|
Post by volkssturm on Oct 11, 2014 19:20:24 GMT -5
Interesting picture posted at Forgotten Weapons today www.forgottenweapons.com/ (They call it Vintage Saturday). Not much information on the pic, but they appear to be SS from the camouflage. The interesting detail is that the man on the left is holding what's been identified as a Lebel R35 carbine. The R35 was an effort by the French to economize in their rearmament. They had adopted a new cartridge and were developing the MAS36 rifle. They had millions of leftover obsolete Lebel rifles. So they converted about 50,000 to carbine for use by North African colonial troops. The conversion cut the magazine capacity down to 3. The question is, why would what looks like a frontline unit be using one of these? And how steep is tat slope they're dug in on? The French also tried converting the Lebels to their new 7.5mm cartridge, with a Mauser style box magazine, but the cost off doing so was excessive and not many were made. candrsenal.com/rifle-french-lebel-mle-1886-m93-m27/
|
|
stuka
Sergeant
The one and only
Posts: 1,205
|
Post by stuka on Oct 11, 2014 20:41:39 GMT -5
Very odd/cool
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Oct 11, 2014 21:35:18 GMT -5
Odd indeed. I know the SS were famous for having perennial supply and procurement problems that compelled them to use just about any firearms they could get their hands on, but this is pretty obscure even by those standards.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 11, 2014 23:23:57 GMT -5
Definitely an SS unit. I wonder where the location was? In looking at the terrain if I had to guess I,d say Russia and a railway siding. Italy I suppose is another possibility?
The fellow with the carbine has both a map case and binoculars. Officer perhaps?
|
|
|
Post by halfnelson on Oct 12, 2014 7:21:22 GMT -5
To me that looks alot like sand, so maybe they're on or near a beach?
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Oct 12, 2014 10:17:16 GMT -5
I agree with John, that hill looks an awful lot like a railway grade. Not really enough in the picture to tell where it might be.
The map case and binos could indeed indicate an officer. However map cases were also popular totes for non-standard ammo or weapons, so it could relate more directly to his Lebel. An interesting picture that asks a lot more than it tells.
|
|
|
Post by volkssturm on Oct 12, 2014 12:13:21 GMT -5
A railway embankment is very plausible, particularly given the level top.
|
|
|
Post by luftwelle93 on Oct 12, 2014 13:42:03 GMT -5
Yeah that's what it looks to me.Pretty interesting photo and a rare one at that!
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 13, 2014 10:33:32 GMT -5
Actual photos are fun as there is a story being told and we the viewers are free to tell it. Lots and lots going on in that picture. Very cool photo. It also could be a dike in Holland?
|
|
|
Post by volkssturm on Oct 13, 2014 11:40:39 GMT -5
A dike seems very plausible, with the sandy soil. Possibly/probably the Netherlands. That would place it late war (Sept. 44 or after). Maybe a unit reorganized and reequipped after getting battered in France, filling in the TO&E with whatever weapons were to hand.
|
|
|
Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Oct 13, 2014 14:21:11 GMT -5
its not late war. 99.9% certain its SS-VT in France, 1940. Would explain the lebel.
|
|
stuka
Sergeant
The one and only
Posts: 1,205
|
Post by stuka on Oct 13, 2014 15:48:42 GMT -5
but didn't the camouflage schemes come out later in the war?
|
|
|
Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Oct 13, 2014 16:49:35 GMT -5
Not at all. In the pic, ALL of the camoes are the early hand-screened Platanentarn. Absolutely nothing in this photo is making me think its post france 1940, but I could be wrong.
|
|
|
Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Oct 13, 2014 16:53:58 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Oct 13, 2014 20:37:53 GMT -5
Good eye.
|
|
|
Post by volkssturm on Oct 13, 2014 21:36:23 GMT -5
Great set. Thanks for finding that. I think the most likely possibility is that the Lebel is a bit of battlefield loot that he's examining, rather than an issued weapon.
|
|
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on Oct 13, 2014 23:11:58 GMT -5
Im surprised no one else has jumped on this yet since its even been corrected on the original page cited, but the rifle in question is actually a Berthier Carbine and not a Lebel. As to their use by the Germans, this was covered some time ago in a thread on the Axis History Forum which has many good photographs. Both the Berthier and Lebel rifles, along with many other French small arms, were issued in significant quantities to both front line and rear echelon forces.
|
|
|
Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Oct 14, 2014 5:30:23 GMT -5
Doubt it was issued in this photoset, most likely a battlefield pickup.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 14, 2014 13:51:13 GMT -5
Wow, Mystery solved. No doubt a Dike and in my opinion at this advancing stage a battlefiled pick up. The photo series provides so much uniform and equipment details for this SS unit early in the war. Thank you for finding and sharing it! The variety of ways gear was sorted out and worn is very helpful as are the myriad of uniform details.
I really feel for the fellow lugging the mortar baseplate in several pictures. it looks like a cool project for ABS plastic! A Kompanie level mortar is on my to do list although the small mortar for airsoft probably makes more sense. The mix of helmet covers and no helmet covers is interesting. I love the way the grenades are stashed in every way conceivable. At this stage most everyone appears to be wearing jack boots rather than low boots with gaitors.
|
|
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on Oct 14, 2014 14:28:02 GMT -5
The consensus of the original thread in which I first encountered this photo was that it was part of a series taken on the Eastern Front in 1943. The reference given is page 368 of a book called "Wenn alle Brüder Schweigen". In that context it seems a battlefield pickip would be unlikely.
|
|
|
Post by volkssturm on Oct 14, 2014 14:59:40 GMT -5
By golly, that is a Berthier. The hump in front of the trigger guard, partially obscured by the guy's hand, should have been a give away.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 14, 2014 15:19:57 GMT -5
Upon examining the full thread of pictures the advance through the Low Countries NOT Barbarossa seems far far more likely. Not just because of the captions but the backgrounds themselves and the map being examined in the CP photo. (Much more representative of Western Europe then the East) I would be very surprised if these were taken on the Eastern Front although it is not unheard of for a batch of photos to be mixed and matched with several theaters and campaigns. the SS unit markings indicate both "2" and "3" on the collars. any experts on vehicle markings recognize the designations there?
these have to be from the early phases of WW2 in WESTERN Europe.
|
|
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on Oct 14, 2014 16:27:46 GMT -5
that's a good idea. One of the experts on here should definitely be able to narrow it down based on distinctive unit markings.
|
|
|
Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Oct 14, 2014 17:12:40 GMT -5
schwerpunkt, whatever book said it was eastern front, is wrong. These pics are well known propaganda photos following SS-VT in france. Also, note mos tof the gear is early war, including a few block pattern smocks and covers.
|
|
|
Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Oct 14, 2014 17:13:12 GMT -5
Also note the early numbered tabs.
|
|
|
Post by Schwerpunkt on Oct 14, 2014 17:24:12 GMT -5
Yeah im not an expert on the SS, nor do I own the book in question, so I'll have to defer to those that know. One SS soldier looks much like another to my untrained eye. It certainly wouldn't be the first time the authors of a book screwed up the caption of a photo or were just plain full of applesauce . The only time I'd ever seen the photo before was in a large collection of other various german troops (SS, Heer, Luftwaffe, etc.)in an assortment of locations equipped with the same weapons. It seem then that it was either mislabeled or mistakenly included.
|
|
|
Post by shiftsup on Oct 14, 2014 18:40:35 GMT -5
I own a copy of the Schiffer Book "Waffen-SS in the West Holland, Belgium, France 1940 - A Documentary in Photos by SS War Correspondent Friedrich Zschäckel, SS-PK". The photo in question is on page 108. It's an English reproduction / restoration of "Waffen-SS im Westen". The Forward in the book was written in 1941.
|
|
stuka
Sergeant
The one and only
Posts: 1,205
|
Post by stuka on Oct 14, 2014 19:41:01 GMT -5
Yeah I once was reading a ww2 book and one of the captions said something along the lines of "Japanese soldiers training" but the pictured rifle with the soldier had a very blatant external magazine(At least protruding below the rest of the stock) and I can't remember if it looked like a sks or some sort of ak varient. I thought it was pretty funny. I know the two guns were very different but this was several years ago and all I remember were asian looking troops and I believe a spike bayonet(For ak it could have been a type 56)
|
|
|
Post by ssgjoe on Oct 14, 2014 23:17:33 GMT -5
Maybe an SS soldier examining a lebel he found only to throw it out and use his kar98.
|
|