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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Mar 11, 2009 13:14:00 GMT -5
Hello my German Friends. Yes, it is I coming to you, the community, yet again with another topic in- “Airsoft Tactics.”
As all of you who have been to a New York WWII Airsoft event in the last two years can and might attest: the Allies have definitely control the field in the way of automatic weapon superiority; especially given the luck we Germans have had in the past with our light and heavy machine guns failing us time and again. Such as the heavy MG-42 mounted in the pillbox on a tripod only firing one burst at last years Mignano Gap game, and then failing!
Now with the release of the affordable AGM STG-44 AEG things might be turning around at this years North East May event in Connecticut. Although, I do hope we will not see the frequency of STG-44’s that we do Thompsons.
Anyway, back on topic… So let’s discuss how that might translate into Airsoft for us Germans in the field of battle. Is the STG going to be the solution to that much needed firepower on the German lines? Your thoughts:
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Lev
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Post by Lev on Mar 11, 2009 19:14:24 GMT -5
Interesting question Herr Obergefreiter!
In our neck of the woods the AGM MP40 is the most common German weapon followed by a healthy stock of Ersatzjack's custom-built K98s. Between these two weapons we're able to cover long and short ranges with good effect. My concern with the new MP44 is the combo of a high fps and large capacity magazine. Too many of these guns could result in games turning into a bb-spray-fest. The fps is also way too high for a full-auto gun. While we haven't discussed it in the MOA yet, we'll have to figure out how to allow these guns in an unmodified state. Our current rules would dictate a minimum engagement distance of 100 ft for any weapon firing over 400 fps.
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MAS
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Post by MAS on Mar 11, 2009 19:24:34 GMT -5
These STGs may have a very high fps new but like most Chinese guns they should settle out at a lower fps after being used for a little while. The problem right now is that they do not have any low cap mags.
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Medic
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Post by Medic on Mar 11, 2009 20:37:16 GMT -5
That would be horrible if the Germans start buying the StG 44s en mass. Thompsons, forget about it, it's probably like a 10:1 ratio. Are there metal/wood kits?
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 11, 2009 20:54:09 GMT -5
Don't count on the velocity dropping off quickly unless you deliberately leave them in a cocked state even then it's pretty slow to occure. There are velocity reducers that work well. Another thought is to limit them to semi auto fire and have ammo restrictions. We limit most GIs to semi fire even if equipped with a Thompson. It seems to work.
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Karl
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Post by Karl on Mar 11, 2009 21:02:29 GMT -5
I've heard that the MP44 has horrible accuracy even up to only 50 feet.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 22:19:22 GMT -5
I think that the possibility of too many of these on the field is definitely there. I feel it is kind of up to the clubs to put rules in place then. Not necessarily 'no Stg-44's,' but more along the lines of 1. All AEG's must be under 350 FPS unless in a designated support role (MG34, MG42, FG42, etc.) 2. No high capacity magazines unless in a designated support role or especially approved beforehand.
I think a few basic rules laid down like that would seriously limit the numbers of them you'd see on the field. Although it isn't exceptionally difficult to pop open a mechbox and swap out a spring, many people aren't willing to open one. This alongside the fact that Midcap mags would have to be custom made (that is, until they come out with some for it), would make it so the Stg-44 won't have a negative effect on game play.
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kalbs
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Post by kalbs on Mar 12, 2009 4:48:20 GMT -5
Mid Cap Mags are not a problem, Shoei's seem to work. The ROF on an 8.4v is actually lower than the real MP44 and reducing the fps is just a spring change away or for a quick change by yourselves, buy a pre-build M16 Full stock Ver 2 Systema gearbox with the M100 or M120 already installed and upgraded. Easy Peasy. Accuracy is only a tighter bore barrel change to a TN 6.04. Minor issues
Just establish the game rules the fps rates and that all Magazines must be low or mid cap. If anyone wants to use the MP44 it's up to the owner to make it playable. Doing a mid cap conversion is probably not that difficult. If it's enforced it shouldn'tchange the current game too much. It's better than using an AK and calling it an MP
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Mar 12, 2009 8:29:33 GMT -5
I think some of these limitations you guys are talking about are a bit much. At least, a bit much until options are available; such as mid & low capacity magazines. Of which, if I may point out, that I rarely see the allies using low or mid capacity magazines with their Thompsons or their Browning Automatic riffles; at least, not around these parts anyways.
For now, I think we here in the Northeast we should and can restrict the STG44 with the same restrictions the Browning Automatic riffles have on their guns as far as magazine capacity is concerned. No restriction!
I think first and foremost we should define the role the STG-44 is going to play. Are we going to use it as an assault weapon much like the MP-40? Or are we going to use it as a light support weapon like an MG-34 or MG-42?
Personally, I would rather see the STG-44 used as a support weapon. My argument here is that the MG-42 & MG-34 are not reliable enough in their supporting role to rely upon in Airsoft combat. Those machine guns are also not in enough numbers. But, again, we don’t want a German force made up entirely of support weapons either. Therefore, I think we should, as event organizers, limit the number of STG-44’s accordingly.
Therefore, for our Zug size force, I’d hope the limit was 2-3 in a support role only. For a Gruppe, 1-2.
So a Gruppe would probably look like thus in the “North East” MG42/34 - support role only MP40 MP40 STG44 STG44 K98 K98 K98 K98
And would be facing an allied squad like so in the “North East” M1 Thompson M1 Thompson M1 Thompson M1 Thompson M1 Thompson M1 Thompson M1 Thompson M1 Thompson M1 Grand M1 Carbine BAR 30 cal
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Post by Gordak on Mar 12, 2009 16:37:17 GMT -5
yeah thats an accurate assesment of what the battles will look like, hopefully a few more garands thanks to 2ndBat. The B.A.R. mags are something like 120 rounds, but yes, they are much more accurate than the 44, kind of realistic actually Im personally for no restriction for now, lots of guys upgraded their mp40s anyway after all the begging we did to keep them stock. Until we set solid rules there isnt much we can do. We could try to say semi auto only on 44s, after all 450 fps is sniper rules at nearly every field. Or semi only when your using a high cap but you can go nuts if you have midcaps. But im more for lets just see how it goes and then come up with rules, not speculate now and possible make mistakes that will cost people. also I sense the 44 cant keep up that fps before the piston goes, especially with 600 round mags. finally I would rather see lots of evil mp44s than m14s, aks and m4s. so... what would you guys think about semi only for non support weapons firing over 400 fps?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2009 18:58:15 GMT -5
Sounds great to me!
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Medic
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Post by Medic on Mar 12, 2009 19:51:16 GMT -5
Raimund, it's actually like 8x Thompson and 1x BAR. Weapon quantity restrictions would be very nice, like in a unit, x amount of people can have a Thompson, x amount of people can have StG 44s. I do believe that StG usage will fluxuate (am I using/spelling that correctly?), because most people prefer automatics to bolt actions - obviously -. Most people do have enough period accuracy integrity to get the more correct weapon. The Allies taught me that
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MAS
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Post by MAS on Mar 12, 2009 20:26:22 GMT -5
Nice thoughts Medic but if you put to many restions less people will be able to play, the best thing to do is keep telling new players to get rifles not smgs and hopefully it will change slowly.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Mar 13, 2009 5:27:28 GMT -5
I think that Semi-auto only on a 450fps gun is fair. And yes, some people upgraded their AGM MP-40 to around 350FPS. I know I did. The problem with doing it, and I wish this was a bit more well known to players, is that the battery in the AGM MP-40 does not last long at all. Also, the standard batter won’t even pull the piston so you have to get a higher powered battery etc. In fact, it won’t last throughout a few hours of sustained fighting. Not to mention, the increased range is really not all that worth it. You get about 10 to 15 feet more than the stock version. To be honest, I’m seriously thinking about putting the stock spring back in the gun.
As for the STG-44. It is yet to be said how long it will hold up with the current spring, piston etc. inside. But, if it is restricted to semi-auto only. I recommend anyone who gets one to put a tight bore barrel inside it.
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Post by Gordak on Mar 13, 2009 9:53:59 GMT -5
tight bore and go semi, or drop in a weaker spring and rock and roll. -Gordak
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Lev
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Post by Lev on Mar 13, 2009 11:25:11 GMT -5
One could make the argument that a large number of players with autos is actually a bit more realistic than players with single action guns. Why? An airsoft gun has a very limited range and doesn't cut through cover like a real bullet. All the extra plastic helps make up for a lack of range, power, and flat ballistics. No matter what you do, an airsoft fight is never going to have much resemblance to a real fire fight.
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Post by Gordak on Mar 13, 2009 12:18:20 GMT -5
Very good point Udo, and lets not forget the main point, Full auto is AWESOME! -Gordak
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Post by Warlord on Mar 13, 2009 12:29:58 GMT -5
Really? The performance in my gun has improved significantly. I'm getting more range than I get with a stock ICS M16, which is pretty impressive, considering hopup was turned down. Of course accuracy was poor. I think it depends on what version of the MP40 you get. My gun was a very early version, so stock it would be shooting somewhere around 260-270, whereas many of the newer version AGMs are shooting in the mid 300s. So I don't think those would need to be upgraded at all.
You just need a good quality 9.6v to pull the spring if you're going to upgrade it to around 400fps.
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Post by Garrick Udet on Mar 13, 2009 13:54:46 GMT -5
I'll echo Warlord on that. My stock AGM MP40 shoots consistently at 335fps with .25BBs
My stock CYMA thompson is right there too.
We do have to be realistic about the fact that for an entry level player the most economical guns are full auto AEG Thompsons, MP40s and now, to a somewhat lesser extent, the STG-44.
Udo and I had the same conversation offline this week about how an STG would actually make a good MG stand-in until a more reliable german MG is available.
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Post by Gordak on Mar 13, 2009 16:14:39 GMT -5
I agree,
I just think there is going to be alot of em around, so calling them a "support weapon" might be going a bit far. But by all means treat them like one, I mean the mp40 guys dash foreward while the 44 supresses, absolutly.
I think the BAR isnt a support weapon because its tiny magazine capacity, its just very accurate which makes it feared.
Like the mg34s and 42s, the .30s are full of problems also. I think this summer is going to be alot of fun with the new toys out in force. -Gordak
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Post by Warlord on Mar 13, 2009 16:30:28 GMT -5
I'm still confident that a healthy number of Germans will be fielding 98ks at any event. The MP40 didn't take over the battlefield after its release and I don't think this gun will either. Maybe I'm wrong, but honestly it doesn't matter either way because at least we get a little more diversity in our choice of weapon, and I'm all for that.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Mar 16, 2009 6:30:59 GMT -5
I'm still confident that a healthy number of Germans will be fielding 98ks at any event. The MP40 didn't take over the battlefield after its release and I don't think this gun will either. Maybe I'm wrong, but honestly it doesn't matter either way because at least we get a little more diversity in our choice of weapon, and I'm all for that. I have to agree. I don't think i'll be putting down my K98 anytime soon. And I know you are itching to use your new K98 as well.
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Post by zbear on Mar 16, 2009 12:50:36 GMT -5
I think it would depend on the time frame of the battle. There are pictures of whole units armed with the mp44 in mid to late 44 and into 45. I agree the fps seems a bit extreme out of the box but in a late war scenario I would have no problems witha a whole squad using them. By late war I mean d-day to the fall of berlin. Right now restricting magazine capacity makes no sense because no low or mids are available. So I agree using them in semi makes sense. If I can get one I will probably downgrade it to mid 300 fps, of course won't be able to afford one for some time the way things are going. I think that perhaps it may level the playing field slightly..
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 16, 2009 19:19:26 GMT -5
I think limiting the ones that are firing above 400FPS to semi is the way to go. (For now) Maybe someday this hobby will reach a level of sophisitication where individual weapons capabilities can be more officially drawn into play but for now keep it simple and easy for folks to participate. Ultimately it will be good to have weapons firing rifle ammunition use a higher FPS and heavier BB while submachine guns are kept at lower FPS but again we're a long way from there at this point in our evolution. With the Mp44 shooting well above 400 FPS and capacity for full auto and a high cap I'm more concerned about safety than anything else. The dynamics of airsoft guns changes dramatically above around 350 FPS in terms of the damage they can do. If everyone had full face masks I wouldn't sweat it that much but I've seen too many chipped teeth and bloody face wounds to relax on the issue.
I know, I know, everyone says that's up to the individual player and we all take our chances but repeat that when your wounded opponents parents send you a bill for $900 from their dentist, and your lawyer explains that parents can't sign away their childrens rights with a waiver, so spend thousands defending yourself, or just go ahead and pay the bill.
All of this of course can happen with guns shooting below 350 FPS but the odds go up exponentially with hotter guns.
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Post by spitfire740 on Mar 16, 2009 19:30:20 GMT -5
I agree with 2nd Bats logic, only thing is here in the midwest we have to sign the ww2aa waiver. I dont know if you guys have the same policy, but it would definately prevent a lawsuit. I understand where you're coming from though, it would suck really bad to send a player into a hospital or dentist.
Semi auto restrictions do seem to be the only convenient thing to do at this point. You cant ask a new member to downgrade his first airsoft gun, I know if it were me that had to downgrade I would say nooooooo way! Just because spending $200+ on it you're not going to want to willingly adjust it to perform 'worse.' If that makes sense.
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Post by Gordak on Mar 16, 2009 22:51:22 GMT -5
the consensus is, all guns over 400 fps are semi only, this is a common airsoft rule. Mgs can be over 400, but your really crazy to do it, (they never last long at high fps).
Ive got my 44 at the shop getting down graded, It will be at the May game.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 17, 2009 18:52:45 GMT -5
Consider as Gordak suggests that "downgrading" your gun isn't the whole story. Reducing the FPS will most likely have a very positive effect on longevity and will have nominal, if any, effect on range. The increased range of an upgraded airsoft gun is very very slight (five to 10 feet typically) Add to it, the ability to fire fully auto and do a proper grease job in your Chinese gear box and odds are it will turn out to be a worthwhile investment you'll never regret.
Obviously by incorporating the semi rule you allow each player to determine how they want to approach it and probably end up with a more appropriate number of people firing on semi which I have found makes for a better event anyway.
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Gabe
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Post by Gabe on Mar 18, 2009 9:51:07 GMT -5
Like most other people have said, new players like myself that do the allied impressions only have the cyma thompson to turn to. I plan on upgrading mine to shooting about 380 with a .25g .The uniform is whats going to run me in money.
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Lev
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Post by Lev on Mar 18, 2009 14:45:29 GMT -5
I know, I know, everyone says that's up to the individual player and we all take our chances but repeat that when your wounded opponents parents send you a bill for $900 from their dentist, and your lawyer explains that parents can't sign away their childrens rights with a waiver, so spend thousands defending yourself, or just go ahead and pay the bill. At the end of the day a lawyer can get around a waiver, especially when a minor is involved. This is one of the reasons we require that players under 18 be accompanied by an actual parent in the MOA. It only takes one kid getting hurt and sueing to result in events being mandated 18+ That would be a major bummer for all the minors.
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Post by Rekkon on Mar 18, 2009 15:43:03 GMT -5
Like most other people have said, new players like myself that do the allied impressions only have the cyma thompson to turn to. I plan on upgrading mine to shooting about 380 with a .25g .The uniform is whats going to run me in money. You are aware that is equivalent to about 425 fps with .2g, quiaff? Typically when we discuss velocities, it is assumed we are quoting figures using .2g BBs. 380 with .25g would put you well into the "semi-only" category of the discussion, and CYMA Thompsons already shoot in the 400 range stock. I am all for the idea of restricting weapons so their relative class attributes are maintained, but practically speaking the WW II airsoft player base is not large enough to impose many restrictions while maintaining good attendance. To a much larger degree than modern modern airsoft, we are held hostage to slipping in the "I can only afford the weapon X package that came with a high cap" demographic. Nothing against those people, but the startup cost for WW II is higher; you cannot get around it. I would love to have broad, restrictive standards (like cap subguns at 300, MP44/BAR types at 350, dedicated MGs 450, rifles 500, etc., etc.), but ultimately I would rather have a game with 50 people than 10. And ha! I laugh at bloody face wounds. They hurt no more than non-bloody face hits after the first few seconds, then they serve primarily to freak out other players. ;D
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