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Post by drizzt04 on Aug 28, 2012 14:30:02 GMT -5
Here is a thread to discuss blankfire guns.
Should they be allowed?
How do you feel about them?
After this last weekend, I just think it should be discussed. Please no insults, name calling, or generally putting anyone down. This is to have a real discussion about the pros and cons of having blankfire, and by extension, reenactors at events.
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Post by brownien on Aug 28, 2012 15:16:29 GMT -5
Personally, I think blankfire really added to the mood of the game. I personally hit the deck many times from hearing that shot ring out! My only dislike of the blankfire gameplay is that most of the airsoft guys treat the blankfire shots as dead accurate and as a one pop kill, as in not accounting for error/misses. For gameplay purposes, I think that at long ranges, say 150+ft. blankfire shots should be considered a 1 out of 2 hit when in the open and 1out of 4 or 5 if peeking behind cover. for closer ranges in the open would be one shot kill and if behind cover and peeking maybe 1 out of 2 or 3 for a hit. This way they would be treated as a airsoft sniper rifle (as there is the 25ft safety kill for blank fire anyway). This is the way I treated shots from the blankfire guns and Im not sure if I was one of the ones to be annoying and "not take my shots" but I can honestly say I was behind a tree when a shot rang out a thought it came from a completely different direction! Don't get me wrong, I loved the use of the blank guns in the game but they should be considered as a sniper type weapon and error of shots should be taken into consideration. Just my $0.02 PS this was also posted in response to the Falaise Pocket AAR
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ersatzjack2
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Post by ersatzjack2 on Aug 28, 2012 15:25:45 GMT -5
I read your comments on the Falaise AAR and while I and many other MOA members have traveled out East for events we have not been to one that blended airsoft and blank fire guns. How does that work? Can you shoot airsoft pb's at the blank fire soldier? How does the blank fire soldier kill an airsoft opponent? Or, are the blank burners just there to provide a bang and ambiance to the battle? That would probably be there best use but I don't think the blank burners would want to just waste ammo with no chance of affecting the battle.
At MOA events we have had many reenactors participate but they use airsoft guns. Other than the reenactors/airsofters that are part of the MOA, guest reenactors who have tried our airsoft games state that they enjoy them but after one battle we don't see them again. My theory for this is simple.... it's too taxing. It is easy to go to the living history events and bend down on one knee out in the open and not worry about actual cover and concealment. It's quite another thing to lay in cover while mosquitoes are nibbling on your ears because you're worried about giving up your position to someone just yards away. Do that for ten minutes in a battle and it's easy to understand why a lot of the reenactors don't return to play with us.
I've been to a few blank fire tacticals too and won't do them anymore because they are unrealistic and boring. That's just my preference and I realize that others say they are fun but absent field judges I don't see the allure. I do enjoy the public events and the play acting of those battles as it is for the crowd and that aspect of the blank fire hobby is a lot of fun.
If the blank burners are actually participating in your game and fighting with the airsoft opponents I would forsee problems with that. If I'm firing at you with a blank gun then I'm not really affected by ranges. I could shoot from across a football field or farther (if I have an open line of sight) and hope you see the flash. A guy with an airsoft MP40 can't fire that far. If that is the case then I imagine a lot of guys don't even know they are getting hit by blank fire. That doesn't sound fun for the guy with the blank fire weapon. So.... how does it work? I'm curious.
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Post by drizzt04 on Aug 28, 2012 16:05:02 GMT -5
The blankers try to participate the same as the airsofters. You can shoot them with bbs.
It is a learning process for both sides at the events, but people are quickly learning how to recognize when they are being fired at. Basically, if you see a "star" pattern when the rifle is fired, the shooter is aiming directly at you. If you see a tongue of flame, hes not. Pretty basic, and it is on the honor system.
I think it is good for reenactors to go out there for exactly the reasons you stated. There is a huge difference between cover and concealment, and reenactors who arent veterans shoudl leanr that difference. On the other hand, many reenactors are veterans, myself being one, and we know the difference very well, and can see many many instances of airsofters using techniques that just do not work in real combat. So even in ths area, knowledge can be passed both ways.
As for range, well if you want realism, a k98 is far outshooting a thompson anyway. So having a rifleman tag you from further than you can shoot is quite possible and happpened many times. No SMG is ever going to outdistance a rifle. And in the daytime, distance is reduced quite a bit simply because you cant see the flash anyway.
To just assume that reenactors are unwilling or unable to keep up with airsofters is just silly. I know many a blanker that will do just fine out on the airsoft field. It being too taxing is not the case. If you have been to reenactments, you know that we cover much more distance out there than your average airsoft field. Events such as GAP or Odessa cover huge expanses, at Dunbarton, you have to walk an hour just toget to the battlefield, fight all day, then walk an hour back. We are not lazy by any means.
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Post by SfcMigs on Aug 28, 2012 16:24:30 GMT -5
I read your comments on the Falaise AAR and while I and many other MOA members have traveled out East for events we have not been to one that blended airsoft and blank fire guns. How does that work? Can you shoot airsoft pb's at the blank fire soldier? How does the blank fire soldier kill an airsoft opponent? Or, are the blank burners just there to provide a bang and ambiance to the battle? That would probably be there best use but I don't think the blank burners would want to just waste ammo with no chance of affecting the battle. At MOA events we have had many reenactors participate but they use airsoft guns. Other than the reenactors/airsofters that are part of the MOA, guest reenactors who have tried our airsoft games state that they enjoy them but after one battle we don't see them again. My theory for this is simple.... it's too taxing. It is easy to go to the living history events and bend down on one knee out in the open and not worry about actual cover and concealment. It's quite another thing to lay in cover while mosquitoes are nibbling on your ears because you're worried about giving up your position to someone just yards away. Do that for ten minutes in a battle and it's easy to understand why a lot of the reenactors don't return to play with us. I've been to a few blank fire tacticals too and won't do them anymore because they are unrealistic and boring. That's just my preference and I realize that others say they are fun but absent field judges I don't see the allure. I do enjoy the public events and the play acting of those battles as it is for the crowd and that aspect of the blank fire hobby is a lot of fun. If the blank burners are actually participating in your game and fighting with the airsoft opponents I would forsee problems with that. If I'm firing at you with a blank gun then I'm not really affected by ranges. I could shoot from across a football field or farther (if I have an open line of sight) and hope you see the flash. A guy with an airsoft MP40 can't fire that far. If that is the case then I imagine a lot of guys don't even know they are getting hit by blank fire. That doesn't sound fun for the guy with the blank fire weapon. So.... how does it work? I'm curious. The Blank fire component was introduced at the Day of Days event I ran in June of 2011. They were a group of about a dozen or so Germans that I HIRED to add ambiance, props and tactical experience to our event. I felt it was a big success and really helped the event to this day still be the best one we've ever had. But my motivation was two fold as I had hoped that thru their experiences from the event and word of mouth throughout the blank fire community, they would be excited to try our hobby again and spread the word that our events are more than what they seemed to be perceived in the blank fire reenactor world. While we have had some blank fire players return, the numbers are lower than we had hoped for. I also would like the blank fire players who do attend, to play as airsofters or both. Not just blank fire. With that being said and to try and answer your question, the actual game play has been that blank fire players are targets and can be shot by other blank fire players or airsoft players. They are part of the game and should act accordingly. During the safety briefings, a BF player will give a demonstration fire, speak of the dangers and safety concerns and what to look for when taking a hit. We also have different distances for safety kills from a blank gun oppose to the airsoft guns. Now what needs to be done in my opinion is we need to tweak the rules and guidelines for blank fire going forward. The most common concern is the effective range between a airsoft gun and a blank fire gun. While most airsoft guns have an effective range of about 150 feet to achieve a kill, the blank fire range is obviously much greater. When playing airsoft, we all seem to know what a safe distance is as we advance/attack a position. For an airsoft player to accept a kill from a much greater distance that he has no chance to return effective fire from has seemed to frustrate some players. What we need is clear cut rules in place that will equal the playing field for everyone on the field. I understand that it can be frustrating for the blank fire players when they feel they have a "good kill" and the hit wasn't taken, but I would think that that scenario is also an issue at blank fire events as well. As airsofters, most have trouble telling where the shot came from, especially from 100 yards or more away. This is why I feel the distance for a legit kill should be within the range of an airsoft gun. This will equal the playing field and heighten the chance of the airsoft player to know and see the blank fire shot is at him. I also find that this component (blank fire) is somewhat ironic. As you all know, most of the paintball diehards don't like our hobby as we have to play on an honor system as their game leaves a mark. I know personally I love the game play and honesty at our events and the fact that BB's don't leave a mark is not a concern for us. Now we have the component of a kill with no projectile that requires even more honesty. I know our players have the character and honesty to make it work. We just need to tweak it a little. I still remember Kern1944 telling me after last years Day of Days that his unit of BF players found it very exciting to actually have projectiles coming at them and that they needed to take cover a lot more than what they were used to. It was this response and feedback that made me hopeful that we would open up and expose our hobby to more and more players. I still have hope for this and I am also hopeful that we can tweak our rules/guidelines that will be satisfactory for everyone involved. Cheers, Migs
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Post by tango on Aug 28, 2012 16:48:35 GMT -5
That is a good point about the rifles naturally outranging the SMGs.
Something else that I thought of is buying a 91/30 to shoot blanks with would be a cheaper and perhaps more skirmishable option than choosing one of the airsoft 91/30s currently on the market. Consider that an airsoft PPSh goes for $289-$400 depending on the brand, and an airsoft 91/30 goes for $230-$410 depending on the brand. With those prices in mind a $99 91/30 from Big 5 sounds like a better and better option to encourage rifle use at games. Of course there has to be a limit to the inclusion of blank fire somewhere, otherwise it's a tactical.
This might apply somewhat to US and German arms as well but I'm not really familiar with the prices or value of the weapons or their airsoft equivalents.
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Post by antidoc on Aug 28, 2012 20:02:04 GMT -5
I really like the idea of both bf reenactors and airsofters coming together in a single event. Regarding the distances of engagements maybe you guys should adopt some of your reenactors groups engagement rules. Like out here in California blank fire only goes about 100 feet or so anything beyond that we either ignore or just take cover. Also since ive been airsofting for about 7 years now and reenacting for 2, reenactors i would say are a little more hardcore than airsofters. While most airsoft events are only 1day and reenactments are all weekend and we camp in our zelts and all. Also dont confuse private reenactments and public living history events there usually run by two completely different type of reenactors.
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Post by aj czarkowski on Aug 28, 2012 20:38:02 GMT -5
I really like having airsoft blended with blankfire, as do all of my friends. It REALLY adds realism and seeing the muzzle flash makes it seem like your really taking lead ;D Plus the annoying sound of the AEGs isn't the only sound you hear at the fields anymore. It is sometimes hard to indentify if you've been hit but after a while you get the hang of it. Since there has been blankfire added I've personelly been taken out 4 times by them. It sometimes really scares the cr*p out of you when you first hear them just like it really should in a battle ;D I think it would also be pretty cool if there could be more artillary (bottle rockets, saturn batterys) shot off during the events, that was one of my favorite parts of this past event.
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ersatzjack2
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Post by ersatzjack2 on Aug 28, 2012 23:51:46 GMT -5
Well guys, thanks for the answer. I remember SfcMigs hiring the blank burners at that prior event and I figured they were being paid to provide the noise component missing in airsoft games. I give you credit for attempting to blend the two hobbies but I'm still skeptical about how it can be pulled off. I've been to blank fire tacticals and getting people to call their hits is iffy at best. That's why I became quickly disinterested. If I'm armed with an airsoft gun and crawling thru the bush expecting airsoft pellets I'm not going to be overly concerned with watching every little flash that I see. I'm sure the guys with the blank fire guns get frustrated when they aren't having the airsofters call out their hits.
Brownien made a good point about the chance for misses also. When I use my airsoft rifle (and a good one it is) I am pretty effective up to about 40 yards with it. From 40 to 60 yards I'm somewhat accurate. I can reach out even farther but accuracy drops. Even the closer ranges sometimes require several shots.
I haven't experienced this kind of blended game however it seems to have the potential for frustration on both sides of the fence.
Drizzt04 - I base my "taxing assumption" on the fact that I have never felt any exertion at any public battle or tactical that I've been to. They're sort of like a walk in the park. Playing WW2 airsoft for 8-10 hours in hot weather or snow or rain (all prior MOA events) is a totally different animal and while there are blankfire guys that are capable of it (and lots that aren't) I just don't think they like doing it. Since I haven't seen returning guests what else am I to think?
antidoc - I agree with you to a point. Reenactors are more hardcore in certain areas. They are capable of camping out more and it is something I would like to see WW2 airsofters do. But I believe the airsoft crowd is more willing to physically exhaust themselves in pursuit of the competition.
The concept of blank fire and airsoft as a blended hobby is a good one if the airsofters got more into the living history angle of things like period camping, marching, taking orders, etc. and blank fire guys got more into using airsoft guns and actually crawling around and tearing up their reproduction uniforms. I've ripped or torn my uniforms four times being out in the field playing airsoft. That doesn't happen to me at blank fire events.
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Post by SfcMigs on Aug 31, 2012 0:28:15 GMT -5
Well guys, thanks for the answer. I remember SfcMigs hiring the blank burners at that prior event and I figured they were being paid to provide the noise component missing in airsoft games. I give you credit for attempting to blend the two hobbies but I'm still skeptical about how it can be pulled off. I've been to blank fire tacticals and getting people to call their hits is iffy at best. That's why I became quickly disinterested. If I'm armed with an airsoft gun and crawling thru the bush expecting airsoft pellets I'm not going to be overly concerned with watching every little flash that I see. I'm sure the guys with the blank fire guns get frustrated when they aren't having the airsofters call out their hits. Brownien made a good point about the chance for misses also. When I use my airsoft rifle (and a good one it is) I am pretty effective up to about 40 yards with it. From 40 to 60 yards I'm somewhat accurate. I can reach out even farther but accuracy drops. Even the closer ranges sometimes require several shots. I haven't experienced this kind of blended game however it seems to have the potential for frustration on both sides of the fence. Drizzt04 - I base my "taxing assumption" on the fact that I have never felt any exertion at any public battle or tactical that I've been to. They're sort of like a walk in the park. Playing WW2 airsoft for 8-10 hours in hot weather or snow or rain (all prior MOA events) is a totally different animal and while there are blankfire guys that are capable of it (and lots that aren't) I just don't think they like doing it. Since I haven't seen returning guests what else am I to think? antidoc - I agree with you to a point. Reenactors are more hardcore in certain areas. They are capable of camping out more and it is something I would like to see WW2 airsofters do. But I believe the airsoft crowd is more willing to physically exhaust themselves in pursuit of the competition. The concept of blank fire and airsoft as a blended hobby is a good one if the airsofters got more into the living history angle of things like period camping, marching, taking orders, etc. and blank fire guys got more into using airsoft guns and actually crawling around and tearing up their reproduction uniforms. I've ripped or torn my uniforms four times being out in the field playing airsoft. That doesn't happen to me at blank fire events. I agree with you that the BF guys and Reenactors are more hard core when it comes to the impressions and camping, but I would like to say that most of our events since the Day of Days event in June 2011, have been events that are weekend events with Camping and even night missions. Cryonics has really stepped it up on the German side. He has brought an endless supply of props, guns, grenades, landmines to the events. He even brought fire works to the Bastogne event to simulate the German artillery barrage that would have made Gucci Fireworks proud. Any event that he is present for, really has a Reenactor feel to it. Personally speaking, I love the props and spot on impressions. I know most have really invested time and money stepping it up. This is what makes these events fun and separates them from the normal spray and play Sunday airsofters. We all seemed to enjoy and care how we play and look. This is why I think the BF aspect is a good thing. It just needs to be tweaked.
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sublime
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Post by sublime on Aug 31, 2012 12:02:33 GMT -5
I have been playing airsoft for over 4 years now and the Falaise pocket was the first event where I experienced the mix of blanks and airsoft. It was the most enjoyable event for me so far. The blanks really added a lot to the game for me and its because sound is a big part of any battle. It truly added realism that I hope will continue at GZ events.
I agree with Migs, it needs to be tweaked in order to avoid arguments and confusion. The last thing I want to see is reenacters and airsofters being isolated from each other due to misunderstandings in game play.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Sept 4, 2012 17:32:31 GMT -5
The challenges we,ve experienced with blended events (The last Jump to Destiny combined both) was a lack of clarity on expectations and inequality in terms of the mix of weapons per side. The germans had more bf weapons than airsoft and the us had few bf weapons. It never got ugly but it was at times uncomfortable. Everyone loved the ambiance and sound effects and the hope was that the airsofters would be more stealth oriented at long range while the bf guys would be more stealth oriented up close. I still believe this could be made to work. another problem BF guys seem to ignore is that if 10 guys are crossing a clearing and three guys in the treeline open up with bolt action rifles...who got lucky and who got the aimed shot? The randomness of incoming mail simply isnt possible when trajectories aren't part of the exchange.
I love airsoft inspite of its limitations and have no interest personally in bang bang games. Gave that up when I was around eight. I did lots and lots of blank fire in the army and some dodging of lethal projectiles as well. i have nothing against folks who enjoy the sounds, flash and wonderful smells of a BF game but for myself I find airsoft skirmishes far more authentic and exciting.
By no means does that suggest one is right and one is wrong. they are just different. In a perfect world I'd love to see airsoft guns with perhaps another 30 feet of accurate range, a louder report and a muzzle flash. then the players would complain about the increased need for more obvious safety equipment, somewhat more pain and the fact that it's harder to camp in an airsoft game.
it would be great for both hobbies if they made an effort to find some common ground but there is massive division WITHIN each group of hobbyists let alone what seperates the two.
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Post by drizzt04 on Sept 4, 2012 21:49:29 GMT -5
I find it interesting that you believe airsoft is more authentic than reenacting. Unless we load real rounds in or rifles, you cant get much more authentic than using the actual uniforms, vehicles, artillery, morters, and weapons of WW2.
Come to an event with 1500 guys in uniform fighting it out. You are in the woods with snow coming down, there is an MG team 10 ft away rocking on full auto, while a company sized American unit is fighting their way to you through the trees. You feel a vibration in the ground before you see the 2 shermans knocking down trees on their way to fire on your nest, and at the last minute a german panzer comes up from behind you to take them out instead. On the road 50 ft away, army jeeps and a greyhound are bringing reinforcements to the battle and they are answered by your halftrack with mounted mg's, and kubels pulling pak guns.
Just one moment of one battle that I have been to. Sorry, but airsoft doesnt compare in terms of authenticity and realism.
I dont know that reenactors are more "hardcore" than airsofters. Definitely more anal. Definitely more authentically and period correct. But, that isnt even true in all cases. I have seen plenty of airsoft impressions that are spot on, and have seen other kits progress substantially in the year that I have been involved. However, in reenacting, people that show up in half ass uniforms are asked to leave. Luckily, from what I have seen at GZA, the attendees try very hard to have good kits, but I do know there are units, one in particular that I can think of, that excell at promoting and selling a completely wrong ww2 german kit. We are talking east german, swiss, spanish, and modern gear mixed to try to create an illusion, and failing epically.
The reason reenactors dont come back? Simple. They dont take airsofters seriously. They believe that airsofters are nothing but a bunch of kids with a vietnam era helmet, or black trenchcoat, running around doing COD style spray and pray with no intentions of trying to be period correct in looks or tactics.
When the Battle of Bastogne trailer features two "Germans" wearing black cargo pants, one with a black modern trenchcoat, sporting modern battle vests with todays German flag, and party bands is the first thing you see, it doesnt really say much for WW2 airsofting. Add the m4, a chrome luger with a 10' barrel, shoulder lenght hair, and an american sniper wearing digital winter camo, you are not really putting out the image that you are a viable place for reenactors to hang out.
Again, at the events I have been to, this hasnt been the case. But for every event Migs or Brandon hosts, there are 4 that are like that trailer. I happen to enjoy airsoft. I am one of those lazy, non-working, as little effort as possible, kneel in the open, put zero effort in, reenactors that came to an airsoft event. And not only did I come back, I built an entire unit around the basis of doing both hobbies. And I have even managed to get a few of my lazy friends to join up. But if you seriously want to get more reenactors there, airsoft needs to continue to progress and build up its reputation as a WW2 event. It wont happen overnight. Reenacting has been around since the 70's. Those guys have put a lot of time into what they do, and fair or not, airsoft needs to prove itself to them.
My guys and I have been and continue to try to get reenactors out in the field. Is every one we get out there going to stay? Of course not. But in a short time, I have gotten a few to switch over. And there will be more, but I need all of you to help me help you. If there is going to be no support when they come out, it will never work. This event was Brandons first event, and halfway through he was asking me if he should leave because people didnt like him there. Brandon happens to have a ton of contacts, and he is in a unit that has a huge amount of weight in reenacting. He probably isnt a guy that should be alienated if airsoft is looking to bring reenactors into the fold. Luckily, the good far outweighed the bad, and he is still onboard and cant wait to come again.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Sept 4, 2012 22:39:15 GMT -5
I agree, bill! Many reenactors, especially on AHF which im a membe rof, dont take airsofting seriously! I ahve yet to get to a GZA game(i plan for the one in the fall) but have seen how accurate everyone is. They're always making fun of airsofters, when, ive sen some terrible blankfirers, too. I happen to do both(well, am starting blankfire with the 9thSS) and the advantage of airsoft is that physical fitness is promoted, while it is not in BF.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Sept 4, 2012 22:48:47 GMT -5
Airsoft is currently at the stage ww2 bf reenacting was in its first few decades and you are right only improved standards and effort will catch it up. With that said the main hurdle has been weapons variety and that is quickly becoming moot. There are events held with high standards, correct and numerous vehicles and the creation of emjersive atmosphere that rivals or exceeds most reenactment events. Sadly they are few and far between.
I for one experienced no joy...none whatsoever popping off blanks at one another. I woud have preferred to have thrown quarters at the opposition as it would have been cheaper and they would know who specifically was targeted. Again this is not intended to insult those who enjoy bf. God love them but just as friends who enjoy golf ill have no luck talking me into smacking around a little ball. Neither we nor the bf crowd expect to be able to talk the other into participating if the interest isnt there. I know bf folks who like airsoft and airsofters who like bf as well. If we are looking to attract more bf folks (and i continue to do what i can to encourage this). We have to find those folks open to try it and seek their help in improving our standards of appearance while we help them appreciate the standards of quality tactics. Sadly few airsofters apply legitimate tactics but those who do...in my opinion have a better platform for doing so with airsoft than blanks. The typical airsofter and even the typical ww2 airsofter is currently behind the level this hobby should have progressed to but i think we are finally at a critical cross roads where it will begin to mature rapidly in sophistication. At this point sadly im so old that the only roles i cant accurately depict is a displaced civilian!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2012 0:15:39 GMT -5
The message I hear in this discussion is blankfire/airsoft combos are new to most and thus has some suspicion about it. I've done blank fire reenactments for 25 years and airsoft for 10. they are both unique and have features the other doesn't. they do however mix nicely if your prepared for it. On the west coast we have always had Bf at our WWII events, but in managed quantities and under pretty clear rules. A situation that 2nd Bat describes essentially [with regards to side balance and number]. We have not had much issue with the combo but then out of 40 or so average participants usually about 20 of those are reenactors or have been to at least one BF event as well, so we may have an advantage with the easy acceptance. The major issue is balance. Don’t over balance one side with blanks the other AS. Consider only having your imbedded staff use BF who are 'reenactor' qualified and thus know not only how to use their BF's in a fight but have a managed expectation for hits]. Another consideration that helps us, is dropping the competition element. Run a scenario where its pretty clear which side is intended to win and see how well both sides 'win' or 'lose' you'll be shocked how it changes folks outlook and they will focus less on hit calling and a lot more on the experience of the event. It doesn't make the event less tactical or less violent, in fact I have found that without the tally counting on who won most focus on how 'good’ or 'real' the action was and count that as the victory. This is where the sound element of BF takes things to new heights. I have also typically had much more fun 'losing' well than 'winning' sloppily I've been to tons of Bf events and airsoft events, but the combined recipe rules the day. There is nothing like having a few Bf K98's crack open on an unsuspecting unit while we lay into them with an Airsoft Mg42 spraying the targets with BB's accompanied by the retort of Bf fire. You get both great tastes in one bite. The Jump to Destiny events had this in spades as well and was a model we borrowed our inspiration from[ still hoping they come back ]. To this day I have never been to a more immersive, atmospheric event that 'took me to another place'. I had the benifit of seeing the event from both sides as well: German FJ one year British Para the next. Unbeatable! AS events are more typically like a football game while BF events can get pretty stale pretty fast add the fact that nothing is flying through the air creates some invulnerable Audie Murphy heroics of the most laughable kind. Both have their strengths for sure, but they needn't be considered independent. Keep at it, refine the rules and make those very clear to participants prior to the event. Walk the reenactors through airsoft and walk the AS folks through what Bf hit rules are. while both sides need some work on their respective 'games' all things being truthful I have seen some really bad impressions at Bf events too and suffered through zeppelin shaped ‘soldiers’ talking crap about others 'farbiness' as well as some pretty bad tactical antics [and yes I get it reenacting isn’t about powder burning, I hear ya. But there’s only so many nights sleeping in a hole with a blanket before the luster of that is long gone]. meanwhile of course the AS events tend to reflect too strong a competition over 'experience' outlook , need work on overall impressions, and need to get a stronger commitment from the player base. Its like pulling teeth to get AS people to events, something BF events have strongly covered through well established unit structures as someone in this thread already noted. You would be REALLY well served looking at the reenactor community for quality attendee's [thats good impressions AND attitudes]. Anyway run the event you want to run, but don’t give up on something like this as its an almost ideal situation if you can get the balance right. Being clear with participants prior to an events start usually covers about 80% of the ground. TG THE REGIMENT
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ersatzjack2
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"We can still win this thing, once the secret weapons arrive."
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Post by ersatzjack2 on Sept 5, 2012 23:09:56 GMT -5
This discussion still isn't complete. It's clear that the airsofters like the noise that the blank guns provide and it's clear that the blank burners like feeling really threatened by actual fire. What's missing are comments from reenactors who have attended and used their blank fire guns. Do they feel that they are competitive? Are they happy with the play of the airsoft opponents and do the airsofters call out their hits, etc. If they aren't returning is it because of game play or do they feel the uniform standards are not up to reenacting standards.
I'm glad that you guys out East and in the West are willing to try this thing and "tweak it" until it either works or doesn't work.
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Post by drizzt04 on Sept 6, 2012 3:22:49 GMT -5
Neither of my powder burners are on this board. One is pc illiterate, the other is just not for whatever reason. He might not even know about it honestly. I will have to ask him tomorrow.
But, I do know what they tell me, and a couple of other guys have told me.
One is a veteran paintballer like myself. So he is extremely comfortable with having projectiles inbound.
The others are strictly reenactment men, except for the events they have been to at GZA.
All have said they had a great time. That having rounds coming downrange added a new respect for what the soldiers went through. That it taught valuable lessons about cover vs concealment. And this from a few that are military vets.
All were pleasantly surprised by how well the impressions were. That although they saw mistakes or wrong items, at least it showed that you guys are trying to be authentic.
And they also said you all take hits very well. Much better than most allied reenactors quite honestly.
At the first Day of Days, responses were mixed. Some loved it, others didnt.
But in the reenacting world, you have alot of guys that do it to honor the troops, or to keep history alive. That is why it is called reenacting. They are trying to recreate everything from the battles to the way troops lived, dressed, acted, ate, and survived the war. Airsoft is more along the lines of lets get together and have a good time shooting at our friends. it is correct that there will always be guys that prefer one over the other, and do not want anything to do with either. On the other hand, there are thousands of reenactors and airsofters that could easily want to do both. I personally know of another unit, (Wiking SS), that is gearing up to be both hobbies. Hopefully they will show up soon.
I personally think that WW2 airsoft can attract alot more attendees if a few things are tweaked a little. Mostly along the lines of living situations and period correctness. Quite honestly, I have yet to have a real immersive event. And not particularly because of the gunfire or sounds of an airsoft gun. It is just the general mood of the game.
JP is great for bringing tents, equipment, props, etc to a game. But among all that great, there are the soda bottles and cans, modern food wrappers, and guys in non period clothes when the battle is not on. It is in the make up of the people in attendance. not in the sense that each person is no good, but in the fact that everyone is an individual. Reenacting is all about the unit. Its about everyone being in a group that is organized, has a chain of command, works together, lives together, and acts together. When a reenacting unit comes out, they act like a military unit. Lone wolves are not allowed to attend just about every event. That is what provides ambiance, not the BF guns. It is just a different way of carrying themselves.
Airsoft can easily become that way. All it would take is an effort to build quality units, and tighten up standards a little. Pay attention to the details. How many germans have a soldbuch? If you are asked for papers, do you have them? Can you understand or give commands in German? Do you wear your wedding band on the left or right hand? Do you drink out of a tin cup or a pepsi can? Do you sit in the field to eat lunch, or go to your car in the parking lot? Do you have a leader and follow orders, or do you just run around shooting bbs in the air?
Its the little things that will determine how seriously you are taken, or if you are considered a farb. This website is a good community, filled with guys that seem to want the full immersion. You are the guys that determine the fate of WW2 airsoft. And right here, right now is the time for you all to decide just what it is you want to do with this.
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Post by drizzt04 on Sept 6, 2012 3:39:38 GMT -5
Just happened to notice this thread when I backed out of here.
Topic: UNIT REQUIREMENTS, RANK, & STRUCTURE
Out of curiousity, why is this not being enforced? Sounded like a good idea.
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Post by jettalewis on Sept 6, 2012 13:31:21 GMT -5
To me it sounds as if the ppl who are doing blank fire and having everything period correct are a lot like the UK WW2 airsoft. I think, over there, they have to be affiliated with some airsoft group to even be able to buy an airsoft gun. I just don't want that much control over my hobby. It would be really nice if an airsoft gun would make a great bang when fired and it would be nice if everyone wore the exact same outfit with the exact same thread count, but at the end of the day it's nice to be able to sit back with a can of coke, or whatever. Can't we just have a good time?
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Post by aj czarkowski on Sept 6, 2012 16:53:00 GMT -5
To me it sounds as if the ppl who are doing blank fire and having everything period correct are a lot like the UK WW2 airsoft. I think, over there, they have to be affiliated with some airsoft group to even be able to buy an airsoft gun. I just don't want that much control over my hobby. It would be really nice if an airsoft gun would make a great bang when fired and it would be nice if everyone wore the exact same outfit with the exact same thread count, but at the end of the day it's nice to be able to sit back with a can of coke, or whatever. Can't we just have a good time? Now that sounds good to me. If I was able to, sure I'd get everything 100% correct. But not me, and not any of my friends have the time or money. And like you said, I don't think any of us want that much control over our hobby. As for the units, I also agree. I actually think it would make alot of people leave our hobby... If they only have three or four friends who are into it (Like I do) we can't form our own unit, and none of us want to join one (waaaay too strict). And anyway I really wouldn't want to join a unit where I hardly know anyone, not trying to sound like a jerk. It's not worth it when we are 85% correct and it's not good enough, and we're turned away because we're not 100% spot on.
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Post by brownien on Sept 6, 2012 17:28:51 GMT -5
Instead of the units like in blankfire, I would like to see an area on the forum where people with allied impressions can simply post a single reply stating, in a uniform format, their impression type (ie airborne, regular gi), rank, weapons and any other specialties (ie radio operator, medic). Same thing for the Axis players. It would be more of a "check in" type of thread without commenting, just a single post per perrson that would be updated upon changes in impression. (partly because I see so many "seargents" running around and few pfc's)
Instead of Individual units for separate areas, possibly put one under each regional events thread, so theres an overall headcount for each region.
(P.s. sorry if this this was a bit off topic)
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Sept 11, 2012 14:35:19 GMT -5
To me it sounds as if the ppl who are doing blank fire and having everything period correct are a lot like the UK WW2 airsoft. I think, over there, they have to be affiliated with some airsoft group to even be able to buy an airsoft gun. I just don't want that much control over my hobby. It would be really nice if an airsoft gun would make a great bang when fired and it would be nice if everyone wore the exact same outfit with the exact same thread count, but at the end of the day it's nice to be able to sit back with a can of coke, or whatever. Can't we just have a good time? Now that sounds good to me. If I was able to, sure I'd get everything 100% correct. But not me, and not any of my friends have the time or money. And like you said, I don't think any of us want that much control over our hobby. As for the units, I also agree. I actually think it would make alot of people leave our hobby... If they only have three or four friends who are into it (Like I do) we can't form our own unit, and none of us want to join one (waaaay too strict). And anyway I really wouldn't want to join a unit where I hardly know anyone, not trying to sound like a jerk. It's not worth it when we are 85% correct and it's not good enough, and we're turned away because we're not 100% spot on. If you lack money, look for second hand stuff or sales. Onf acebook, there's a group called "civil war and wwii swap" which is great. Wehrmachtawards is where I bought my new LB tunic with all insig for $150, unworn, and my SMW parka from ATF for $140 during a sale. You just have to get lucky...
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Post by SfcMigs on Sept 13, 2012 14:27:15 GMT -5
Well this has taken on a whole new life! We started off with the debate about mixing BF into our events and making it work for everyone to full blown immersions and impression requirements.
While I truly respect every ones opinion here, the reality of WW2 Airsoft here in this part of the world is we have a nice group of regulars who seem to enjoy each others company and have some fun with our events. We do seem to get new players sprinkled in here and there, but for the most part we have a core group of players from both sides that attend the events and do a pretty good job with their game play, respect for each other and have acceptable impressions.
In my opinion (and compared to other videos/examples I've seen), most who attend do a pretty good job with their impressions. There are some who cut corners, or get things incorrect. But for the most part, the impressions are pretty good. We don't allow non period guns and there is a level of cooperation with players borrowing items from one another to make their kits work. Over the past year or so, I've seen the level of kits (especially on the German side) step up significantly. From JP and all his equipment props etc, to the FG guys and everything they bring, I think it's outstanding. True we don't all step into 1944 once we enter the AO, and it would add a lot of we did, but that's not what the events are about. They are not reenacting events.
So to get back to the main topic at hand, BF does add nice effects to our events that most seem to enjoy. We will tweak with the rules of engagement at the next event and hopefully come up with rules that will be clear and suffice for all.
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Post by Schmozilla on Sept 13, 2012 14:31:13 GMT -5
To be Honest, I Love the fact of including blank fire, they really do add that little bit of extra realism to make a event successful. once i'm 18 i'm gettin' some blank guns
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Post by jettalewis on Sept 13, 2012 20:18:51 GMT -5
So to get back to the main topic at hand, BF does add nice effects to our events that most seem to enjoy. We will tweak with the rules of engagement at the next event and hopefully come up with rules that will be clear and suffice for all. Thats just the point. The UK has rules out the kazoo and I don't see that they have a better time than we do. The minutea of the exact crossing point for a pair of suspenders. The exact correct pair of underwear. This stuff would not concern me in the least and I think that if this were enforced to the point that people would be asked to leave if they are not exactly correct would run people off to the point that this would leave even fewer people showing up. I think thats my point OK, OK. Sorry. I think BF guns should be allowed. Just an opinion.
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Post by cryonics on Sept 25, 2012 12:52:10 GMT -5
Personally I have truly enjoyed the presence of blank fire attendees at our events. It truly adds a level of realism and immersion that Airsoft guns cannot offer. I had the opportunity to use a blank fire gun at a recent event courtesy of Bill and Jeff and it was a blast. To my surprise the Airsoft guys actually did call their hits when I aimed the k98 in their direction and fired. I was amazed at the loudness of these guns and how much it impacted your ears when you fired one. I sure feel for those guys in the real war that must have come out deaf when returning home. It is my hope that the BF guys will continue to attend as it adds a level of realism both on the impression side and sound effect side that we all strive for at these events. I know that at the events I attended the rules were clearly stated as to what consisted a kill from a blank fire gun and confusion seemed very minimal. Keep them BF guns coming guys
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Post by ketch on Oct 1, 2012 21:58:28 GMT -5
Coming into this discussion late, but I thought I'd add my 2 cents. 2nd Bat and Paladin both mentioned this, but it should be explicit. The real dividing line between the hobbies is the objective of each is very different. Reenacting is about recreating an environment, "touching the ghost," so to speak, trying to make is as much like WWII as possible. That is why appearance is so important. Winning and losing is not important, as long as you win or lose like a Ally or a German, whichever side you're on. Airsoft is more competitive. You can register hits, so that determines the outcome. WWII may be the theme, but the focus is on winning. BF may add a lot of atmosphere to an event, but unless you can get substantial numbers of people from both hobbies to give up most their main desire we'll never really blend the hobby. Reenactors will have to compete and surrender some authenticity, and airsofters will have to create atmosphere and not worry about winning or losing. And, no matter how authentic, or correct, or well put together your airsoft kit is, airsoft will always have one huge strike against it for authencity: eyepro.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 2, 2012 0:30:31 GMT -5
our local style of historical airsoft whether Vietnam or WW2 have always been more about emmersion and atmosphere than "winning" although I believe within the airsoft world this is unusual. our campsites, props, vehicles and impressions though not perfect rival anything youd see at a typical bf event.
i have never concerned myself with winning as much as I have about an authentic feel and creating "moments". paladins events, Mercys events and the events put on by the HMSG group and Battlesim strive for the most part to accomlish that as well. Neither community (Airsoft or BF) are universal in their approach and both of our communities are challenged with coming up with events that satisfy the expectations and fantasies of participants whose perspectives and wishes are as unique as they are.
im sure there are BF events that really strive for authentic tacticals but ive never heard of any that do as good a job in that regard as the event sponsors I just mentioned. with staffs composed of mostly combat arms veterans who have been n harms way they flow and build quite relistically. few airsofters or BF players would play along to the degree neccessary to make these work but those who do seem to have a great time.
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Post by ketch on Oct 2, 2012 16:17:57 GMT -5
There are a few BF tacticals that meet that mark. Not all of them, but a few.
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