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Post by volkssturm on Apr 23, 2015 23:04:21 GMT -5
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Post by insterburger on Apr 24, 2015 6:11:28 GMT -5
Man, this just goes to show how far Deutschland has fallen. The one thing you could generally count on from them was excellent weapons design-- that and awful strategic planning that got them into unwinnable two front wars.
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Post by ssgjoe on Apr 24, 2015 11:38:02 GMT -5
Germans had excellent field officers, their general staff was lacking.
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Post by volkssturm on Apr 24, 2015 13:00:54 GMT -5
The basic design of the G36 may actually be OK, from what I've read. The real problem seems to be that there's too much plastic and someone decided to change the composition of the plastic between producing the original test rifles and the actual production run. Apparently they've found polyethylene in the production rifles that wasn't in the test ones. Someone's head should roll for making that change without testing. It'll be interesting to see if they try to fix it, like the Brits did with the SA80/L85 (interestingly, it was HK who fixed it for them) or just trash can the weapon entirely. I suspect the G36 is so tarnished at this point that it's history. Either way, HK wins, since the likely successor to the G36 could be the HK416.
Regarding the German staff, the Germans probably had the best trained staff officers in the world from a tactical and operational standpoint. Where they were lacking was their logistical staff work, along with a lack of logistics training and awareness right up to the top of the officer corps. One of the criticisms of Rommel was that, wile he led from the front, he really didn't concern himself with what was going on with his lines of supply. Logistics was where the US really stood out, probably because so much of the officer corps came from a business background or ad been in college studying business before the war.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Apr 24, 2015 13:37:48 GMT -5
Should have stuck with the G3...
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Post by insterburger on Apr 24, 2015 15:19:51 GMT -5
For the record, I was being a bit facetious-- and it's not as though German weapons design didn't have its share of lemons (the Goliath and Elephant are just two examples that come to mind). That notwithstanding, cutting-edge logistics as much as anything else was vital to our winning the war in Europe as quickly and decisively as we did.
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Relish
Private
PICMDEEP
Posts: 261
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Post by Relish on Apr 24, 2015 17:25:36 GMT -5
Germans had excellent field officers, their general staff was lacking. I'd say the generals weren't that bad either, but when your field marshals have to concede to the tactical prowess of a corporal, two things I'd imagine is that A: they get a sense of resentment that they have to take orders from a friggin' message runner and that B: they can't properly apply military tactics when they're being forced under pain of death that its Hitler's way or the highway. Hitler's own general staff even always brought up how fighting two fronts at once was a bad idea. Certain new fronts like the Balkans and Africa were unavoidable since that was Il Douche getting in over his head. The world would be a rather different place if Sea Lion had been committed to and Barbarossa had been delayed. If the Germans had no other foes to contend with, and they had all of Britain's resources after something like success in Sea Lion and in Africa, the conflict between the Germans and the Russians would have been on a scale the likes of which we still haven't seen to this day. All that hypothetical history aside, it'll be interesting to see where they go with this. H&K already produces large quantities of the 416 carbines for US SOCOM types, the M27 IARs for the USMC (basically the same thing), and I believe its the standard issue rifle of the Norwegian army now. Realistically they could quite easily adopt that patern rifle as the new standard, and they'd be leaps and bounds more in-tune with the rest of the EUFOR/NATO/western forces that use STANAG type magazines in their rifles (US M16/M4, UK L85, Swedish Ak5, Norwegian HK416, Danish & Canadian C7/C8s, Italian AR70s, French FAMAS*, and even Israeli TAR-21s).
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Post by ssgjoe on Apr 24, 2015 17:38:53 GMT -5
Germans had excellent field officers, their general staff was lacking. I'd say the generals weren't that bad either, but when your field marshals have to concede to the tactical prowess of a corporal, two things I'd imagine is that A: they get a sense of resentment that they have to take orders from a friggin' message runner and that B: they can't properly apply military tactics when they're being forced under pain of death that its Hitler's way or the highway. Hitler's own general staff even always brought up how fighting two fronts at once was a bad idea. Certain new fronts like the Balkans and Africa were unavoidable since that was Il Douche getting in over his head. The world would be a rather different place if Sea Lion had been committed to and Barbarossa had been delayed. If the Germans had no other foes to contend with, and they had all of Britain's resources after something like success in Sea Lion and in Africa, the conflict between the Germans and the Russians would have been on a scale the likes of which we still haven't seen to this day. All that hypothetical history aside, it'll be interesting to see where they go with this. H&K already produces large quantities of the 416 carbines for US SOCOM types, the M27 IARs for the USMC (basically the same thing), and I believe its the standard issue rifle of the Norwegian army now. Realistically they could quite easily adopt that patern rifle as the new standard, and they'd be leaps and bounds more in-tune with the rest of the EUFOR/NATO/western forces that use STANAG type magazines in their rifles (US M16/M4, UK L85, Swedish Ak5, Norwegian HK416, Danish & Canadian C7/C8s, Italian AR70s, French FAMAS*, and even Israeli TAR-21s). When I'm talking the general staff, I'm talking about Hitler's personal staff. But I guess they weren't bad-Hitler just was strategically challenged at best and he held complete control.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 24, 2015 19:03:09 GMT -5
The M16 rifle as designed by Stoner was actually quite good but between initial trials, testing and production, some bean counter, REMF in the Defense department decided to "Save millions". By changing the materials used in the bore and ordering up different powder for the ammo than Stoner had intended. The resulting jams in combat killed dozens (at least) and gave the rifle an initially horrible reputation. The Army blamed the problem on every day GIs and Marines insisting they weren't keeping the guns adequately cleaned.
The real problems were quickly identified and changed along with additional improvements and frontline troops demonstrated greater dilligence in keeping them clean. The weapon then went on to be the longest serving main battle rifle in history ( by a lot) and lives on as the M4. Thankfully I didn't have to deal with the weapon prior to its significant improvements. I have always had nothing but positive experiences with the M16 and lved the lighter weight of the weapon itself and especially the ability to carry so much ammo.
As airsofters you all appreciate how quickly one can rip through several hundred rounds and with the M14 the prescribed combat load was 200 rounds. For the M16 lugging 600 rounds was considered a lot but was doable.
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Post by volkssturm on Apr 24, 2015 21:37:38 GMT -5
I read recently that the change in powder came as a result of some behind the scenes lobbying by one of the powder companies (I forget who) that had a big supply of powder they wanted to move. What they didn't realize was it burned dirtier than the original powder and the burn profile caused a pressure spike. I've always been a bit skeptical of the direct impingement design but I ran across a couple videos recently of M4's being tested to destruction. One of them ran over 800 rounds full auto (changing mags of course) before failing. With both of them it was the barrel that failed. I still kind of think a piston drive design like the 416 is better, though. You can add the French Special Forces to HK416 users, and quite possibly the rest of the French army in the near future. They've announced that they're looking to replace the FAMAS.
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