2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 11, 2015 17:10:36 GMT -5
I think the Japanese law is 1 jouelle of power which puts .20 gram at 290 Fps. My initial impression of the gun is very good visually but performance wise straight out of the box it is quite weak. Just over 300 FPS w .20 gram and the hop up is there but non functional. Much more detail to follow. I really like the replica but it will require upgrades. Hopefully mine is not representative of this gun but even if this is how they are. Assuming I can upgrade it I would buy another.
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Jun 11, 2015 18:31:34 GMT -5
Both 2ndBat and I got our 1903's in! I'm going to post his review first and then the next post will be my own review. 2ndBat's is split into two, but both in this same post.
Got my S&T Springfield first thing this morning from evoke. Nice quick shipping considering it was no charge. The packaging was nicely done and the replica is gorgeous. The gun comes with a nice manual with clear illustrations which is great as the English is classic Chinese interpretations. "Cock the hang guard till heard the click sound.". " you may know punish if you are shooting for joke." There are no BBS or unjamming rod with the gun and a single,thin 25 round magazine. Curiously there was a spare rear sling hardware assembly with mine. The loop is slightly too small for actual slings but an easy fix. As shared by droopaille in his report the wood is a stained ash and a bit too light and pretty for a military issue stock but gorgeous. A few more coats of linseed oil and exposure to the elements should remedy that. The metal is all in a satin finish black. The safety switch is functional and spot on. The bolt lock is non functional. (No big deal at all) Loading the magazines with BBS is easy enough although sliding in into place through the trap door magazine plate at the base of the gun will prove tricky during a game and the trap door hinge feels a bit flimsy. Thankfully it feeds 23 rounds between reloads so with practice and spare magazines this should be okay. As to shooting I fired 200 rounds through the gun. Hmmmmmm? The cocking action is a bit hard being slightly too hard for me to do at the shoulder. My initial thought was well I bet it will be powerful! Sadly I was disappointed with that expectation. Instead of the 420 fps promised it shot right at 320. Not horrible but truthfully not what this type of Rifle needs to do. I swabbed the barrel and it improved a bit. (335) Droopaille redid his hop up and its real clear why. The stock hop up as installed does nothing with 20 gram BBS. After a hundred shots cocking seemed easier or perhaps I was getting used to it. The long range performance however simply isn't there. With upgrades it should be fine. (Especially hop up). I was hoping it would shoot on Parr with the vsr offerings its clearly based on but instead it seems set at 1 jouelle power perhaps to meet Japanese or British import regs. So overall how pleased am I with the gun. Actually Inspite of the negative skirmish ability as it is right out of the box I am thrilled. At $148.00 it is a steal. More to come and hopefully others got theirs and we can see how theirs are compared to mine.
With receipt of my S&T 1903 I decided to shoot it alongside the cheap CYMA carbine and a homemade VSR \ Springfield conversion. Far and above the most powerful was the conversion which shot between 411 and 428 fps with 20 grams. Second was the carbine at 320 and finally the S&T at 320. The hop up in all these guns fall short of great but at least the Springfield conversion and carbine both have something applying backspin. The carbine was by far the easiest to cock and had better range and straighter shots than the S&T. The homebuilt had easier cocking than the S&T and far far better power. In a skirmish I would believe the carbine to be the most competitive. Easiest to put consistent fast shots down range,easy to reload and it's small size an advantage. Visually the competition isn't close the S&T is stunningly gorgeous. With TLC and upgrades it is going to be fabulous. 2nd Bat
|
|
stuka
Sergeant
The one and only
Posts: 1,205
|
Post by stuka on Jun 11, 2015 18:34:22 GMT -5
is it indeed vsr10 compatible?
|
|
|
Post by tchaa on Jun 11, 2015 18:46:06 GMT -5
Hm... just over 300fps seems rather low, considering Evike lists it at ~390fps or so (though learned to take their specs with a grain of salt at this point). If it is VSR-10 compatible then I can definitely see at least 2 of these adding a bit of contrast to my overly modern armoury. Would need to get it up to 400 fps, maybe 450 fps and a nice tightbore and upgraded hop up to get it up to gaming spec. Oh that reminds me, if anyone does a full teardown, please check if its using standard AEG barrels and hop ups or if its using VSR-10. I'm optimistic it may be using a standard AEG barrel and hop up due to the parts diagram I saw in the manual, with everything else being standard VSR-10 compatible. Also, here's a copy of the manual if anyone's interested: S&T M1903A3 ManualOne last thing before I forget, it looks like the manual is incorrect with regards to the safety and the magazine disconnect. If you watch the review video I linked, the safety at the rear of the bolt functions properly as a trigger safety, while the magazine disconnect lever completely locks the bolt in place when flipped down. Found that rather interesting. PS. whoops, guess i posted this a tad late, didn't see the new overview post so "derp" on my part.
|
|
|
Post by tchaa on Jun 11, 2015 19:00:12 GMT -5
Oh right, forgot to ask.
Are the S&T trades and "Made in China" lasered on or are they some sort of paint (hopefully I didn't miss this somewhere)? May prep and look into getting some proper Remington trades CNC'd on along w/ the safety and "ON/OFF" magazine disconnect.
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Jun 11, 2015 19:15:10 GMT -5
Time for my own review. When I got home, I was pretty excited to see my 1903 arrived. Unfortunately, it didn't quite hold up to the excite level. Sorry that this will seem kind of lukewarm. I think this qualifies for a "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" type of review. The Good: Externals are extremely good. Probably some of the best externals I've felt on an stock airsoft gun. Wood feels great, and the metal should definitely hold up well. Safety works, but I don't know if you can pull the bolt back with the safety on with a live steel 1903 or not. Either way, credit has to be given since the safety isn't just there for show they integrated it with the VSR-10 system. My stock came in a darker color. It might be too light of a shade to some, but I have no qualms with leaving this as is. The mag turn off switch goes up and down, although a pain to do so. No function on the airsoft gun, so its negligible. Hopup adjustment clicks into place and you shouldn't have to worry about it moving on its own. The Bad: FPS is too low. I clocked in 355-360fps w/ .20's and about 330fps w/ .25's. I'll give it that the FPS was fairly consistent. However, the hopup definitely needs upgrading. When its slid all the way forward, BB's will just roll out, no matter the weight. Anywhere from halfway to back, seems to hold BB's fine. I also find it odd, they carve out a section for the hopup arm, for functionality, but they used some weird hopup. One would think that if they are going to carve a hole for a hopup arm, it would be where a standard VSR hopup arm would come out of. Personally, I think the standard arm would make this look better, since its just a thin piece of metal and less conspicuous if it was between the stock and the handguard. "Made in China" painted white on the trigger guard. While mine did come with an extra rear sling assembly, like 2ndBat's, the one that was installed, completely lacked the ring itself! Pretty moot of a point, considering the second one it came with, but thats just no bueno. I don't have a sling to test out the rear sling ring size, but judging from others, its not big enough. The Ugly: The mag system. Now, I'm fine with how the mag itself is design and how you work it. After lubing the mag, I was even able to get all 25 rounds out! My problem is with the internal mag release and the mag plate. The internal mag release lever, needs to be much longer and work better. I should be able to just press something, and then the mag shoots back. When I press the small release lever, the mag TRIES to shoot back, but my finger is right there, preventing it from removing itself. So, I have do a lot of wiggling, or use both hands to remove it. Whats ugly about the mag plate is that, you can't just simply close the plate by slamming it in place. You have to line it up, and then push the release switch in, to get it seat all the way. I can't just push down on it! The mag plate also dangles way tooo much when open. Final word: It honestly seems like you get what you paid for, which is alright, since they put more into the externals, and it really shows. What they really need to improve on are the mag plate, internal mag release, and the hopup. Even though the idea of the mag system is weird, I really think that the improvements I mentioned would greatly speed up the mag change process. Which, these improvements can be made without adding much, or anything at all to the overall costs. However, despite all this, I'm really loving it. $150 w/ free shipping for this is a steal. Between the standard, simple VSR-10 upgrades (sears, spring, hopup bucking) and the accessories (mags, sling), you can easily have a great performing, iconic, accurate looking WWII battle rifle for under or about $200 bucks. This is a great starter weapon for new players altogether: costs, no worrying about batteries, smart chargers, high caps, expensive mags, easy to maintenance and upgrade, not a completely proprietary system. I wish I had the time to tinker with the internals to see how compatible it is with other VSR-10 parts. I'm going to throw in a UTG VSR-10 upgrade kit, and the Clandestine Airsoft sears into it. Along with a new bucking. I will try to do some long range shooting and field tests with this, prior to upgrades, but I can't promise that. Last thought: Anyone else think that if they actually drilled out the hole in the stock, that it could it fit a magazine in there?
|
|
|
Post by hardslack on Jun 11, 2015 20:55:43 GMT -5
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 11, 2015 21:05:51 GMT -5
Interestingly I too thought about drilling an extra 2 inches into the butt plate hole with the thought of storing a Spare magazine there. Great minds think alike. Glad to hear yours had a bit more power. For my hop up there was no clicking just a free slide that did nothing. This beauty begs for upgrades. In response to tchaas post buying two and turning one into a classic m1903a1 is something I will seriously consider.
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Jun 11, 2015 21:13:17 GMT -5
Just an thought, maybe thats why I have better FPS than yours. Maybe your hopup wasn't assembled properly? Also, I cleaned my barrel as well, and it wasn't that dirty. Still getting the same FPS.
When I get down and dirty with this, I'm going to swap out hopup chambers, and see what I can do with a standard one with the arm on the left. Maybe bend it over the stock, so it rests between the stock and hand guard.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 11, 2015 21:30:47 GMT -5
Okay so I just did what I should have done 100 shots into my ownership. I took the rifle partly apart. Cleaned some things up and reassembled it. I really am not aware of anything significant that I did but when I went back out to test fire the results were night and day. Chrono was 396 to 418. The hop up (though still not great) was working. I suspect slightly off hop up was the earlier issue. I shot two magazines and without further tweaking it is now absolutely skirmishable. The mag trap door as stated by drac is awkward and will break in a skirmish but the way they hide the feed system is clever. I may remove the trap door for events and definitely will if I loan it out.
My excitement for this gun which was quite high just went much higher. It begs for upgrades but no longer demands them.
|
|
|
Post by jared21 on Jun 11, 2015 23:26:11 GMT -5
The best thing I did was clean the barrel of mine and lube everything up. I also did Droops modification and holy cow what a difference. Mines chronoing at just over 400 fps and with the hop up mod will reach out past 200 feet accurately easily with a .25. I must stress DO THE HOP UP MOD. You'll be glad you did! It's ok without it but to be truly skirmishable you'll need the range. I am very pleased with mine and once you break the mag in it will work better. I've put about 400 shots through it between yesterday and today and it's broken in now and working great. I plan on adding a few more to the collection. Thinking about converting one to an A4ish just for giggles. I would still recommend this one even if you don't do the mod just because it's fun to shoot.
|
|
stuka
Sergeant
The one and only
Posts: 1,205
|
Post by stuka on Jun 11, 2015 23:55:27 GMT -5
bolties are always fun to shoot although for games it can be rather difficult to get kills but can be all the more rewarding
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 12, 2015 0:41:09 GMT -5
Great to hear other peoples experiences with this significant new gun. I expect we will have to start a SPringfied tech thread to cover tweaks, upgrades and lessons learned with this rifle. The links were mostly for the 96 rather than VSR specifically but I can see any reason they wouldn't be worthwhile to try? In my past VSR conversions Teflon tape is your friend. No extra stress on anything and greater more consistent power. Without doing anything since my reassembly it is consistently able to put BBs with a nice loud plink on a garbage can at 200 feet. I want more of course but for now it is something one could field.
|
|
|
Post by tchaa on Jun 12, 2015 2:28:06 GMT -5
Well, I guess I'll be placing an order for one soon, just wish Evike had the mags in stock as well.
Also, can anyone confirm yet, whether it has an AEG barrel & hop or a VSR barrel & hop in it? Should be relatively simple to tell if you've taken it down to the hop up. Hoping its using AEG barrels and hop ups.
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Jun 12, 2015 5:17:21 GMT -5
Egads! All the things I miss when I sleep....
It's great that something simple as disassembly / reassembly brings it up to the proper FPS.
Can anyone tell me if the cylinder internals are plastic or not,and if the sears seem good enough, please? I won't be able to check this stuff for a while myself.
|
|
|
Post by SfcMigs on Jun 12, 2015 8:55:51 GMT -5
Glad to hear everyone is happy with their M1903, for the most part.
Well I got mine yesterday, was very happy with the externals. Went outside to shoot it, took the first shot and nothing came out! Removed the mag, BB feel to the ground, then I used my unjamming rod for any other stragglers, none present. Inserted the mag, pulled back the bolt to the click and then...........NOTHING!!
Trigger is stuck, bolt won't move. UGH!!!!!
Checked the safety on the slide bolt, checked the side safety as well. All good. Removed the mag, used unjamming rod again. Nothing but a stuck trigger and slide bolt.
Contacted Evike.com and waiting for an RMA.
Hopefully the replacement works better.
I do know that once I get the new one, I'm upgrading the hop up and probably putting in a better spring.
Anyone have any idea as to what size spring the gun comes with and what size should I go to. Want it firing 450FPS or more.
Thanks,
Migs
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Jun 12, 2015 9:31:52 GMT -5
Alright, it seems these things are wrought with QC issues... Definitely something one has to take apart, clean and reassemble to make it work well.
Migs: You'll want about a M150 spring in it. It would be great if the stock sears and piston can handle higher grade springs.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 12, 2015 12:51:25 GMT -5
Everything internally seems fundamentally like the BAR10 VSR. I have well over 300 rounds through it and at 200 plus when I took it apart I didn't see any seer wear on the trigger box. Way back when I used the AGM001 VSR clones for my conversions I had several of them start slam firing within 100 rounds! All showed wear to this part almost immediately. For this gun the trigger box is obviously better than that but I suspect an upgradd trigger box will be worthwhile especially if someone goes to an upgrafed spring.
I plan to do the teflon tape, polishing upgrades but NOT a stronger spring as I like less cocking effort. if you have to drop the rifle down to your hip to cock it renders you far less effective in a skirmish (in my opinion). At present mine is slightly too hard to cock at the shoulder but I suect that will ease with use and practice.
An improved hop up is a screamng need in this rifle as "booties" cry out for heavier BBs and the stock hop up simply doesn't manage them well. This is true of the JG Bar 10 and other VSR clones as well.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 12, 2015 16:22:22 GMT -5
In answer to the question about the prominent "made in China" on the trigger guard. I used some "good off" cleaner to try and rub it off with no results. I then used some tiny grit sandpaper and removed along with some of the black finish. Once started on the artificial aging process I couldn't stop so I lightly sanded all the surfaces that would naturally show wear. In my opinion this helps to highlight the wonderful details and helps create a field used look which I prefer. The rifle is just too minty nice when it arrives.
Next I will darken and "age" the stock. This is a really nice looking gun. With some added confidence as to the action I fired a magazine down range from the shoulder as quickly as I could. That's a pretty good cardio for an old man but it is doable. The ics garandis far far better suited for suppressive fire but this will keep peoples heads down as well. Clearly however the pronounced movement required for cocking will draw a lot more attention to the firer.
|
|
|
Post by SfcMigs on Jun 12, 2015 19:50:50 GMT -5
Alright, it seems these things are wrought with QC issues... Definitely something one has to take apart, clean and reassemble to make it work well. Migs: You'll want about a M150 spring in it. It would be great if the stock sears and piston can handle higher grade springs. Thanks Drac. I'll wait until I switch it out and make my mods then. Might start with a better hop-up and go from there.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 12, 2015 21:25:23 GMT -5
Hop up improvement is no doubt the biggest return on effort for this gun. I think I'm clear on droopailles modification but I don't have the machining equipment to create the threaded tab.
|
|
|
Post by droopaille on Jun 14, 2015 14:34:05 GMT -5
Hi all,
I'm back from the greatest OP of the year : Cap Gloucester. I tried my new replica and I'm happy of the use. I had issues with 0.4 bbs which were blocked in the barrel, I must had disassembly 10 min before starting ... grrrrrrrrrr So I must used 0.25 bbs and it was good.
All people who tried the rifle were happy with.
It need anyway an upgrade.
I'm waiting pics.
Bat, you don't need other tools than a colunm drill (and a tap) for doing a similar hop up systema
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 14, 2015 14:43:20 GMT -5
That is no doubt the first skirmish use for the rifle (at least from our members). Not surprised to hear it did okay. Everyone I have shown it to has been thoroughly impressed. I grow increasingly pleased with it. A great new member in the ever growing armory of skirmishable WW2 weapons choice. This same execution with a Kar 98 would be huge for our hobby.
|
|
|
Post by Abbot on Jun 15, 2015 7:49:47 GMT -5
Wow, if I didn't just buy a weapon, this would be my choice... I really think this will encourage new players...
I think the biggest issue with people switching, or just merely playing, as WWII softers is that the initial cost is so high... For myself, having Crye gear, and uniforms, and highly customized weapons, I find its actually much cheaper... My plate carrier alone would fund most of the gear and uniform. But what steers players away is that they aren't able to afford that kind of stuff and are used to paying $25 for a set of camo. So when they get up the guts to do it, they see the outlandijg cost for a working replica, and outright quit the idea... I see this as an encouraging measure and expect it will draw in even some members from my own team I run.
Also, I expect to see some Private Jackson impressions in the near future...
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Jun 15, 2015 13:17:13 GMT -5
I'm sure the Saving Private Ryan movie prompted this and other springfields to offered just as Enemy at the Gate no doubt influence the gas Kar 98s and Mosin Nagant replicas. Since the gas offerings appear to be fairly disappointing and the shell ejecting springers are inappropriate for our uses I sure hope more offering from S&T similar to this M1903 come along. At this price point every german reenactor would no doubt want one. I know i would buy several for my aggressor group.
|
|
|
Post by newcomer on Jun 15, 2015 16:05:50 GMT -5
Just want to give a heads up for anyone else experiencing a stuck trigger. After about 80 rounds mine would lock as if it were on safe, coupled with a wobbly feel on the bolt handle. Disassembling the gun to tighten screw L13, the one behind the bolt head, fixed the issue for me. I figured it out after I had to press the bolt head (C05) in order to get the trigger to function.
|
|
|
Post by emtfred on Jun 15, 2015 17:08:07 GMT -5
I got mine in the mail today and I'm really disappointed. I loaded the gun...went to pull the bolt back (off safety) and it wouldn't come back. I finally got the bolt back and the trigger wouldn't pull. Then the bbs started falling out of the barrel. I haven't even fired one shot....any suggestions? I managed to get shoot it without any bbs but it seems the trigger decides it doesn't want to work half the time
|
|
|
Post by volkssturm on Jun 15, 2015 17:22:28 GMT -5
Boy, it seems like a significant number of these have problems out of the box. Disappointing.
|
|
|
Post by tchaa on Jun 15, 2015 17:47:49 GMT -5
Price jumped up to $200, which doesn't make this worth getting for me anymore sadly... was about to place an order as well before I noticed the price in cart.
|
|
stuka
Sergeant
The one and only
Posts: 1,205
|
Post by stuka on Jun 15, 2015 18:00:40 GMT -5
that's a pretty dick move by evike, I can see needing to sell some quickly but that was beyond their not sale price (183 or something I think)
|
|