Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 14, 2015 10:41:44 GMT -5
Due to some real lucky eBay finds, and research, I'm throwing together some British SAS kits. Why SAS and not standard Tommy? SAS used M1 Carbines and berets are generally much cheaper then MkII Doughboy Helms. So, I'm wondering if the American style berets, that you see everywhere (eBay, surplus stores, Rotcho, etc etc), are incredibly different from British style berets. Also, if there is a huge difference, is there any possible DIY things I can do to make it (more) correct, outside of placing the SAS emblem on them? Another thing, if you switch up the beret to a different color, you can do other impressions as well. Just need to replace the M1 Carbine for a more proper British weapon. I can find these American berets in a good maroon color for 15 bucks, w/ free shipping. That would means these kits are going to cost about $150 total, gun included! With out the gun, that is under $100! My breakdown, with rounded numbers: Beret - $15 Modern USMC Tanker sweater, exact clone of the Commando sweater - $10-$25 Ptn49 battle dress trousers - $17 Belgian P37 leggings - $8 Basic P37 gear set (belt, pouches, suspenders, canteen holder) - $15-30 M1 Carbine kit (gun, sling, 3 extra mags) - $60-$70 I know the sweater isn't the best for summer months, but I've found them on eBay for under $10! Don't worry about it being USMC. I've had one when I was in, and there is nothing on it to make it USMC. No EGA's, no "USMC" on it, or anything of that sort. I've read that other reenactors use the Ptn49 trousers, and convert them to P37 ones. By moving the cargo pocket and taking the fabric underneath the new pocket spot to make the bandage pocket, and just using what ever fabric to fill that hole, no one is going to see it under the cargo pocket. The P37 gear are the lucky eBay finds I've mentioned. I won two sets of belts, pouches, canteen holders, and tournister straps for $15 each! I have an extra set of suspenders and small pack, to complete one, so I just need another set of suspenders and small pack to finish the next. No doubt that I'll be able to find them cheap on eBay at some point. The big downsides are the lack of battle dress blouses/sweaters only, and the P37 gear is going to be all mix and matched tan, blanco green, Belgian green, etc. I'll try my best to make each kit uniform. All of this is pretty much opportunity and good timing! When I saw those bids, I sold one of my airsoft guns, just for the bids. In between those, I did research and found out that I can throw these kits together. Probably the cheapest and playable kits out there, too. This might pick up interest to get more British players! One reason why I posted this! So others can use what I found. UPDATE! With references! Belgian leggings: www.ebay.com/itm/120445482164P49 Trousers: www.ebay.com/itm/370273019325P49 conversion (info about 3/4 way down): www.6thairbornearmouredreconnaissanceregiment.com/uniforms--equipment.htmlAmerican Beret: www.ebay.com/itm/Military-Army-Inspection-Ready-No-Flash-Wool-Beret-/130863141358USMC Sweater: Just eBay search "USMC Wool Sweater" P37 gear: Just eBay it and keep on the look out for damned good sales.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 14, 2015 20:37:52 GMT -5
Great references and great idea. The tunic I would think could be substituded nicely with a wool Ike jacket which I find from time to time in Thrift shops Albeit typically in small sizes. some are post war while others are Canadian. the Canadian Army kept them as a uniform item for quite some time after WW2. They frequently are quite reasonable in price. ($10.00 to $15.00)
The differences in contemporary US Berets and those from Commonwealth armies back in the day are too subtle to trouble with for our purposes. We have incorporated a built in crest brace which they created with the emblem. As a RANGER back in the days when a Black Beret was EARNED not ISSUED I can say that much pride went into forming, shaving and shapings ones berets and each Battalion in the 75th Regiment had their own subtle differences in the way they were worn. In Vietnam Berets other than SF units were entirely unauthorized but LRRP units some AF security outfits and a few Riverine Brown water Navy units wore them anyway.
The US has the Crest consistently and precisrly over the left eye where the Brits as often as not let the crest drift to the side. there is nothing more hideous looking to me than a poorly worn beret! The British uniform always looked nice to me especially with the Denison smock. It would be nice to see a few units show up at WW2 airsoft events who are: Underpaid, undersexed and under Eisenhower (as my father used to say)
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 14, 2015 21:59:54 GMT -5
I haven't really seen Ike Jackets at thrift stores, but I have seen US Ike Jackets at surplus stores around me for fairly cheap. Problem is though, that the US ones are too green. I wish I had the luck to find post war and Canadian Ike Jackets, haha.
With that in mind about the berets. I'm all set to move on with this. Best thing is, that I can pick up green ones and switch the kits over to airborne if need be, and to black if we ever had a game that required British tanker crews. I think the tan berets might be decent to switch everything over the Canadian. I believe the Canadians wore tan berets to some extent, but don't hold me to that at all.
Is there a reference out there that covers how the British wore their berets like that? All I'm seeing is that they wore the emblem over the left eye.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 14, 2015 23:47:33 GMT -5
If you look at the last group picture depicted of the group headed to Palistine you'll see thatt the crests are not typically over the left eye at. For US Rangers and SF they would be squarely and quite precisely over the left eye. If worn correctly. US units varied with how much of a crease they placed between the crest and the top of the head and how much the crest was set to lean out. Also how much (if any) of an angle was used (More with some units than others). To get the proper shape much manipulation took place with in some cases liners removed, wool boiled and shaved. It was quite the process. The US Army issued Berets today have the Blue star encrusted crest and a inner brace to maintain the shape better.
In Alaska the 172nd (Which both Volks and I were assigned to) briefly went with a Wool blanket brown beret. Hideous! Incidently we never met but were there about the same time. I wonder if he got stuck with the poop brown beret? i still have mine somewhere? My Ranger Berets of course I still have! each of the 75th Regiment Battalions had a tick mark on the crest to indicate it.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 15, 2015 0:18:46 GMT -5
I was asking about British berets, haha. Don't worry, I got buddies in the Army that I know all about their Beret standards.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 15, 2015 13:29:45 GMT -5
Did you see in the pictures what I meant about where the crests ended up on British Berets? Monty for example, in many pictures you'll see his beret emblems clear over to the side of his head. In fairness he often had multiple emblems on the beret.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 15, 2015 14:54:54 GMT -5
Oh crap! I'm sorry, I read your first post completely wrong. I thought it said that the British wore their emblems in the middle or something else. My bad. I feel like an idiot now, hahaha.
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Post by volkssturm on Mar 15, 2015 19:18:19 GMT -5
Back in high school I liberated my uncle's Ike jacket from my grandmother's. I suppose after I went to college it went to Goodwill. I've always liked the Ike jacket. They should have kept it. I was gone from Alaska before the berets.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 15, 2015 20:16:34 GMT -5
Volks, You didn't miss a thing. The brown beret was supposed to destinguish the 172nd and create a sense of Esprit De Corps but it was poorly received. I always liked the Korean War Era Cold Weather Cap but hated the Nylon and velcro replacements that were the most common headgear (in the field). Older vets could be easily distinguished by the cooler Korean War Caps and I thought they were a nice touch with the Class As. Much trading and bartering went into acquiring those hats and often times they commanded high prices from guys ending their tours up there.
I lived in Seattle and remember on leave finding hundreds of them at Eds Army Surplus which I bought for $2.88 each and brought back to Ft Richardson where I sold them for a tidy profit. I wished I had bought them all. Obviously a big departure from a discussion about British Berets but it goes to show how significant and emotional military headgear is.
I always thought that for the Brits like the US Burgandy was Airborne, For the Brits, Black was Tankers and Tan was their Commando designated color as it is with US Rangers now. green were their Marines I thought? Someone knows no doubt?
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 15, 2015 20:57:55 GMT -5
From what I gathered. Maroon is SAS, Green is Commando, Black is Tanker, Tan wasn't for British. Tan is Candian something, and closest thing in the UK to a tan beret was the Scottish Tam-o-Shanter, which was I believe some sort of Military school hat for Scotsmen.
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Post by kiwi432 on Mar 16, 2015 5:49:32 GMT -5
Very few British units wore the beret where as A lot of commonwealth units wore Tan berets in Italy. Especially New Zealand and Canadian infantry, will try to find a color picture of a kiwi soldier shortly But why not play a commonwealth unit, just as fun and something a little different
Also with a kiwi soldier they used a lot of American equipment rather then sten guns. For example a lot of units were equipt with M1A1 Thompsons and a mixture of other things.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 16, 2015 7:38:24 GMT -5
Thanks for the info!
While I wouldn't mind throwing together other Commonwealth kits (I plan on doing Aussie kit once I'm finished with my personal Black Watch impression), the lack of Italy games, and the documented use of the M1 Carbine makes SAS the best choice. However, if the berets are only thing holding me back from switching the kits to Commonwealth units, I can always swap them out to match the scenario. Berets are cheap enough.
One of my other ideas, was to get another Thompson and let the team leader use that. Still not sure the British and whatever other Commonwealth that got American weapons, got the 20 rnd or 30 rnd Thompson mags. Eventually wanting a Cz26 to use in place for a Bren gun. Hell, with how cheap this is ending up to be, I might be able to build up to a full squad. Squad leader gets an SMG, a Bren/MG team, and the rest rifles. If I found a good source for P37 blouses in bulk, I might as start a British/Commonwealth team down here in Maryland and do British games. Opposed to just supplying a few Brits here and there to the American front games.
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Post by kiwi432 on Mar 16, 2015 8:36:18 GMT -5
Yup, New Zealand infantry defitely used 30rd mags as the Americans supplied them. Most of the commonwealth supplies in Italy, rations ect came from the Americans. The aussies in the far east had the same thing. Is why you see a lot of them with American hbts and equipment. For SAS you could probably get away with wearing anything british airbourne smock, jersey, they used such a variety of stuff just like they still do these days. Or using captured Jerry guns and equipment. Whatever its a laid back kit. A lot of the time they would not even wear hats so its really what you feel like using.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 16, 2015 10:57:17 GMT -5
Those are damned good pics, thank you!
That makes things simpler. Since, I'd rather not cut down mags if I don't need to.
While captured German guns is an idea, I don't quite have a surplus of German guns. Especially if I'm having to supply both sides. To be honest, not many really do. They aren't has cheap, plentiful, and/or available as US guns are. In the end, these M1 Carbines are the IDEAL loaner weapon, this thread just reinforces that and branches the idea out to Commonwealth.
Since this idea is getting bigger then I initially thought. Might need to create a new thread, haha. Is there a good reference on how a British rifle platoon or squad was set up and what the organic weapons would be? Like would an officer be at the squad or platoon level? Would he have just a handgun? Would the Squad leader, or even fire team, leader have a SMG AND side arm? Would a Bren gunner have a side arm? etc etc. I'm new to this.
My first goal is to get a fire team completely up. Uniform, gear, weapon.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 16, 2015 12:17:47 GMT -5
For commonwealth troops, the wool watch cap is also quite valid and fairly common place. A lot more practical in the field than a beret.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 16, 2015 12:59:03 GMT -5
I think it would only be more practical for the winter. I can't imagine wearing that in the summer.
You know, its pretty hard to find info about British Platoon and Squad Breakdowns for WWII, with all of the good detailed info. Since I'm stuck in a starbucks waiting for the bus, I decided to dig for the info. I was only able to find info on the Squad, or how they called it, Section. Here is what I found.
Billet-Rank-Primary, ammo-Secondary, ammo-Other Section: Leader - Cpl - SMG, 5 Mags - Grenades, 2
Bren Team Leader (also the Assistant Section Leader) - LCpl - Rifle, 50 rounds - Grenade, 1 - Machete, 4 Bren mags Number 1 (gunner) - Pvt - Bren, 4 mags Number 2 (a. gunner) - Pvt - Rifle, 50 rounds - 4 Bren mags
Rifle team 6 Riflemen - Pvt - Rifle, 50 rounds - Grenade, 1 spike bayonet
On topic of what I can use for blouses. I've delved into it, and the cheapest Denison smocks are generally only a few bucks cheaper then a full P37 denim set from WPG. To the point of just buying the P37 trouser and blouses instead is the better idea. Unless there just happens to be some sort of post war or other looked over Denison style jacket that is fairly cheap and good enough looking.
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Post by shiftsup on Mar 16, 2015 22:05:36 GMT -5
The British Infantry section for wwii NWE for the most part was a 7 man rifle group and a 3 man Bren Group. 7 man rifle group would have 6 riflemen equipped with No 4 with section commander (corporal) either carrying a sten smg or a No 4.
Bren group would have a bren gunner and 2 men equipped with No 4's. Bren gun group leader would carry a rifle and most likely be a lance corporal. All ten men in the infantry section were to carry 2x to 5x Bren Mags along with their own 10 x .303 rifle chargers. Of course this is just by the book and did change organically during the war as required.
In regards to Berets it's a mixed bag. SAS= Sand(beige or white-both unofficial). Airborne= Maroon, Black = Armoured, Khaki = Recce / Armoured Car.
SAS also wore black and maroon berets. Black berets can be seen worn in early desert war photos. As well SAS were also under the command of the Army Air Corps by 1944. AAC wore the maroon beret. SAS in NWE also wore black and maroon berets to conceal who they were to the enemy if captured.
Also some Recce Corps wore the Black Beret beginning as early 1944.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 16, 2015 22:51:12 GMT -5
Well, that beret stuff is confusing. Either way, these kits are still going to be SAS with maroon berets, at least to start out.
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Post by shiftsup on Mar 17, 2015 6:24:24 GMT -5
Yes it is confusing. Certainly not cookie cutter. Apparently the Brits were either to have blue or maroon berets for airborne. Lt General Browning was said to be in charge of that decision. Browning's wife, author / playwright Daphne Du Maurier preferred maroon. Or so the rumour goes.
But SAS with maroon berets is certainly fine. You don't really have to bother with the suspender straps either. Lots of pics in the field of SAS just wearing a belt. The suspender can be strapped on the small pack as well to carry it over one shoulder and used as an ammo bag. SAS were generally in jeeps. Wearing a pack on their back was problematic and uncomfortable. Small pack was used as a SHTF bag if the jeep was compromised.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Mar 17, 2015 7:45:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I read somewhere they, along other airborne units, kept their small packs on their left hips, attached in the same manner as the canteen holder. Because of what you mentioned and you can't wear a pack when parachuting. I was going to implement that.
Using suspenders to turn the small pack into a satchel is something I did for my Black Watch impression once, but since no one is playing with jeeps any time soon, I'd rather keep the small pack attached to the suspenders, airborne style. Easy place to store, and get to, extra items, especially water bottles. I don't plan on supplying everyone with period bottles. Also, I don't have to worry about getting L-straps.
I dug around WPG, and it seems I completely oblivious to their battle dress that wasn't in some sort of package. They have P37 demin jackets, by themselves, for $50 (newer run) and $35 (older run). Thats not too bad, actually. Raises the prices of these kits if you buy them, but those are a really fair price.
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Post by shiftsup on Mar 17, 2015 17:16:32 GMT -5
Sounds like you're really onto something here in regards to affordable Commonwealth costumes for wwii airsoft. Be sure to post some pics of what you have put together.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 17, 2015 18:29:48 GMT -5
Not just affordable Commonwealth impressions, but perhaps the cheapest WWII impressions for airsofting.
I'm definitely going to post pics, no worries there!
UPDATE: I still can't decent source of the SAS beret emblem. Only ones I found that come from the US, didn't have a picture of the emblem on the beret. So, I'm extremely skeptical about it. Also, WPG doesn't have something like that. They have beret pins, but the not emblems. There are plenty out there, coming from the UK, but you will be paying more on shipping than on the emblem itself.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 24, 2015 13:16:56 GMT -5
Update! I got everything in, but I have yet to mod the P49 trousers to the proper P37 look. So, here is what the "Loaner SAS Kit" looks like. Note, don't ever get a Rotcho beret. I know Rotcho has a history of being hit or miss. I personally had good experience with them, but not this beret. It came all folded up and the wool is pretty thin. I have berets from costume shops that are finer quality then this one. I should be able to iron out the creases, but damn, its pretty sad looking. My suggestion, though, is to pay the few more dollars and get the one from WPG ($22), or find a non Rotcho maroon beret. I won't be able throw it all on and take a pic of how it looks. Since I can only find P47's in US Medium, and I'm a US Large. However, it wouldn't be that big of a deal to get extra P47 trousers to tear up and make those Mediums into Larges.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 24, 2015 17:53:16 GMT -5
Very cool. The best and cheapest source I have found for berets are Thrift shops. I roll through them on a regular basis (once a week or so) and literally do a five minute walk through at several in my area. Usually there is nothing of interest but over time the treasures really add up and at cheap cheap prices. Admittedly in the beret department I sought black for Namsofting which is a more common choice that red, green or maroon but I'm sure the other colors show up there as well. typically on hats you're looking at $2.00 to $5.00.
While youre there look at belts, boots, jackets and uniform section and prepare (on occassion) to be delighted.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 25, 2015 18:59:20 GMT -5
Thanks!
I always keep my eye open for military stuff in general at thrift stores. One nearby me had a whole stash of E German Canteens. I didn't pick them up since, unfortunately, the store was selling them for the same price online. "
To be honest though, paying the extra few bucks to get a good beret doesn't bug me at all. Especially since everything else can be had for cheap.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Mar 30, 2015 18:03:12 GMT -5
So, I picked up this book called "British Airborne Troops" by Barry Gregory, at the Navy's Library today at work, and I came across this picture. Well, now I have an excuse to get this type of Thompson.
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Post by shiftsup on Apr 1, 2015 20:41:30 GMT -5
Most likely wwii Polish Airborne Troops training given the Polish Exile Eagle on some of the helmets.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Apr 1, 2015 21:08:27 GMT -5
The book does state that the two of the troops in the back are indeed Polish. The rest are British. (I shouldn't have cropped out the description, haha).
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Apr 18, 2015 14:56:47 GMT -5
So, I had a bit of a field day today at I Goldberg's Army and Navy in Philly. - Gas mask pouch - P37 small pack x2 - P37 suspenders x3 pairs - P37 belts (probably post war, they all have the grommets) x3 - P37 Bren pouches x2 pairs - US Mussett bag (modern canvas repro) P37 Battle Dress Jackets (Greek) x3 They had a 75% off all wool deal going on, and made these 6 bucks each, hahaha. So good Most expensive item here, was the repro mussett bag at 13 bucks. Everything else, was 8 bucks and under. They still got plenty of more stuff there, too. Everything came out to just under $120!!! Off topic, but it seems like bigger name repro companies like Rotcho and Fox have started to make a bit of US WWII gear at low prices. I can't tell the quality of the stuff yet, but I picked up the mussett bag so I can compare it to my mussett bags when I get home and see how it holds up. Rotcho sells the WWII canteens and pouches, together, for 9 bucks. Back on topic, thats enough gear and blouses/jackets for now (I got even more coming in), gotta start concentrating on pants, gaiters, and headgear (and weapons). Nothing too difficult, but now I got a lot kits that are missing this stuff.
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