! Die Suchfuktion zeigt mir nichts!
Posts: 64
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Post by JazzyJ on Oct 20, 2008 11:07:27 GMT -5
Other organizations have popped up that are more team/event oriented and mil-sim means wearing some surplus cammies. The guys that want to make airsoft into a 'sport' like paintball has become really aren't interested in themed scenarios anyways. A 450fps BB hose, a high-cap and a bag of bb's in their pocket is all those guys want to play with. This is the exact reason I got out of paintball. Too much spray and pray. Suppressive fire is one thing, but shooting for the sake of shooting is another. I have not been playing airsoft that long so you could imagine the look on the mans face who sold me my first airsoft rifle, when I told him I wanted a case of the 30rd low caps. He tried showing me the mid and high's and told me the rifle comes with a high cap and he couldn't grasp the concept of using low cap mags. My exact words were: "If I wanted to carry that much ammo, I would go back to paintball." My group requires 50rds or less per mag when we play.
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elder90
Private 1st Class
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Post by elder90 on Oct 20, 2008 11:54:30 GMT -5
when i first got into airsoft my friends and i didn't spray and pray we didn't have AEGs we had springers and one mag we learned to save ammo and place shots careful and at the last game i played at (before i sprained my ankle ) they would charge and not even think about the engagement rules hell one guy came around and corner and said BANG and then unloaded on ONE SPOT my arm with a 370fps G36C i mean COME ON engagement rules for that game if you are SIX FEET away you may fire if you are less then YELL bang elder90
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Lev
Private 1st Class
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Post by Lev on Oct 21, 2008 18:46:47 GMT -5
That's one of the great things about ww2 airsoft. The age group is younger than reenactors (really old) yet older than a lot of casual airsofters. The mental and financial commitment of putting together a full ww2 impression weeds out most of the ass-hats.
Here in the Wisconsin/Minnesota area we've achieved a very happy medium between an insane mil-sim mentality and the casual game. I've not done any modern airsoft having come from a reenacting background, but lately we've been attracting some of the "older" airsoft players looking for some adult company and team-oriented play (Shady is one of them). The ww2 games are apparently much slower and more deliberate than most modern games.
It's important to have standards and enforce them, but to also give the new guys some time to get their kits together. Our motto is "constant improvement as fast as your means will allow." It's hard because sometimes you have to drop the axe if there's no apparent desire to follow the rules of putting together a quality impression (or means). For example, we had to have a talk with a great recruit after his third or fourth event with a Swedish uniform. When he started "gilding the turd" and put ww2 insignia on a non-ww2 coat the subject was breached. It was a tough talk for the sergeant of our Wisconsin guys (ersatzjack2), but necessary. But it's important not to take material authenticity too far and go the "holier than thou" route that is so prevalent in reenacting.
Safety issues are a different deal. They are non-negotiable and infractions not tolerated...but you have to make a distinction between a one time mistake (learning) and negligence or stupidity. We have a 100 ft minimum engagement distance rule for guns clocking at or over 400 fps.
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Post by bataanscout on Oct 23, 2008 7:25:04 GMT -5
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Post by CharleyNovember on Oct 23, 2008 8:42:13 GMT -5
that's not bad at all. I might have to try those out. Do you think they would fit over prescription glasses?
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Post by CharleyNovember on Oct 23, 2008 13:39:33 GMT -5
I went ahead and ordered a pair of those. I'll give em a whirl and see how they do. I didn'tnotice that it said they were anzi approved so I will have to research that.
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Post by mischief on Oct 23, 2008 16:38:08 GMT -5
Checked the crosman site and its not listed there. Maybe if Bataan still has the box they came in....or when you get yours we'll find out.
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Post by shadycadence on Oct 23, 2008 18:44:38 GMT -5
CharleyNovember, maybe we could turn this into a "recommended eye protection" thread, everyone could post their known solid full-seal eye wear. Then we would have a sort of reference of what's out there, and find what best suits us. Or start a new one. Just a thought.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Oct 23, 2008 19:06:43 GMT -5
Problem here is that there is a wide berth in what people can use and do use depending on where in the nation they are. Some use mesh some can't/won't use mesh. Some use shooting glasses some that's a no go. Same with paintball goggles. Some fields require them or at least full seal. Some players would rather be caught dead...or blind before they use them..I use SWD gogs with balistic lenses in them. These did not meet the ANZI certification because they melt not because they wouldn't stop a projectile. I have shot mine with upgraded rifles with no issue....boy how I have lead this astray.
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Post by mischief on Oct 23, 2008 19:26:06 GMT -5
Ya but sometimes going off topic actually makes the original topic stronger.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 23, 2008 23:07:17 GMT -5
At an event I ran some years ago a player claimed he got hit in the eye with a richchete in the assembly area between missions. This was supposed to be an area where magazines were out and safeties on. The range was pretty decent so the hit was not close up. The BB also didn't hit his eye directly. Regardless the wound was serious enough for his admission in an emergency room and I was sweating bullets as you can imagine.
A good idea before any event would be to demonstrate what a BB does to a small tomato which has about the consistency of a human eye. Also demonstrate what 10 feet/ 20 feet or whatever your minimum engagement rules are so folks can accurately visualize it.
At Liberty canyon I was a Observer and was gathering up otherwise disengaged wounded and trying to get them back into play or escorted back to the firebase. Iwatched one of these imature idiot players remove his goggles to wipe them down. Fully exposed in the middle of the AO. I'm sure he felt isolated and perfectly safe when he did it. As he stood there two NVA players rose out of the bushes about 20 feet from him and were about to unload on him and his buddy. I shouted CEASE FIRE CEASE FIRE NO GOGGLES and scared the crap out of the NVA guys as I was behind them at the time.
I gave the kids (probably 15) an earful, annouced them as dead and walked them back to the firebase. I should have thrown them out of the event but they had been dropped off by their parents. The dudes explanation was he didn't see the bad guys. Hmmmmmm Isn't that sort of the point? It's crap like that that will either end Airsoft as a hobby, discourage sponsors from putting on events or insure that it becomes exclusively an 18 or over hobby.
Saftey has to remain number one and in all too many incidences the teenage brain doesn't seem to comprehend that. The cavalier nature with which he removed his goggles was unbelievable. Totally irresponsible and selfish.
Be careful everyone and I really appreciate this post as the message can't be overly emphasized
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Post by tomhanks1124 on Oct 24, 2008 8:44:49 GMT -5
I'm from Michigan and this is always been a problem. Full seal or not. The group I play with (West Michigan Airsoft) has come up with a set of rules that we feel covers most if not all bases. This is what we think works on our field.
18 and over- wear what you want, as long it's ANZI 87.1 certified.
16-17 yrs old.- Full seal. No questions asked.
15 and younger- full face mask. No questions asked.
We are a public field. The owner of the field was ok with this. We just don't want players to leave because we want to give them a choice. We have signs posted all over the field repeat'n these rules. If your goggles fog up, we ask, that if it's real bad fogg'n up, to call yourself out to go to the staging area to fix it, if not deal with it. I, myself play with my everyday glasses. But I bought them with the lenses that are the best on the field. My glasses can take a hit from a 5/8 steel ball at 90 mph and only scatch. I do have side shields that I can take off. The Michigan Airsoft Forum won't post your event if you don't follow their rules. We have the same rules, but the goggle rule is different, so there for, they won't post our events. But we figure we can still do it without them. We have 78 members on our forums, and that isn't to bad, for a local group. I also have been play'n for 7 yrs and I too also have seen some stupid kid walk'n around the staging area with gun in hand, mag in gun, and point'n the gun around and making gun sounds, and arguing about putt'n the gun down. The kids today don't understand. But the players that are try'n to get their gun up to 700-800 fps are not welcomed on our field. We have turned away a few. And as they walk away they call a pussies. No, its just not fun with that on the field. I have gotten in the habit of look'n down when I'm in a fire fight. My helmet gets a lot of hits. It don't matter a how safe you are, and this thread says it all.
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Post by mischief on Oct 24, 2008 18:09:41 GMT -5
FYI on those crosman gogg's they are Anzi rated 87.1 found a pair today and double checked by calling the 1800 number on the box and talked to a rep at Crosman. So I picked up a pair to try out.
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Post by tinydata on Oct 25, 2008 15:47:53 GMT -5
huh eye safety is REALLY important
One of my friends had a Tanaka AICS pre-ban. One of his friends turned it up to 700 fps or so, then got the bright idea of checking the barrel. He was wearing shooting glasses, and lo and behold, the rifle discharged. The kid now is permanently blind in one eye. Don't know him personally, but that is one of those stupid things that happen.
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