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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Mar 26, 2009 9:19:23 GMT -5
I have longed to use correct formations, tactics and movements in our WW2 Airsoft scrimmages and games for a while now. However, in some instances the implementation of such has failed miserably. ;D Therefore, let us discuss, if you will, the “Skirmish line” (DIE SCHÜTZENKETTE)! How do you the reader feel this combat formation scales in the Airsoft Battlefield? Can we as German units really get away with implementing this basic formation in Airsoft Combat? Is it worth our time to learn how to move into a Skirmish line from an “Indian file line” etc? Maybe you don’t care. If so, please do not respond in this thread. I’d like to have a constructive conversation. Best regards to all! See the formation here: “DIE SCHÜTZENREIHE to a DIE SCHÜTZENKETTE” In my opinion, I think this formation is perhaps impractical in Airsoft Combat given the limitations at which our weapons fire; along with the fact that players are, for the most part, allowed to overwhelmingly use automatic weapons without much restriction or limitation. Ultimately what this creates is an achievement of fire superiority which disables the movement of forces along the front lines or flanks due to suppression or pinning. In example: I have to believe a German force of five riflemen, one Machine gunner with two assistance and perhaps two men with MP40’s would get completely annihilated against a force of Allied troops, whom are mostly armed with Thompson AEG weapons. This scenario degrades even further if we account for high capacity magazines. Now this is no rant! Therefore Regardless of the above, I must believe we as a group can only use this formation and others like it; under certain conditions and game play rules that allow for more realism. So my question remains. Can we use real German infantry tactics or not? What is your opinion?
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Post by jugendkrieger on Mar 26, 2009 23:52:00 GMT -5
This is the standard operating procedure for german squad movements from late43/early44 and on.... Commands Being.
Schutzenreihe - Protective line Schutzenkette - Protective chain Schutzenkette Links - Protective chain left Schutzenkette Rechts- Protective chain right
After the command is given, there is typically a measure given afterwards for the spacing in between men. for example
Schutzenkette Links, Abstand funf Schritt. ( Protective chain left, 5 step space.)
The German squad was trained to be Fluid in their spacing during combat maneuvering however, Cover and concealment was thought more important than strict spacing of men.
When using this in an airsoft situation one must remember that each man in the squad has a VERY specific role and it is crucial that it is drilled.
the key to the illustration is as follows. (also going by rank and command structure)
- All Black Character (Squad leader) - Half Black Character (Assistant Squad leader) - Character with Stripe going all the way through and 2 dots (mg) - 2 Characters with 2 dots (Mg Assistant and Ammo Bearer) - Rest Being riflemen
The purpose of the German squad is the exact opposite of the u.s squad. The Machine gun is given to the best shot in the gruppe. T he idea is for the riflemen to funnel enemy twords the Machine gunner which lies in wait.
I.E
Advancing under Schutzenkette Links The Command is given to fire upon an enemy patrol, The MG abstaining The Enemy Thinks the weakness is to the right, Attempts to exploit this. And is in turn Destroyed by the MG.
Hochachtung! Marc
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Gerry
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Post by Gerry on Mar 27, 2009 8:30:07 GMT -5
Excellent posts by both Ray and Marc. If you are comparing this to blankfire reenacting the distances are rarely different as I have stated in blankfire reenacting I have never had a soviet or GI "take Their hit" beyond 50 meters though an 8MM mauser could easily hit targets accurately at over 300 yards. Another illustration: In Airsoft reenacting distances are very similair, airsoft guns are barely effective beyond 50 meters and most US squads are 90% equipped with Thompson SMG's with what seems like an endless amount of ammo, now I am not sure of the make up of a US Squad but it is likely they did not have more than 2 SMG's per squad. However, I am not sure that even if US squads were equipped historically correct that these tactics would work in Airsoft. I would love to experiment with authentic German military tactics on a correctly equipped US Squad to see what the result would be! Now as far as using this tactic I am all for it because it is historically correct to the army we are portraying even if it may not be that effective. It also gives us something to drill for and makes for good discussion. Thanks Ray and Thanks Marc! These are very well explained and informative posts especially for the rash of newcomers on the boards! Thanks to the reenacting grpoup Der Erste Zug for the illustrations used, they have a excellent section on many things WWII German check it out here www.dererstezug.com/equipment.htm-Gerry
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Mar 27, 2009 8:35:59 GMT -5
First, thank you for your kind words Gerry.
Second, I think we should experiment with the maneuvers and formations a bit wherever possible.
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Post by Jager.Drü on Mar 27, 2009 9:25:44 GMT -5
We used the correct tactics at the Last Long Winter. They work ok in airsoft. You just need two different gruppes. One to be base of fire and the other to flank.
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Post by jugendkrieger on Mar 27, 2009 16:12:50 GMT -5
Well. If you have a Fire Team and an Assault team, you are a GI. There is one thing I forgot to mention. Single German squads NEVER ever fought as a single Gruppe. German combat patrols that were typically a single gruppe would advance until fired on and then withdraw and report. The Smallest german unit that could be commited to battle on a paper is a kompanie, Or around 120 Men. So If you think of all the different Gruppes that could be in the fluid advance using the same tactics you can see how brutal it can be. for airsoft purposes you should focus around a Zug. A Zug is 3 9 man squads. It should look something like this if you are doing it right (My memory is slightly foggy on the command section but i believe it to be correct) Command Section1 Zugfuhrer 1 Asst. Zugfuhrer 1 Radio operator 1 Radio operator 2 6 Runners Combat SectionErste Gruppe 1 Gruppenfuhrer 1 Truppfuhrer 1 MG Schutze 1 Zwo 1 Munitionschutze 4 Gewehr Schutze Zweite Gruppe 1 Gruppenfuhrer 1 Truppfuhrer 1 MG Schutze 1 Zwo 1 Munitionschutze 4 Gewehr Schutze Dritte Gruppe 1 Gruppenfuhrer 1 Truppfuhrer 1 MG Schutze 1 Zwo 1 Munitionschutze 4 Gewehr Schutze
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Gerry
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Post by Gerry on Mar 27, 2009 20:29:14 GMT -5
Ouch!
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Post by jugendkrieger on Mar 28, 2009 13:08:23 GMT -5
Ouch? I hope I didn't say anything to offend anyones sensibilities. I have been trying to dial back on the offensive-ness and crank up the info.
also as a key for terminology if it is unclear,
Gruppe - Squad, (1 SMG, 1 light machine gun, 7 Rifleman) Zug - 3 Squads, 1/3rd of a Kompanie Kompanie - Kompanie 3 Zugs of combat Troops plus command. Gruppenfuhrer- Squad Leader Truppfuhrer - Patrol leader(asst. squad leader) MG schutze - (MG gunner) Gewehrschutze - Riflemen Zugfuhrer - Platoon Commander Zwo - Litterally the german military short word for 2 (machinegunner #2) Munitionschutze - Ammo Carrier
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Post by CharlieEverywhere on Mar 28, 2009 14:41:07 GMT -5
To expound on what Marc said, the MG was such an integral part of the German infantry squad that without the MG, there was no squad. If the squad's MG was ever lost in action (MG position being overrun, MG being irreparably damaged/destroyed, etc.) the squad would have been disbanded and the squad members sent to other units to fill out the ranks. As a note to this, these are merely regulations and didn't always work out that way in the field, particularly very late-war when German weapons production was coming to a standstill and the MG shortage increased. Still, it's worth mentioning to show just how much emphasis the Wehrmacht placed on squad-level MG's.
Also, the formations and TO&E's Marc mentioned above aren't always applicable to all units throughout the war. For instance, FJ units often had more than one Machinenpistole and even occasionally more than one MG per squad. Research of your particular choice of unit would be necessary to see just how our unit was equipped. These modified TO&E's would lead to changes in the formations used by a squad, but again, research will show how specialist units adapted to these equipment changes.
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Gerry
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Post by Gerry on Mar 28, 2009 15:42:51 GMT -5
Ouch? I hope I didn't say anything to offend anyones sensibilities. I have been trying to dial back on the offensive-ness and crank up the info. also as a key for terminology if it is unclear, Gruppe - Squad, (1 SMG, 1 light machine gun, 7 Rifleman) Zug - 3 Squads, 1/3rd of a Kompanie Kompanie - Kompanie 3 Zugs of combat Troops plus command. Gruppenfuhrer- Squad Leader Truppfuhrer - Patrol leader(asst. squad leader) MG schutze - (MG gunner) Gewehrschutze - Riflemen Zugfuhrer - Platoon Commander Zwo - Litterally the german military short word for 2 (machinegunner #2) Munitionschutze - Ammo Carrier Ouch! was directed towards the damage 3 well equipped German squads could do ;D
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Ersatzjack
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Post by Ersatzjack on Mar 28, 2009 16:23:52 GMT -5
Correct. Different squads meant different load-outs. Not all squads were rifle squads. If you have a lot of guys carrying MP-40s you could be an engineer (pioneer squad) or if you have several MP-44s opt to call yourselves a Volksgrenadier squad (Gruppe). Out at Long Winter 09, we did try to emulate the German tactics. It was driven home by our leaders that the Germans fought not as Squads but as Platoons. We always tried when able to bring the most men to bear on an American squad. It was fun. Remember we didn't have Kompanie sized participation but we tried to scale things accordingly. That's what we tried to do at least. AGM needs to come out with an MG next and you'll see these tactics used for airsoft to a much larger extent.
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Post by jugendkrieger on Mar 29, 2009 4:52:37 GMT -5
Yes. What everyone has said thus far is very true. this is the IDEAL situation, It is what should have happened. Also i'd like to point out that these regulations are only true for Infantrie, PanzerGrenadier, Grenadier, Volksgrenadier, and Schutzen units for sure. I haven't researched pioneer, or falschirmjaegers so I will keep my big trap shut . But as another tidbit, for a German "rifle squad", There was never any sort of a difference in Gewehrschutzen as far as issue goes, (K98,G43,G41,Mkb42,Mp43,Stg44) They are still simply "Gewehrschutze". In practical applications an stg44 is a lot different than a k98, but the original Germans did not make that distinction.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Mar 29, 2009 9:56:43 GMT -5
Yes. What everyone has said thus far is very true. this is the IDEAL situation, It is what should have happened. Also i'd like to point out that these regulations are only true for Infantrie, PanzerGrenadier, Grenadier, Volksgrenadier, and Schutzen units for sure. I haven't researched pioneer, or falschirmjaegers so I will keep my big trap shut . But as another tidbit, for a German "rifle squad", There was never any sort of a difference in Gewehrschutzen as far as issue goes, (K98,G43,G41,Mkb42,Mp43,Stg44) They are still simply "Gewehrschutze". In practical applications an stg44 is a lot different than a k98, but the original Germans did not make that distinction. That is a good point. They didn't make the distinction between the different arms the Gewehrschutze carried! ;D I'm glad this thread got the attention I had hoped.
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Gerry
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Post by Gerry on Mar 29, 2009 10:34:27 GMT -5
Yes. What everyone has said thus far is very true. this is the IDEAL situation, It is what should have happened. Also i'd like to point out that these regulations are only true for Infantrie, PanzerGrenadier, Grenadier, Volksgrenadier, and Schutzen units for sure. I haven't researched pioneer, or falschirmjaegers so I will keep my big trap shut . But as another tidbit, for a German "rifle squad", There was never any sort of a difference in Gewehrschutzen as far as issue goes, (K98,G43,G41,Mkb42,Mp43,Stg44) They are still simply "Gewehrschutze". In practical applications an stg44 is a lot different than a k98, but the original Germans did not make that distinction. That is a good point. They didn't make the distinction between the different arms the Gewehrschutze carried! ;D I'm glad this thread got the attention I had hoped. So technically a German gruppe in late '44 through VE day could be completely equipped with STG 44 and a MG42 or reissued 34 depending on unit status and logistics. Doing some research I have read that many of the veteran Wehrmact units on the front lines did not receive the STG44, especially along the Ostfront obviously this is much due to supply problems, lack of vehicles etc. I have seen photos which I would like to get some posted of whole Kompanies with STG 44's. I do believe also read they mostly made it to th western front and within Germany and that the Wehrmact did have plans to completely replace all the weapons with the Sturgewehr. Obviously this was a far fetched Idea due to the condition of the German armed forces and war production post Ardennes offensive.
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Post by Jager.Drü on Mar 29, 2009 17:11:57 GMT -5
How we did it at Long Winter. FJ Gruppe would lay down the fire with our MG,sub guns, FG42, MP44.Gruppenfuhrer and Truppfuhrer Stewie and I were armed with Rifles, one AS and my blank fire . Then the Heer/SS gruppes would flank and push through with rifle, sub gun and grenades. Mopping up the Amis. Then we would move up and lay down fire again. We didn't have a whole Zug. We had 2 and a half gruppes. We worked well with what we had.
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Gerry
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Post by Gerry on Mar 29, 2009 19:09:18 GMT -5
How we did it at Long Winter. FJ Gruppe would lay down the fire with our MG,sub guns, FG42, MP44.Gruppenfuhrer and Truppfuhrer Stewie and I were armed with Rifles, one AS and my blank fire . Then the Heer/SS gruppes would flank and push through with rifle, sub gun and grenades. Mopping up the Amis. Then we would move up and lay down fire again. We didn't have a whole Zug. We had 2 and a half gruppes. We worked well with what we had. Excellent, this is standard supress and flank, I think it was called the 4 F's find, fix, flank and finish used by US forces in WWII on.I am happy to hear it works in Airsoft. Gerry
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Post by spitfire740 on Mar 30, 2009 10:58:09 GMT -5
Hammer and Anvil?
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Post by Jager.Drü on Apr 4, 2009 21:15:38 GMT -5
How we did it at Long Winter. FJ Gruppe would lay down the fire with our MG,sub guns, FG42, MP44.Gruppenfuhrer and Truppfuhrer Stewie and I were armed with Rifles, one AS and my blank fire . Then the Heer/SS gruppes would flank and push through with rifle, sub gun and grenades. Mopping up the Amis. Then we would move up and lay down fire again. We didn't have a whole Zug. We had 2 and a half gruppes. We worked well with what we had. Excellent, this is standard supress and flank, I think it was called the 4 F's find, fix, flank and finish used by US forces in WWII on.I am happy to hear it works in Airsoft. Gerry Its also what the Germans did with the Schutzenkette. They stayed in "Indian File" die Schutzenreihe as long as possible then spread out to shutzenkette. Quote from Der Este Zug, which all this is taken from anyway. METHOD OF ADVANCE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the approach march, squads and platoons advance on a narrow front, deployed in depth along roadside hedges and scrub growth, and in hollows running in the desired direction. The leading squads, on contact, serve as scouts and patrols. They advance in extended order, with a light machine gun leading. While the squads immediately behind the forward squads deploy less deeply at intervals of 30 to 40 paces, the subsequent squads follow in squad columns so as to have all-around observation and protection. Special observers are detailed to watch out for tree snipers. www.dererstezug.com/FightInWoodeded.htmwww.dererstezug.com/TacticalPhilosophies.htmThese tactics went something like this: the squad leader advances with his whole unit until contact is made; the MG then opens up on the enemy to achieve "fire superiority". If a good hosing down with this lollipops isn't enough to either destroy or run off the opposition, the whole squad would leapfrog forward in short rushes until the desired effect was achieved. In the event that the MG fire itself wasn't enough to finish the job, the gun would be used in a suppression mode as the riflemen went in to clean up with hand-grenades and the bayonet
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Post by herrgothic on Apr 21, 2009 1:09:27 GMT -5
The Schützenreihe is used for approaching the enemy and during the fire fight when only the Gruppe MG is firing and the riflemen are held back. If the tactical situation requires the combined fire of the MG and the rifleman, then the Schützenkette should be formed You do not normally assault against the enemy all spread out on a broad front. It goes like this: 1. Advance close using Schuetzenreihe 2. Once contact is made, the squad leader decides: a. Fire fight, deploy into Schuetzenkette and shoot back b. Suppress with MG and then form up the rest of squad as follows 1. Grenades given to one or more Grenadiers 2. The rest of the Schuetzen formed up with the Trupenfuehrer 3. MG suppresses enemy 4. Grenadier and Schuetzen Rush up the hill fireing from the hip, sometimes with the MG gunner as well, or via bounding overwatch 5. The Grenadiere throw grenades while Schuetzen rush up the hill to assault at close range Keeping the assault into as narrow a front as possible will allow you to focus your effort, although the damage potentially caused by potential artillery support must be considered. Immediately before the assault the kompanie mortars and infantrie guns to open fire and provide direct and immediate fire support. The assault must be made as quickly as possible. The men must not be allowed to pause, event to take cover or reload. Without speed it will not succeed and the enemy will bring in reinforcements. www.272nd.org/ExtendedOrder/272_OpenOrderFormation.htmKlaus www.272nd.org
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Post by Jager.Drü on Apr 21, 2009 21:32:03 GMT -5
I see, good post Klaus,
I'm with Gerg Hamiltons FJR6. He explained it to us that they did advance spread out. MG in the middle with the GruppenFuher. I'll have to ask him cover this again.
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Post by herrgothic on Apr 21, 2009 23:38:01 GMT -5
Implementation though is very difficult. Available information in English on the topic is sparse and not well translated. People tend to look at the photos for these two manouvers and think they apply in places they do not. See you at Jump to Destiny. Klaus I see, good post Klaus, I'm with Gerg Hamiltons FJR6. He explained it to us that they did advance spread out. MG in the middle with the GruppenFuher. I'll have to ask him cover this again.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 31, 2015 18:07:23 GMT -5
Though an older post it is worth resurrecting and additionally worth a sticky. The thing about any and all theoretical field tactics they are worthless without considerable rehearsal and practice and seldom work exactly as laid out in the chaos that is close combat. This fact however does not render them useless however.
When this thread first cropped up on WW2 airsoft the vast majority of airsoft guns being used were full auto / unlimited ammo and this situation is rapidly changing where now we increasingly see period correct replicas with far far greater numbers of semi auto and "cock it everytime" weapons. This fact, renders the lone wolf, "army of one" airsoft camper less and less prevalent and the tactics discussed above increasingly essential to success.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Apr 2, 2015 22:00:37 GMT -5
Very true 2nd Bat, as we now have better rules for full auto use. And many more semi and bolt action weapons getting fielded. I was reading over the old posts and it is interesting that there is not much mention of limiting the weapons to semi mode. That is the key ingredient to all of this and is the only way historical tactics will even come close to be accurately executed on the airsoft battlefield. Mark and I are developing a new style of airsoft where orders will be issued to each commander periodically during a game by a official. The squad leaders will have no pryor knowledge of the orders which will decide the mission objective and military posture as well as ammo limits, respawn abilities, and what the teams fire mode would be during that particular phase of the game. Hopefully the not knowing part will help to create ambiance and the fog of war feel we are looking for. Most commonly the fire mode would be for one HMG or LMG everyone else would be in semi fire mode. Except for the squad leader if he/she had a SMG. Which would probably be hopped down to decrease its effective range. If sides were uneven a extra full auto LMG or smg could be added as needed. We are hoping that this new mode of play will make nessesary the use of period squad tactics by both teams. There by making it important for squad leaders and players to understand their role within the squad, And encourage teamwork and good communication. The days of the spray and pray lone wolf camper in ww2 airsoft are numbered, or gone as far as I am concerned for our games in the North East, that will simply not be allowed anymore. I feel we must do this to make ww2 airsoft distinct from modern airsoft and to give us a edge of realism and emersion. I realize some players may not like being told how to use their weapons or told where to go or what role they must play, but what are we doing when we play army? We are trying to simulate marshal activity and procedure the best we can. In the real army's of the day, and even of today, one would have no choice, but to follow orders and do their job. I think the average ww2 airsoft enthusiast wouldn't have much of a issue with that style of play, as what most of us crave is more realism in our games and some sort of job or role with in a team. At our next game, we will be rolling out this play style for its debut. Mark can chime in with any other pertinent details about this new style, since it is his brain child.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 2, 2015 22:38:08 GMT -5
Very very exciting news and one I can absolutely say with confidence will be a hit with 95% of you players. At the Losheim Gap events where I issue almost everything. The non airsofters had no idea what they WEREN't getting when they got bolt action or springer weapons and sub machine guns with no hop up. Full auto weapons were ISSUED as team assets and they were crewed on a rotational basis.
those already familiar with airsoft and kids that had AEGs were my only resisters. they quickly got won over when they saw how much more dynmic and fluid the action was. The dads were blown away seeing their sons do such a good job with leadership and strategy. The dads all collectively asked to have riflemen roles.
good luck with your plans.
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Post by insterburger on Apr 3, 2015 8:12:37 GMT -5
Jerry summed up the new model pretty well, I'm eager to try it in the field to work out kinks, which is why I'm so disappointed at the April event going south.
Truth be told, I agree with Jer that spray and pray games should be dead and buried in WWII airsoft, and that doing so will become a key differentiator for our hobby. For myself, I am not particularly interested in WWII-themed games that aren't tacticals, at least beyond their value as recruiting venues. To me they're just modern airsoft dressed in wool.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 3, 2015 14:24:29 GMT -5
One differentiator with all milsim airsoft (at least those few that are truly milsim). there is emphasis on low caps, SAWs, limited ammo, mission briefs and formal assigned missions, resupply and often there is time built in for training and rehersal. These airsoft events are few and far between but they do exist. MilSim West is an excellent example of this approach with their emphasis being East/ West RUSSIA NATO and they have quite strict uniform requirements as well. The Head Fred at MILSIM West is a young combat veteran RANGER who has a wonderful theatrical bent and really gets the value of emmersion and suspension of disbelief.
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Post by LT. Zach on Mar 4, 2016 3:24:24 GMT -5
Hey guys..... I know this is an older post but would like to give some advice in "tactical movements". No one in the airsoft field will be able to correctly use these tactics correctly just talking about and simply saying you do this, this, and this and think anyone is going to understand what your trying to say. This is why in blank fire reenactment we do training and a lot of it. Therefore if a situation presents itself and the commander yelled an order we would know exactly what to do...... Personally I think we should have training events (even if it was just once a year) and get people familiar with the tactics etc.
Remember this is what we blank fire Reenactors do and it should be no different for airsoft if you want a team that's unstoppable!
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 4, 2016 16:03:19 GMT -5
The trend toward more and more period correct weapons continues as does the trend for ever more authentic and emmersive events. Training and rehearsing formation shifts. Fire and maneuver, breaking contact, consolidating on an objective and deliberate actions is absolutely vital to its implementation as was mentioned several times throughout this thread.
Something that usually gets lost in all of this is that in REAL COMBAT Infantry actions were seldom fair fights. The unit tasked with offensive missions would typically outnumber the defensive force by at LEAST 3 to 1. With concentration at the precise point of attack even higher than that! If the defense had fortifications and obstacles or dominant terrain it would be even higher. Zug maneuvering by even the most practiced unit would quickly desintigrate into a typical airsoft stalemate.
An Airsoft commander tasked with offensive operations must be willing to break contact and reapproach their objective from a more advantages direction if stalemate resistance is met and the unit must be trained to do so before they become entangled such that withdrawal is tactically unfeasible.
For authentic tactics to be utilized in airsoft weapons must be more representative of the firepower of the time. Ammo should be authentically limited, Terrain selection for the event must allow for covered approach within airsoft range and unless a movement to contact, meeting engagement or similar non deliberate attack, sides or regens must be considerably lopsided.
A mantra from back in my Infantry days was: "A fair fight is just an indication of bad tactics" and "there is no easier discussion than tactics nor anything harder to execute."
We are a long way from executing airsoft potential for simulating close combat but we are moving ever closer.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Mar 5, 2016 1:21:38 GMT -5
A recurring theme of what happens at our airsoft games, at least in the NE, is that since the teams are usually pretty equal, there is never really enough to be able to do the "Napoleon 3 to 1." And no matter the formation, it usually ends up breaking down with everyone scattering for cover and than having the "stalemate."
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 5, 2016 1:46:53 GMT -5
Another issue with airsoft is that the ranges which typically occur well within 200 feet means a squad sized force if realistically spread out typically can't mutually support itself and a platoon (or zug) definitely can't. A bipoded MG and absolutely a tripod mounted machine gun unless very well positioned is too vulnerably exposed at airsoft ranges depriving the squad of that critical weapon. Plunging fire at maximum range from a covered position is about the only way the airsoft MG is viable and then only if full auto weapons are otherwise quite rare.
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