2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 18, 2014 13:28:50 GMT -5
Many many decades ago I did tabletop wargaming. I had assumed with the growth of computer gaming it had died off long ago but apparently that is not the case as it is alive and well. I used the 289th scale micro armor and had (and still have) a rediculous collection of WW2 to modern armor collection. Since I had a background that included war gaming, before going in the Army following Vietnam the Army again concerned itself with Northern Europe the Middle East and conventional conflics. They got me involved in working on tabletop wargaming for use by the Army. They had no budget for actual manuevers so they conducted what they called "EWTs". Exercises Without Troops! My boss at the time was a fellow Huba Vass De Czega who was a major at the time (He ended up as the primary author of the armies LAND SEA and Air Doctrine and was one of the "jedi nights" from the first Gulf War.) Our overall boss at the time was H. Norman Schwartzkopf who took an avid interest in the EWTs
In the course of the game development much data with regard to WW2 and Korean after action reports and probabilities was available to me and I still have those resources which were classified at the time. The studies contradicted greatly that which was incorporated into most tabletop wargames which were clumsy and tedious at best and frankly just plain wrong in most cases. I dug out my old collection and terrain tables and thoroughly enjoyed myself looking through everything
Anyone else of like mind? I squandered much of my youth on such things but have no regrets.
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Post by volkssturm on Apr 18, 2014 16:43:40 GMT -5
I dabbled a little bit in my college days. When the personal computer arrived I toyed with the idea of programming a data base that would work with a boardgame, but never got very far with it.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Apr 18, 2014 17:11:22 GMT -5
I used to do tons, would love to get back into it. I mainly did 1/87 and 1/72 scale though. I do have some brit. desert micro armor things.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 18, 2014 18:29:49 GMT -5
I find for WW2 the smallest scale you can tolerate with regard to acceptable detail the better as the engagement ranges for 20th century weapons was so great that otherwise you end up with a requirement for massive terrain boards. Even with micro armor you have to typically abbreviate ranges which gets distracting if you do it too much.
Like Volks I thought programming a computer to aid in outcomes would be cool. i used exclusively percentage dice based on Army (then classified) data and clear overlays which sped up resolutions to keep the events going. In the EWTs we had actual unit staffs set up their field TOCs and make decisions by radio and field phone in accordance to what was happening on the board so the pace had to be in sync with actual field events. We had sound effects for the SITREPS so if they were supposedly calling in while under fire there were battle sounds.
These we battalion and Brigade level EWTs with Company Commanders and their RTOs serving as players on the actual game board. The Army placed sizeable orders for pieces from GHQ which was a resource I made them aware of. Initially they used my pieces! Pior to that they just had plastic markers and oversized field maps.which was not nearly as cool.
It would be cool of course to replicate such things but this could only be done in a tournament type setting
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ScottCollins
Private 1st Class
A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both.
Posts: 548
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Post by ScottCollins on Apr 18, 2014 20:09:50 GMT -5
I would've but my problem is that A.) I have so many other hobbies that use up most of my money and B.) I would probably have no one to play it with. (And just so we're clear, you mean games like Flames of War, not Axis and Allies right?)
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 18, 2014 23:12:05 GMT -5
Not familiar with either of them but table top wargaming with minatures. One of the appeals vs airsoft is you can replicate a pretty large scale engagement with two to six guys moving around the armies. Its sounds incredibly sophomoric I know but it was actually a lot of fun. I always envisioned combining it with impressions and period radios, sound effects etc. Other then when in the Army I never managed to pull something like that off.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 19, 2014 18:09:47 GMT -5
Dug out the old rule sets and was reminded how much, thought, discussions and handwringing went into their development. Alway walking a fine line between playability and factoring in realistic probabilities. everyones level of tolerance on such things were different so it made for fascinting interaction. Because the Armys interest wa in training and team building the rulesets developed were surprisingly more fun and fast paced then any of the recreational rulesets I've seen.
Huba Wass De Czega I noticed (I googled him) ended up making General. One of the finest officers I ever worked for. H Norman wasn't bad either!
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 25, 2014 13:49:04 GMT -5
In digging through my stuff I found about 20 complete rules set booklets and supporting material. At one time these were sold at various gaming stores and militaria shops. way back in the early days of tabletop wargaming). They include the complete gameplay rules. A lot of historical background and details from the Army research, tables of probability for game play resolution. (visibility, movement, indirect fire resolution, tank to tank, tank vs Infantry, Infantry vs tanks, infantry to Infantry rules. Along with tips on map reading, building scenarios, communications even a little on tactics.). these were pretty extensive resources and I didn't realize I still had so many of them. Rather then throw them out if anyone would like one just ask and if you pay postage I'll send you out a set.
the only thing you would need to actually play a game are unit markers (which can be creted from cardborad or plastic) miniatures and a set of 20 sided percentage dice. (probably available at gaming stores or online) All of the resolution tables are expressed as a percentage likelihood of success. The 20 sided dice are numbered 9-0 twice so between the two dice you have a 1 in 100 likelihood of any given numer turning up and thus a 25% likelihood of rolling number higher then 75. An example of the resolution tables which sound amazingly complex but are actually quite straight forward shows that an early war medium tank had a 28% likelihood of hitting an enemy tank at 1000 meters and progressively higher likelihood as the range decreases. once hit two outcomes are determined, disabled, (can't move but can still shoot) or destroyed.
If nothing else the booklets have lots of informative subject matter. if you want me to send you off a set just PM me. The material was copyrighted by me in 1980 and over the years I saw a lot of the gameflow concepts and even resolution tables copied by other games (which I took as a compliment rather then an irritation). lots of pictures of the miniatures during game play situations and photographs from the archives.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 25, 2014 18:07:43 GMT -5
In response to PMs if you want me to send a set of the materials just PM me with your address. Shipping is going to run about $4.00
Nice to see so much interest.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 12, 2014 13:32:50 GMT -5
I have a few of these rule sets left if anyone else are interested. They retailed back in the day for $18.95 but send me $4.00 for shipping and I send them off to you. Just PM me with your contact info and Ill get them sent off. To play you'll need some micro armor and will have to source some percentage dice (two, 20 sided dice) which you can find at hobby stores or gaming stores. There are also believe it or not 100 sided percentage dice although I dont like them as well.
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