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Post by matthew1943 on Sept 20, 2014 19:51:47 GMT -5
Hello, I am new to the forums, and while I have come on this site periodically I have yet to see anyone mention Operation Greif. Operation Greif was one of Hitler's last ditch efforts to halt the Allied advance towards and into Germany during the Battle of the Bulge. Hitler ordered SS Standartenfuhrer (Colonel) Otto Skorzeny to create a unit comprised of German soldiers wearing British and American uniforms, and to send them into the allied lines to cause confusion and disarray. Skorzeny selected men from the SS Panzer Brigade 150, and equipped them with U.S uniforms and weapons. Knowing that there is, at least in the U.S, a sizeable gap in number between the amount of U.S impressions and German impressions; I believe an event like this come winter time would do great for a turnout. And, in general just make a great battle. Anyone with a U.S uniform could attend, and either be "conscripted" into Skorzeny's brigade or fight alongside the "real" U.S Army. And, German uniforms could still be worn to simulate the other German units fighting during the Battle of the Bulge. So, although it would be predominantly U.S vs "U.S", at least is would be for the most part authentic. And, especially because the majority of the Skorzeny's men, if not all of them to my knowledge, knew English. So call outs wouldn't be inauthentic either. Maybe I'm thinking about this to much, what are your thoughts? (Sorry in advance if this is the wrong place to post this.)
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Post by brownien on Sept 20, 2014 20:01:40 GMT -5
I do believe we tried to implement something along these lines at a past bulge event here in NY, but due to shortages in attendance and Insterberger's astounding ability to outfit the few who attended without kits of their own in Authentic German kit, there was no need for me to outfit them with my extra USGI kits. I do think its a very interesting aspect to portray for a bulge event, but I think it would be best to do with a bit larger forces. Larger forces on each side would allow the majority of the Germans to be in German uniform, and act as the main assault, while the Germans in US uniforms could move in first to confuse the Allied team. I would say a balance of 70-30 on the German team of German kits vs Germans in US kits would work fairly well, as long as you had around 20ish Germans total. I think if it was a purely US vs US (or mostly) engagement, the whole event would be more of a confused mess than actual deception within combat.
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stuka
Sergeant
The one and only
Posts: 1,205
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Post by stuka on Sept 20, 2014 20:15:09 GMT -5
I do believe we tried to implement something along these lines at a past bulge event here in NY, but due to shortages in attendance and Insterberger's astounding ability to outfit the few who attended without kits of their own in Authentic German kit, there was no need for me to outfit them with my extra USGI kits. I do think its a very interesting aspect to portray for a bulge event, but I think it would be best to do with a bit larger forces. Larger forces on each side would allow the majority of the Germans to be in German uniform, and act as the main assault, while the Germans in US uniforms could move in first to confuse the Allied team. I would say a balance of 70-30 on the German team of German kits vs Germans in US kits would work fairly well, as long as you had around 20ish Germans total. I think if it was a purely US vs US (or mostly) engagement, the whole event would be more of a confused mess than actual deception within combat. I haven't been in combat but I can imagine if you're enemy was wearing the same stuff as you it could get pretty chaotic. In one game (not ww2 but just a "pickup" game) I only had my OD's but I wanted to be with my friends on the tan based team so I put on a tricolor(desert) cover on my helmet and the refs allowed it. Anyways, I snuck up behind the convoy (They had actual trucks and an APC, it was DV8 in Fl) and acted like I was one of them, walked calmly for a little, one guy looked at me funny and I just opened up. No clue how many kills I got but my leg had tons of welts because I was right behind the masses mind you haha. It was funny, I felt kind of bad but at the same time, they didn't question it so bleh
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Post by matthew1943 on Sept 20, 2014 20:18:37 GMT -5
That is also a very interesting way to organize it. I can see what you mean about the confusion that just U.S vs U.S would cause, I thought that it would be a bigger turnout as all you would need is a U.S kit, even if it's partially incomplete. And, U.S kits tend to be less expensive than German ones. Plus, if most WWII U.S airsofters on this form are like me, they have multiple U.S kits depending on what unit they are impersonating. I have a two US Airborne kits, one with M1942s and the other with M1943s, plus I have an almost complete regular US infantry kit. I'm just missing the service shoes and leggings, which for now I substitute with my Para boots. So, we could also outfit any newcomers or those with incomplete kits for the event.
Edit: To remedy the possible confusion when setting up the teams maybe a random question could be set to see if any U.S troops are actually U.S troops, just like the real G.I's did during the time of this operation. They would ask about baseball teams, city names, ect. Just a thought.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Sept 21, 2014 23:35:16 GMT -5
At virtually every Bulge themed event i have gone to there has been some effort to introduce Scorzenys fake GIs into a scenario. Some with good results. We did one event where the US folks initially were told their unit had been surrounded and were now isolated at their defensive positions. They were ordered to break into small groups and infiltrate back to a US Roadblock and await further orders. Their infiltration route took them through enemy patrols where their orders were to avoid contact if possible. Once at the road block they were processed through and then ordered to take over the road block and identify retreating units and direct them back to the CP. Some of the units processing through were Germans where not all of them had fully complete impressions and most weren't allowed to answer anything but the most basic questions.
It was a cool scenario and a little different. Greif succeeded in creating confusion far greater than it should have given the small numbers of troops involved. The original concept was ambitious but fell way short of plans. though the plan was to gather a lot of US vehicles and troops who spoke "perfect English" in fact most German units with captured us Equipment refused to give them up. Most of the recruits spoke very limited English. The primary plan to mix in among the panicked, retreating GIs and capture the Meuse Bridges quickly fell apart and most all of Scorzenys "Brigade" ended up fighting as a weak Kampfgruppe.
The plan once recognized caused lots of Germans in partial US uniforms (grabbed to stay warm) to be shot as spys.
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