Heer Camo Trousers

[princeofpinoys]

I know that camo in the Heer is not very common, but also that Italian camo was used in Italy and the Southern Balkans if I remember right. But were any other camo used and if not was Italian camo used on the Western front to defend Germany?

[LϟϟAH1944]

Italian camo was used by 1st and 12th ss. If you do Heer, stick to wool.

[cblackthorne]

Italian camo pants were also seen with Heer units on the Southern front. No Italian camo tunics though.

I have also seen photos of Heer using splinter fabric from a zeltbahn to make a tunic. Not very common, but it was done. Havent seen photos of splinter pants though.

Regards,
Chris

[ssgjoe]

Yeah. I agree with LSSAH. Stick with wool for Heer.

[cblackthorne]

Another thing to think about is using a camo smock. Common for Heer.

Regards,
Chris

[ssgjoe]

Well, I'd say more common than trousers. But I don't see as many pictures with smocks as I do straight up wools.

[LϟϟAH1944]

Smocks were mainly issued to units like GD or PzL, but are rare for general heer infantry

[cblackthorne]

Aug 13, 2014 13:36:15 GMT -5 LϟϟAH1944 said:

Smocks were mainly issued to units like GD or PzL, but are rare for general heer infantry

Camouflaged items such as smocks and other pieces of uniforms were not that rare for Heer units. The SS did not have the market cornered. They were issued to all types of infantry units, especially Panzergrenadiers (not just GD) and assault troops.  After 1944 every infantry unit had been changed over to a panzergrenadier, with a few exceptions.


Here is a list of reference photos from "Fighting Techniques of a Panzergrenadier" by Dr. Matthew Hughes. It has the following photos that show infantry with smocks and they are not GD.

Page 9, look in the background you see a motorcycle rider wearing a smock.

Page 40, several panzergrenadiers on the halftrack are wearing smocks.

Page 43, line of troops many of which are wearing smocks.

Page 83, three soldiers wearing smocks. Granted this photo is a little fuzzy and hard to tell if its a dot pattern or splinter

Another book, "Deutsche Soldaten" by Agustin Saiz wrote: "A full camouflage catalogue of all WH and more specifically the Heers - is not easy task because the sheer number of different variations and manufacturers existing during the war. In view of its proliferation, it can be stated that the Third Reich's German army took delivery of the largest amount of this type of equipment among all the belligerent nations. According to OKW research, camouflaged items saved over 15 per cent of human lives."

Doesn't sound rare to me at all.

Another book "Fighting Men of World War II Axis Forces: Uniforms, Equipment and Weapons" by David Miller. The author wrote on page 64 "While the SS are well known for their use of camouflage clothing, the first standard German pattern was instituted by the army. Their splinter pattern was originally used for zeltbahn camouflaged shelters, but enterprising units also made smocks and helmet covers from the same material."

Page 93 has a photo of two pioneers wearing smocks.

Finally, several members of our units have had the pleasure of talking to several German veterans at various public events.  They have sit down in our camp and talked about everything from the rare use of zeltbahn tents to the use of camouflage.  One gentleman, Mr. Steiner commented that they had to make smocks and camo tunics from zelts in 1944 because it was the only way to hide from the allied fighters that were strafing them during the day. 

So, between the fact that German manufacturing was make such a large amount of camouflaged items and the fact soldiers were making it themselves, to say it was rare I do not agree with.

Regards,

Chris

[2nd Bat]

Chris,

Great insight and thanks for both the detailed input and wonderful sharing of resources. Two phrases that make me crazy in discussions about military gear and uniforms are "Always"and "Never". Having spent my first career as an Infantryman and officer in areas where total strangers were intent on killing others, if something was any where to be had, could be modified, stolen or created and made sense, it was done. When these field modifications were done and weren't authorized they were either "Over photographed" as they were curious and noteworthy or NOT photographed so as to keep people from getting in trouble. My favorite source for what was or wasn't done are the recollections of veterans who were there. Sadly this of course gets harder and harder with each passing year.

[ssgjoe]

Well, never could be used in the sense that "German soldiers in WWII never used M16 rifles"

[2nd Bat]

That falls under the category of " was anywhere to be had." (OBVIOUSLY M16s weren't around) The goal for most reenactors and living history folks seem to be to depict first and formost "that which was most common". I generally agree with that sentiment but are often frustrated by the indignance of folks suggesting something is unacceptable when in fact it was not only possibe but in some cases fairly common.

[Dracul]

I can definitely second everything 2nd Bat said, being Infantry myself. What is "doctrine" is not necessarily always the case. Logistical problems will always leave a man or two empty handed in terms of proper gear and uniform. Also, doctrine tends to be pushed aside when lives are at stake, especially when it means more lives can be preserved.

When I was in, during my last 2 years, I started to see a lot of new guys come in with entirely new back pack system and sleeping bags, but me and a lot of my peers were still carrying around the older pack and sleeping systems. Even when I went on deployment, and finally being issued the new pack, I still had my old sleeping system. And I can only imagine what would happened to a Marine who had their gear destroyed while on a combat deployment. He definitely wasn't going to get replacement gear for a long time, so he was going to get real crafty real fast.

[2nd Bat]

Necessity is the mother of invention. When lives are at stake creativity is the norm and doctrine gets overlooked even on the most anal fighting units. Camouflage is an obvious necessity as is warmth and means to stay dry in the field. One of the things I love about airsoft is with field action (even over a weekend) troops look increasingly authentic as they adjust gear, adapt uniforms and use things on hand to become more comfortable or effective.

[insterburger]

Having collected and study both WWII stuff and East German uniformed services for years, I heartily agree with the sentiment that regulations and reality were often not precisely in lockstep.

Like anything, moderation and common sense need to be used, with the primary focus (in 2nd Bat's words) being "that which was most common" balanced with an understanding that any army of tens of millions will have a certain amount of reasonable variation. The first impulse should be to go with that which was normally seen-- for Heer, this would be wools. If you decide to camo up, have a good reason for doing so, research it, and make sure it's in harmony with your unit or other players you're likely to be with. Part of what makes uniforms look cool in the field is that they're UNIFORMS-- a column of guys with consistent impressions looks WAY sharper than a hodge-podge "World War Two's Hippest Looks" fashion show. Keep in mind that when camo was issued, it would typically be to a unit, not to a guy. So if you and your squad all want to invest in Italian camo pants, it will look much better than just one guy trying to add "flair." That's not to say there can't be the odd guy out with wool pants, and obviously at events both Axis and Allied sides often add up to a fairly diverse group that look like units cobbled together from stragglers and splinters, but the idea should still be to create as unified a look as possible.

[halfnelson]

Crappy picture from a local newspaper but I thought it might be interesting concerning this thread: imgur.com/uWCiGDb

The picture was taken in Lipa, Croatia, and shows a bunch of Heer troops. Two of them are wearing some form of uniform completely made out of splinter camo fabric. The fellow
in the right of the picture is also wearing a splinter smock and both of them are wearing trousers made out of splinter fabric. I'm not suggesting this was something common, but it DID happen.

[aldrich]

That is a very interesting photo. There is a chance that they may be wearing winter gear with the splinter pattern. Also, being Croatia, it is likely that they may be from a police unit on anti partisan missions. Photos of police units can show them decked out in tailored camo uniforms. Since they were often in the rear, and often were guarding stockpiles of equipment and gear, police units had the time and resources to create such custom pieces. I remember seeing some photos of a police unit in Italy sometime after the Italian army had surrendered. There were tons of custom Italian camo tunics and pants being worn. Frontline troops, however, simply didn't have the luxury of time or resources that rearguard troops had, which is why custom camouflage items are much harder to find.

[insterburger]

Halfnelson, that is a fascinating photo, and Aldrich's observations are very insightful. With tens of millions of men under arms, almost nothing was unheard of, and many variations were documented. The question each re-enactor has to ask himself is: To what extent do I want to portray the rule, and to what extent do I want to portray the exception? In my opinion that answer should lie well toward the norm, but there will always be those who feel differently.

[LϟϟAH1944]

Halfnelson, in the pic its not splinter. Looks like Sumpf or splitter 44 to me.

[insterburger]

Aug 15, 2014 14:08:20 GMT -5 LϟϟAH1944 said:

Halfnelson, in the pic its not splinter. Looks like Sumpf or splitter 44 to me.

Honestly, with the quality of the picture and the way poorly reproduced old photos can play tricks on you (as I learned the hard way working in historic preservation architecture) that could be any pattern, but I tend to agree with you that it probably isn't splinter. That said, Aldrich's observation that it could be winter gear is still entirely valid-- plently of Sumpftarn parkas and winter pants out there.

[aldrich]

The more I look at it the more I am convinced that the soldier closest to the camera is wearing parka jackets and pants. The way the folds on the tunics are a bit too stiff to be a thin material, and sits just like my parka does on me. Also, if you look at the jackboots he is wearing, you can see with the folds how the leather is being pressed down towards his feet. That, to me at least, indicates thick padding on the pants. The rest are really too grainy to tell. But seeing how shipments came by the crateload, if one guy in a unit had them, many more would as well. If this is the case, it is a great photo of late war use of camo winter clothing in Eastern Europe.

[princeofpinoys]

Wow thanks for all the Information guys!