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Post by luftwelle93 on Apr 3, 2015 17:35:16 GMT -5
The Dot-camo of the Waffen-SS is a distinctive feature of the branch.It was totally exclusive to them but I was wondering.Was there any Wehrmacht soldats that saw interest in them to the point of actually using the camo?I was wondering since I would think it was readily available whether the opportunity struck.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Apr 3, 2015 19:33:08 GMT -5
From what I understand is that any camo designed and used by the SS, stayed in the SS and the other branches were not allowed to use it at all, no matter how good and possibly life saving it could be.
The rule of thumb is: Its possible that uniform/weapon mix ups could have happened, but its extremely unlikely and not the norm.
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Post by luftwelle93 on Apr 3, 2015 20:53:00 GMT -5
From what I understand is that any camo designed and used by the SS, stayed in the SS and the other branches were not allowed to use it at all, no matter how good and possibly life saving it could be. The rule of thumb is: Its possible that uniform/weapon mix ups could have happened, but its extremely unlikely and not the norm. How elitist the Waffen-SS can they be :PIt makes me wonder now what would happen if a regular was caught with the camo.I think I've seen photos of Polish and other resistance groups donning captured smocks and such.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Apr 3, 2015 21:20:11 GMT -5
I always found stuff like this kind of funny. Maybe this is just "hindsight being 20/20", but the Dot camo, was the best damn camo in WWII. At least for the region, and we know this because it became "Flecktarn" in post war, and its still used to today, and a lot of countries use variations of Flecktarn. Hell, even the JGSDF uses a Flecktarn variant, and parts of Russia, they use the same patterns, down to the colors and reversibility of the SS uniforms. Point I'm trying to make is, if its so good, then why not let your other country men who is spilling the same blood in the same mud as you, use your pattern? It doesn't make sense and it seems silly to let pride get in the way of helping others survive.
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Post by volkssturm on Apr 3, 2015 22:08:40 GMT -5
The US Marines included a small EGA symbol (Eagle Globe and Anchor) in their Marpat camouflage pattern (which is really little more than CADPAT with different colors). They're very protective of it, as far as not letting anyone else use it. And I believe paratroopers in WWII were prone to get offended when they encountered non-airborne troops wearing jump boots. I read that when the 1st Airborne Task Force was formed for the invasion of Southern France some of them reequipped themselves by prowling rear areas and "confiscating" jump boots from non-airborne troops. The social dynamics of elite units can get interesting.
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Post by luftwelle93 on Apr 3, 2015 22:28:11 GMT -5
On a similar note in WWI the French Chasseurs Alpins mountain troops wore (and the present) a distinctive blue berets.Other French troops liked the berets too and got them their own.As you expected the Chasseurs Alpins weren't too pleased by that as well.I guess the examples we have on this thread shows that elite troops are VERY protective of what unique equipment they have.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Apr 3, 2015 22:30:17 GMT -5
Which we really just took from the Canadians, haha. They developed it first. Which is another thing I find funny. We have so much pride in the MARPAT, but we really didn't create it, haha. Also, the Russians store the pattern as well, haha. Changed up the shading and some of the splotches, and named it SURPAT.
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Post by shiftsup on Apr 4, 2015 22:20:46 GMT -5
Waffen SS had a nearly separate and distinct supply chain from the Heer in many regards. The WVHA had a difficult enough time supplying the Waffen SS Divisions with uniforms nevermind having uniforms for Heer. I don't think it was due to any elitest sentiment. There's a pretty common picture of LW FJ Hauptmann Rudolf Rennecke wearing an SS Smock w/a LW eagle stitched on the it at Monte Cassino.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 4, 2015 23:03:02 GMT -5
WW2 was a huge endeavor with millions upon millions of belligerants. Absolute statements such a ALWAYS and NEVER are the ludicrous poutings of self identified EXPERTS who have nothing better to do than berate others or not knowing as much as they do. In war anything that could have been done AND especially things that make sense, no doubt were done. Having said all that, for the purposes of our hobby it is best to strive to depict the NORM and stay away from the bizarre exception. Every unit sees itself as elite (especially those that truly are) and elite units take pride in those things that visually identify themselves.
The example of corcoram jump boots is one that carried well after WW2. In Vietnam LRRP units which later became formally RANGER units unofficially wore Black Berets and though just as unauthorized as when worn by straightleg, rear eschelon troops took extreme offense when seeing berets on non LRRP soldiers. Many a fight was initiated among US soldiers over things less significnt than a camo pattern. Years later when the Black Beret became normal issue for all US Army personnel the cry and hew from my fellow RANGERS was incredible. I too felt upset and disappointed as silly as that sounds.
There is no doubt in my mind that dot camo found itself on non SS soldiers but I heartily suggest we avoid it unless wishing to depict a member of an SS unit.
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Post by shiftsup on Apr 5, 2015 0:24:00 GMT -5
A sincere rule of thumb is that if all you have to go with is the notwithstanding clause of wwii was massive in scope so it probably happened....you should probably not do it.
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Post by aldrich on Apr 5, 2015 3:34:37 GMT -5
While the Heer and SS were all part of the German armed forces, one must always remember that they were born from two very separate and distinct military institutions with very different approaches to warfare. On one hand, you had the very traditional German army, which could trace its roots back to Prussia. On the other hand you have the SS, which very much looked toward the future. Because of this, especially early on in the war, you see many of the radical military thinkers and strategists being shunned at the more traditional military schools in the Heer. Many took their ideas to the much younger SS who were more open and receptive, which is partially why they were such an effective fighting force. The differences between the "old guard" thinkers in the Heer and the new age thinkers in the SS carried out through the entire war. Things such as camo came to signify this difference and I am sure they were very protective of it. So while the SS didn't want to share their camo designs, I have never gotten the impression that the Heer really ever had a major interest in using them either. Just like the camo came to represent the SS, the field grey look had long represented the Heer. That being said, could some Heer soldier have scrounged his way into some SS camo, sure. But seeing as not every SS soldier was even issued specialty pieces of camo, I would agree with everyone else and stay away.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Apr 5, 2015 8:06:36 GMT -5
heer Em with ss camo? Nope, never. Heer officer with ss camo? possibly, see it in 1 out of every 1000 photos. SS with heer camo? pretty rare, only really done with zelts.
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Post by insterburger on Apr 5, 2015 9:41:38 GMT -5
"Nope, never" is a bit strong, but generally yeah. I understand there is a picture floating around of a Heer formation where all the soldiers have W-SS helmet covers, but I've never seen it. Fell off a truck? God only knows, but not something to EVER build an impression around.
As for Heer officers in SS camo, my understanding was that this was usually a situation of items being gifted... professional courtesy and all that. Again, not a good basis for inclusion in an impression.
What I've seen is that the more mature people get in this hobby, the more they realize that less is more when it comes to building an impression. "Flair" and "farb" are right next to each other in the lexicon of re-enacting.
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Post by luftwelle93 on Apr 5, 2015 10:31:34 GMT -5
Some good information coming in this thread.Its interesting to know that neither Heer or W-SS hardly used each others camo.I also wonder which camo was more effective and praised in WW2?
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Post by aldrich on Apr 5, 2015 11:38:38 GMT -5
I think the pictures of the entire Heer unit wearing SS camo are from an early war police unit. I believe the reason behind it is that they were technically SS, and were supplied accordingly, but since they were a police unit they still used the Heer insignia via regulation. Only later did they switch to SS insignia. At least, that is what I have heard. The SS was much smaller than the Heer, and even with that the camo was mostly issued on an as needed basis. So if you were outside the SS, and you got SS camo, most likely you had some connections. As far as effectiveness goes, the SS spent much more time developing and producing camo, and in my experience, it works much better than splinter or marsh pattern. It all depends on the environment I suppose. Still, when I have reenacted as a Russian, at a good distance, the only way to spot the SS reenactors is by their faces.
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Post by insterburger on Apr 5, 2015 11:54:26 GMT -5
Aldrich, you are 100% right, 99% of the pics of "Heer" wearing SS camo are in fact police units. The pic I mentioned is supposedly a Heer combat unit with SS helmet covers, but since I've never seen it with my own eyes I certainly wouldn't vouch for it. I'm trying to imagine how such a situation would even come about-- it would have to be an odd set of circumstances, such as a unit commander coming across a quantity of them abandoned and deciding to issue them to his troops. So even if it is what it claims to be, I would have to question the wisdom of anyone who used such an anomaly as a basis for an impression.
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Post by luftwelle93 on Apr 5, 2015 11:59:19 GMT -5
Ja the SS camo looks nice but to mix it with Heer would look weird and not the normal look.I like the local made splinter items like caps,trousers,smocks,ect. that some Heer troops had though even that I guess wasn't as common if I'm correct.
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Post by aldrich on Apr 5, 2015 12:44:47 GMT -5
As I understand it, splinter helmet covers were not uncommon enough to warrant staying away from them. They actually do pop up quite a bit. Smocks are a bit of a hit or miss. Since there wasn't a whole lot of them made they were usually issued on a priority basis. Units such as the Grossdeutchland div. were given lots of smocks due to their status. Tank hunter teams, AT gun crews, snipers, and MG crews can be seen wearing them as well. For standard infantry, it is best to use a zeltbahn if one wants camo.
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Post by luftwelle93 on Apr 5, 2015 12:59:23 GMT -5
The zeltbahn has to be one of the most handiest pieces of kit in the Heer.It can be a tent,smock,sling,stretcher,foxhole cover,and even a floatation device!The standard kit of a Heer is perfect enough for me.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Apr 5, 2015 21:01:54 GMT -5
I think the pictures of the entire Heer unit wearing SS camo are from an early war police unit. I believe the reason behind it is that they were technically SS, and were supplied accordingly, but since they were a police unit they still used the Heer insignia via regulation. Only later did they switch to SS insignia. At least, that is what I have heard. The SS was much smaller than the Heer, and even with that the camo was mostly issued on an as needed basis. So if you were outside the SS, and you got SS camo, most likely you had some connections. As far as effectiveness goes, the SS spent much more time developing and producing camo, and in my experience, it works much better than splinter or marsh pattern. It all depends on the environment I suppose. Still, when I have reenacted as a Russian, at a good distance, the only way to spot the SS reenactors is by their faces. Its 4. SS Polizei, not heer. Not even normal police, just normal SS wearing polizei bling.
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Post by shiftsup on Apr 5, 2015 22:17:59 GMT -5
In the closing months of the war SS police units were issued combat uniforms with the dot 44 camo. The cut of the jacket is the same as the orpo summer uniform which is different than the wss m44 drill jacket usually printed with dot 44 camo.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Apr 5, 2015 23:12:09 GMT -5
No, not SS police, regular police. They wore dot. Its the same as the SS cut dot tunic, except with scalloped pocket flaps.
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Post by shiftsup on Apr 6, 2015 9:31:28 GMT -5
Sorry, was just attempting to be brief. You are correct.
In the closing months of the war, police in the 3rd Reich, which were under the jurisdiction of the SS, were activated for combat. Due to the police being under the jurisdiction of the SS, they able to use SS material supply for uniforms. Some pollice activated for combat late-war were supplied with a dot 44 uniform that was similar in cut to their summer police uniform. This was different from the more common waffen SS drill uniform. The noticeable difference is the pleated breast pockets with a scalloped flap.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 6, 2015 11:01:51 GMT -5
Camo is neat looking as it denotes ELAN and close combat. In reality its effectiveness is actually quite limited when compared to subdued, earth tone uniforms. Even at fairly short distances even the boldest patterns wash into a solid blened shade to the naked eye. Some argue that a plain uniform is actually more effective at hiding the wearer due to the effects upon the solid from shadows that are ever changing hence a solid is more adaptive. I'm not sure that I buy into that theory. the reality is camo is mostly worn as a psychological confidence instiller. Like war paint or football players applying the black smudges below their eyes.
I love camo. It says "yeah we're badasses". The more unique to an individual unit the more elite and distinctive that force feels. The incredible diversity of patterns created by the SS is mind boggling but very cool in my opinion. For Heer as I understand it the smocks were limited issue to spearpoint, combat elements only in support of set campaigns or missions. The concept was that the smocks would be turned back in following the offensive operations. Obviously once issued soldiers hung onto them. They would be most common with Infantry, Armor, pioneer and recon units.
The normal splinter very quickly blends to a solid even pretty close up.
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Post by shiftsup on Apr 6, 2015 12:02:20 GMT -5
In regards to reenacting / airsoft, camo is really just a fashion show.
German officer interviews about camo after the war all agreed on its importance. However there was hardly a consensus as to which pattern or non pattern uniform was most effective. And all agreed that movement was not concealed at all by camo uniforms.
Camo only does so much. In the ETO with the US / Allied air and artillery superiority camo uniforms didn't help much.
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Post by volkssturm on Apr 6, 2015 13:10:00 GMT -5
Somewhat beside the point, but I've always thought it was a shame that the US was so laggard in coming up with camouflage uniforms. There was the duck hunter camo used in the Pacific and a pattern briefly used in Normandy and dropped because it was confused with German uniforms. But it would seem like they could have produced the M1942 paratroop uniform and/or the M43 field jacket in the British brush pattern used by British paratroops. I've read that some paratroopers in the Pacific and in the Southern France invasion daubed paint on their uniforms to make a camo pattern. The M1941 Parsons jacket could have been done in a camouflage pattern as well, if anyone had thought of it. Once I perfect my time machine I'll go back and start making suggestions.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 8, 2015 2:11:02 GMT -5
The M41 was sometimes turned inside out as the liner provided better camouflage than the khaki outer shell. there are also cases where airborne M42s were splotched in camo paint. (sometimes OD sometimes black and for the rhine jump, both). The 41st Infantry assigned to the 2nd Armored Diviion kept their camo uniforms until well into September when they were replaced with M43 gear.
The Khaki M41 never seemed wrll suited to Northern Europe and I know from WW2 Infantrymen interviews that was a common feeling.
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Relish
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Post by Relish on Apr 9, 2015 18:46:04 GMT -5
There's another pic of an SS officer whose name escapes me, but he was wearing a greatcoat made of Splinter fabric. I'm also fairly certain I remember seeing SS guys in army camo in other situations, but I'm fairly certain they were Dirlewanger brigade guys, and you wouldn't wanna be seen looking like those guys.
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Post by LϟϟAH1944 on Apr 9, 2015 21:02:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I have the pic of the splittertarn mantel saved on my computer, but don't know the guys name.
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Post by luftwelle93 on Apr 10, 2015 14:42:45 GMT -5
There's another pic of an SS officer whose name escapes me, but he was wearing a greatcoat made of Splinter fabric. I'm also fairly certain I remember seeing SS guys in army camo in other situations, but I'm fairly certain they were Dirlewanger brigade guys, and you wouldn't wanna be seen looking like those guys. Dirlewanger's unit was a whole new level monstrosity.Even SS officers complained about their acts which says a lot.Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few W-SS used splinter as it was very abundant camouflage in the lines.As for Americans in the Pacific,I heard that most preferred solid OD garb over the striped camo.
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