shiftysgarand
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Post by shiftysgarand on May 5, 2014 19:54:41 GMT -5
Since the other thread has kind of wandered off topic, I think we need a new thread to post ideas about props (foam bunkers, etc.) specifically. The things I think we need are 1. Buildings, destroyed and standing 2. Hedgerows 3. Bunkers 4. Destroyed vehicles.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 6, 2014 0:45:14 GMT -5
Hedgerows are not something I see anyone pulling off with artificial props. What could reasonably be done is to rent a cat for weekend and scrape two to three foot tall berms leaving them wide enough that poplar trees could spring up. These trees grow like weeds and will quickly replicate bogage country on a miniature scale perfect for airsoft. This would be especially effective on land which already has foliage seperation as windbreaks. For airsoft, patchworks segments of 75 to 200 feet in varied shapes would be perfect for airsoft. This would also facilitate a lot of playable terrain on a fairly small venue. Small patches of woods and a reasonably authentic cluster of blown up structures and we'd have a cool playground.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on May 6, 2014 8:27:34 GMT -5
Over the years we have learned a few things that work and a few things that do not work. Let me only discuss field props that work well.
Sandbags:
Fill plastic trash bags with semi-fine saw dust. Seal the bag! Place plastic bag in burlap bag. These light weight sandbags are great for any dedicated WW2AA prop! You can literally use these for dozens upon dozens of props. In the past we have used Sandbags for building mortar pits, fake artillery gun positions covered with camouflage netting and a “gun barrel” sticking out.
BARB Wire:
You can purchase garland barb wire on the internet or make it yourself relatively cheaply. It can be re-used and is perfectly safe. There are all sorts of BARB wire traps, barricades and etc. you can make from pictures of actually barriers from WWII. Many of these are cheap and easy to do with this BARB wire Garland!
Light Pill Box:
A pill box is extremely easy to build from ply wood, 2X4’s, a couple gallons of paint and some sand. All you need to do it build the frame out of 2X4’s and cover the interior and exterior with plywood. Next you prime the wood. Then you use grey paint mixed with sand to give the entire thing a concrete look. Each pillbox costs roughly $300 bucks to make properly.
Log bunkers:
Log bunkers are very easy to make with logs and rope. You only need a chainsaw, a few guys and a tape measure! Making Log bunkers is a great idea if your field has a lot of underbrush and too many trees. Cut some down, clear the ones that have fallen and put them to good use!!!
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Post by ssgjoe on May 6, 2014 9:03:06 GMT -5
Some underground tunnels would be cool.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 6, 2014 12:44:39 GMT -5
Tunnels are cool but seldom actually see much use given the effort they require and effort to maintain. To be safe they have to have reinforced sides and strong enough cover overhead to insure they wont collapse. They often fill with water and are smelly nasty unpleasant places to be. We had an elaborate tunnel complex for a Nam event and players threw in smoke when an enemy soldier was suspected of occupying it. Dumb dumb dumb as it literally almost killed the poor kid.
I would really recommend against tunnels. Love the idea of the nicely finished bunkers. A thought I had in that regard but never acted on is if the side walls are slanted slightly inward on all sides (like a stubby unfinished pyramid). These bunkers could be stacked for storage and transport and frankly would look more authentic then a plain square walled bunker.
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stuka
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Post by stuka on May 6, 2014 13:00:20 GMT -5
trenches and foxholes are simple enough, no need to go underground and since i personally live in florida can't really dig much more then 6 or so feet haha
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on May 6, 2014 13:09:50 GMT -5
I agree with 2nd Bat about both the Tunnels and the Bunkers. Although, Square bunkers were in fact used, but not as much as other types.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 6, 2014 13:13:04 GMT -5
Some underground tunnels would be cool. Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk For WW2, other than some eastern front scenarios, the only Westfront scenario involving tunnels wouild be some fictitious pseudo-Niedersachswerfen or Luftschutz-Stollen scenario, which would hardly be realistic. I think bunker sis a better bet.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on May 6, 2014 13:35:13 GMT -5
On the topic of destroyed buildings. I've given this a lot of thought over the years. I feel the easiest and most believable way I can come up with to do this is thus:
Build a fake foundation using stones around the field. Make sure to leave room for a doorway or two. Then use torn apart pallet wood and pile it in the middle of this fictitious foundation. Lastly, have a work party gather a bunch of underbrush for a large fire. Burn the brush in a controlled and safe pit! This will clear a bunch of dead wood and underbrush from the field and will also help with the next part of your bombed out building.
Once the fire is out and cool. Shovel the ashes and etc. into a wheel barrel and dump on the wood you already piled on the fake foundation. This makes it look like there was a fire and the building collapsed into its foundation. If you can burn just a few pieces of the pallet wood and put it out so that some ends are charred. That would look good too!
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 6, 2014 17:34:30 GMT -5
The bunker looks fabulous and you are correct many bunkers were essentially block houses. My angled suggestion was also done and again my recomendation was mostly to facilitate storage and hauling. Another thought on structures or large props. For theatrical sets they use thin support wood such as 1x1s but all corners for door areas, windows, tops and bottoms of walls etc are reinforced and held in place with a small triangular piece of thin wood. These triangles are all uniformly made and the screw holes in the 1x 1s are all uniformly spaced with the same identical tapered screws. This is done to simplify and dramatically speed up assembly. The walls are amazingly often fabrick that is patterned painted and stretched such that it is very convincing and remarkably light weight. Bricks or stone work for example are created with sponges dabbed onto your base or painted foam panels. Much of this material can be acquired as scrap and repurposed. If there is a local theatrical production find out what they do with the set material at the end of the run. Often (though not always) they throw it all out.
Rubble is a critical part of urban warfare but is generally quite hazardous when real. Rubble can be created with scrap blocks of foam or scrap blocks of 2x4s from a construction site
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Post by ssgjoe on May 6, 2014 19:07:53 GMT -5
Dig some craters too. My suggestion for tunnels was more to connect bunkers and pillboxes.
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Post by volkssturm on May 6, 2014 20:31:43 GMT -5
A few years back a guy here built a portable "bunker". He used inch or inch and a half PVC pipe to make a rectangular frame, then covered it with tarps with gun slits and a door cut into them. Everything was held together with cable ties and duct tape, so the whole thing could be taken apart quickly and packed up. He used a brown tarp, but it could have been painted. BB impacts made kind of a hellacious sound inside it.
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Post by ssgjoe on May 10, 2014 16:35:48 GMT -5
We could also make several small houses to use as small farm houses. Make it out of plywood and 2x4s, then construct it so it can be taken apart also. And you don't need to make the houses too big. Just say they're old abandoned houses
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Post by patrickl29th on May 10, 2014 17:21:35 GMT -5
If we were going to "Make" bunkers, they should be made from plywood. I would think foam would get damaged in the rain...
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Post by patrickl29th on May 10, 2014 17:26:33 GMT -5
Also the Germans really didn't have random bunkers in the middle of the woods. I believe we should be making trenches with shovels/pickaxes instead of bunkers.
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Post by volkssturm on May 10, 2014 19:06:05 GMT -5
From the Wiki article on the Siegfried Line:
"The Siegfried Line was a defence system stretching more than 630 km (390 mi) with more than 18,000 bunkers, tunnels and tank traps. It went from Kleve on the border with the Netherlands, along the western border of the old German Empire as far as the town of Weil am Rhein on the border to Switzerland. More with Nazi propaganda in mind than for any strategic reason, Adolf Hitler planned the line from 1936 and had it built between 1938 and 1940."
I suspect that some of the bunkers must have been built in the woods, because there's a lot of woods in Germany. But your point is valid. Bunkers would not have been stand-alone items. They'd be integrated into a mutually supporting system of fighting positions, covering obstacles, bridges etc.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 10, 2014 19:30:42 GMT -5
Indeed bunkers and fortifications were confronted throughout the battlefields in the Pacific, North Africa, Western Europe the Meditteranean etc. They were most commonly concentrated at formalized defensive barriers like the Atlantic Wall or Siegfried line but were also established at logical choke points and key terrain. Trench lines, fox holes and shallow pits were the most common fortifications confronted (foxholes incidently were seldom designed as fighting positions but rather as defense from artillery)
Most events do not provide adequate time for players to create authentic fighting positions and lets be honest few players would have interest in spending the time, and energy required to do so. I have found that if you get some positions started before hand with a backhoe, where the hard labor is complete, players actually enjoy doing the detail work making them their own. (placement of sandbags, camouflage etc.)
Ready assemble, portable bunkers provide ambiance and flexibility and foam is actually quite resilient to the elements. After 14 years foam silouettes I used for target practice and have left out only recently deteriorated (in spite of being shot to begeebers) only recently were gathered up and thrown out. Plywood covered in a thin film of foam and painted would probably hold up much better then just plywood.
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Post by patrickl29th on May 10, 2014 21:07:26 GMT -5
I just think if we were going to make anything it should be small buildings or trenches
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Post by ssgjoe on May 10, 2014 21:16:57 GMT -5
I like buildings. It adds kinda the atmosphere of the war more than bunkers and pillboxes would in my opinion.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 10, 2014 21:23:27 GMT -5
Trenches are hard to build at home between events and then transport to the venue wherever it may be. Lightweight, pre filled sandbags are probably the most versatile prop. We also built a pretty cool PAK 40 ATgun which served as a handy objective and looked cool. Helmet and Schmitty made it. Probably $250.00 in materials with the wheels, hardware and paint. Even with it designed to be taken apart and transfered to assorted locations eventually transporting it got to be a hassle and it just got left at playfield where it no doubt has succumed to the elements.
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Post by ssgjoe on May 10, 2014 22:31:46 GMT -5
Yeah! A battery of field artillery pieces or an AA gun emplacement would make an awesome objective!
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 11, 2014 17:36:10 GMT -5
John, I thought this was on a dedicated field. So, why and how on earth would you move trenches, and why would you need to!?
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 11, 2014 19:52:42 GMT -5
I have done events where we rented a backhoe and scoop loader for the weekend before and created zig zag trenches, shell holes and fighting positions so I am a big advocate of it but keep in mind that when you do so those fortifications become fixed locations (as do permanently installed structures) which does over time make your field predictable and stale. I am a fan of creating props that can within reason be moved and installed elsewhere on your field to change things up from time to time.
Buildings can be created to do so as can bunkers, dragons teeth, wire obstacle etc.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on May 11, 2014 20:25:04 GMT -5
It seems that making moveable buildings is more hassle than its worth. Why not just get a piece of land, build on it, and do 2 events a year. for other events, just rent out other land?
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Post by ssgjoe on May 11, 2014 21:13:17 GMT -5
I think it would work to make kill houses like they do at modern fields, but make it so it can be easily assembled and disassembled. Then paint it to make it look a little better. If you take a day before the game to set up obstacles, then it shouldn't be too hard to put up a few buildings.
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Post by volkssturm on May 12, 2014 10:36:50 GMT -5
Just a little nostalgia here. My grandparents were chicken farmers back before the big factory farms took over. The chicken houses were little sheds, maybe 10x15, and they were built on skids. I remember as a little kid watching my father hook his pickup truck to a couple houses and dragging them across the field to our backyard. Something like that would be pretty ideal.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on May 12, 2014 11:39:50 GMT -5
That is an interesting thought. Being able to periodically shuffle things around adds greatly to the fields dynamics. Buildings are a cool field prop and my only desire here is that an effort be extended to create a more authentic theatrical effect with the appearance. By the nature of our hobby we are emmersive minded and pallets just don't do it. In europe buildings were a huge factor in combat as villages were sprinkled throughout most areas of contention with roads and pathes leading to and from. They were frequently made of stone with basements hence provided natural choke points and defensive positions. WW2 soldiers became very adept at fighting in built up areas and success was often measured in the capture of small villages where control often changed hands several times in 24 hours. Just rearranging the configuration of a cluster of four or five huts even in the same general location can change it to "a new" village.
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Post by ssgjoe on May 12, 2014 12:59:31 GMT -5
You could even make a few small farms with a small farm house and small barn/shed. Farms were common too.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on May 12, 2014 13:30:08 GMT -5
I have a very cheap design for some land mines. They used 4" cut sections of PVC tube and balloons filled with gas. There is a knife mechanism that cuts through a piece of paper down into the balloon when the Head is stepped on. Then, three cut tubes eject BB's and powder while the popping balloon makes for the sound effect!
Sometimes there is nothing better than having a mine field that goes boom!
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Post by insterburger on May 12, 2014 14:31:54 GMT -5
I spent ten years in architecture, so approach it from that perspective. Having spoken with others about the idea of a dedicated field, I have already thought quite a bit about how a small cluster of buildings could be put up without keeping things static.
My thought was to begin with a grouping of buildings or ruins-- walls and windows, perhaps with some simple upper stories. The principle behind the layout would be to create spacing and relationships that would allow the "village" to be defended as a whole, but that would also create the potential for attacking forces to take and hold some structures, with an eye to promoting CQB. Simple things like removable shutters, a few individual walls that can be pivoted or moved, or the addition or removal of obstacles and cover outside the buildings could have profound effects on how the same small group of structures would function in combat. Add in scenario-based limitations such as the direction of attack, etc., and I don't think a group of dedicated buildings would get "stale" very quickly, even throwing four or more games a year on the field.
And further, as you create a village, you could-- and realistically would-- keep adding on to it as means allowed. Every new structure that goes up, whether a two-story town hall or a low-walled ruin, would inherently shift the dynamic. Defenders (and attackers) will dig positions, some of which will remain, and some of which will naturally disappear or can be filled in. Adding in movable pillboxes as discussed would create yet another set of variables which would profoundly change the tactics needed to defend or attack the village.
Bottom line, even permanent or semi-permanent buildings would never have to play the same twice, if designed well and supplemented with movable structures.
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