|
Post by insterburger on Oct 31, 2015 11:38:03 GMT -5
I like your resourcefulness, Drac! My strategy for loaner gear has been different-- keep a watchful eye out for deals and pick up good quality stuff on the cheap. It takes patience, but you end up with much better kit. Though financial constraints have forced me to slow down lately, I've been able to put together around EIGHT loaner kits this way-- including weapons. I think quality matters because people who might not have tried this hobby before will be much more impressed by being kitted out in something closer to the "real deal" than they will if everyone around them is in good repro stuff and they have to make do with something less. Still, if the choice is between something cheap or nothing, you know which one wins every time!
Keep up the good work!
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Nov 1, 2015 8:26:49 GMT -5
Thanks for your words!
I thought about your strategy, too, and oddly enough, I did the same for my personal kit, haha. So, it does work! ($50 tornister pack, repro, hell yeah!)
When it comes to loaner kits though, I'd be afraid of having too much of a mix of specific sizes. Logistically speaking, I'd prefer to make tunics the standard, American Small/Med/Large, etc and be able to fit more like that, and the one thing the E. German nylon belts are good for, and we can all agree on, is that they can be adjusted for extra small guys all the way up until 47 inches! Even if I switch to complete leather belts, I'll be keeping a stock of these E. German ones just to fit those sizes.
Quality is why I try hard when it comes to my homemade stuff.
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Nov 2, 2015 7:48:03 GMT -5
I hear ya, it's a difference in approach is all. If I have $15-20 to spend on loaner gear, I think it's better put toward an M43 cap than toward a plastic helmet that will need a cover. But the other way works too. The one thing I'd disagree with you on is East German nylon belts-- until someone can show me a way to make them look right or feel right, I personally don't see much of a place for them in a hobby that is trying to gain credibility with BF guys-- there are just too many infidelities with them to justify their use, IMHO. I do have an idea to fit repro belt buckles on East German leather belts, but that's another thread.
BTW, your homemade stuff is positively off the charts, especially when you've been using authentic fabrics. Those HBT tunics are truly works of art, I'm in awe of your sewing abilities.
|
|
|
Post by volkssturm on Nov 2, 2015 11:37:13 GMT -5
Looks really good.
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Nov 3, 2015 8:45:01 GMT -5
The more I think about the plastic helmets, the less I like the idea. Loaner kit should "outfit" new players, not "costume" them. The real hook for this hobby is to be immersive and put people in to WWII. With BBs flying instead (thankfully!) of bullets, and given other limitations, there is more than enough suspension of disbelief already. Wearing a plastic helmet feels nothing like wearing a real one, and I think putting new players into seriously deficient kit-- even if it outwardly looks good (which these do!)-- works against our interests in recruiting. As I've said in very different contexts, we may have one and only one shot at recruiting a given player. Whether his loaner kit feels more like the real thing or more like a Halloween costume could make all the difference. I do understand the other side of the argument, and I'm all for trying to make a small budget stretch-- things like East German bread bags, post-war mess kits, CZ-24 bayos, or Drac's home-made Gamaschen, breadbags, and HBT tunics don't bother me at all. But in the end I think avoiding really, really cheap or inauthentic feeling/looking stuff like plastic helmets and nylon web gear is the way to go.
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Nov 3, 2015 12:16:55 GMT -5
Yeah... I see what you mean about helmets. Hmm.. I think my new plan is, for now, just use these plastic mock-ups for now, as a stop gap, to get the kits something. While I'll try the "wait for good deal" approach to slowly cycle out the plastic ones with proper repros.
As for belts. It has been my goal to replace them with leather ones, but due to sizing worries, I still will have a few extra nylon belts on hand to swap in for those who don't fit the leather ones. They won't be a standard part of my loaner kits. Only will use them when the sizing needs arise.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 3, 2015 13:07:54 GMT -5
I see the costume aspect very differently. I see them as a means to accommodate the ranks of your potential recruits buddies. He gets the vision and wants to participate but he would like to come with a batch of his friends. Some show up (most drop out before the fact) those who show up fill the ranks and they have a great time. Those truly bitten with the bug and introduced to the proper gear acquire their own with the aid of proper loaner gear along the way.
It's not the approach for everyone but it has worked in the Northwest. 1\3rd of the 120 plus participants at Jump to Destiny were in costume quality impressions but it worked.
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Nov 3, 2015 18:32:43 GMT -5
I've been trying my best to walk the line between costs and authenticity. Maybe something just has to give as there is no true middle ground...
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Nov 3, 2015 18:37:29 GMT -5
And I will make appoint of saying, when I post it is one guy's opinion which is worth no more than the value someone cares to give it. As you say 2nd Bat, you have a different approach, which works for you, and which I respect. When you're outfitting on the scale you describe it's an entirely different thing-- a swing of a couple bucks per impression can have repercussions in the hundreds of dollars. Whereas out here, the problem is less outfitting dozens of people than finding warm bodies to fill the uniforms we already have. Different solutions for different problems.
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Nov 3, 2015 18:49:52 GMT -5
I've been trying my best to walk the line between costs and authenticity. Maybe something just has to give as there is no true middle ground... I think in some cases there totally IS a middle ground, and in some cases, less so. An East German bread bag won't be quite the right shade, and some repro stuff is also slightly off, which I can live with. A helmet that might get carried away with a stiff wind is quite another thing. I think it might come down to choosing your battles. Speaking of East German belts, my idea for modding them was to cut away the hooks etc. from the back of a repro buckle and just epoxy it to the front of an East German buckle. If necessary, the "wings" on the DDR buckle could be cut away so that the repop buckle fits snugly on top. Hardly perfect, but better than a Hammer und Zirkel emblem in the midst of the Third Reich. I agree with you that the easy adjustability of the East German web belts is great, it's a shame they're not more authentic. I'm wondering if they couldn't be taken apart and the hook catch re=rivted on to a 1-3/4" strap of tropical-style cotton web strapping (or, even better, thin leather). With a repop buckle they would quite look the part, though I don't know if that would be more trouble than it was worth.
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Nov 3, 2015 19:10:16 GMT -5
I was speaking in the overall of things. Helmets being the thing that has "to give."
When it comes to most of the individual pieces of uniform and kit, I believe I have found good middle ground.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 3, 2015 20:07:05 GMT -5
I like the reasonable tone of this discussion. I am discovering that it is easier to credibly costume US forces than German. I am finding thick leather belts pretty affordable and those not black, stain nicely. Is there a source for Heer and SS buckles alone?
At range I find the East German belts acceptable but obviously not ideal or part of the long term plan.
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Nov 3, 2015 21:30:28 GMT -5
The cheapest source I've found for belt buckles is IMA at $11 a pop (your choice of SS steel or aluminum, or Heer), but unless they're part of a larger order the shipping makes them less of a deal. I'm sure one could do better by getting in touch with a Chinese wholesaler if a bunch were being purchased at once.
The only problem with them is that the Heer steel buckle is black but should really be gray-green (there is also a Heer aluminum one for sale, but my understanding is that these are a fantasy piece). You can buy spray paint that authentically replicates the German color, but it is pricey. I tried an alternate method on a lark that worked so good I've used it ever since: Spray the buckle with Rust-Oleum Camo "Deep Forest Green," which is a decent tone but too flat, then topcoat with a couple coats of matte poly, and they end up looking very, very good.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 3, 2015 23:36:47 GMT -5
Hmmmm. So a grey green for the belt buckles for the 42\ 45 years we typical skirmish?
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Nov 4, 2015 7:35:35 GMT -5
My understanding is that the tone could vary considerably from an olive to a very dark grey, but at any rate the IMA ones are too black. They could fly for your purposes, but a lighter green is more appropriate and easy and cheap enough to achieve.
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Nov 4, 2015 10:45:13 GMT -5
I've been using Hessen Antiques's Fieldgrey spray paint to paint my buckles, and they turn out really well, even makes the shiny E. German ones look presentable (and makes the symbol on it harder to see). www.hessenantique.com/Grey_Olive_Spray_Paint_p/p00005.htmEach can goes a very long way, longer than what the site says. With one can, I've managed to spray over 10 buckles, 2 mess kits, and a Stahlhelm, each with 2 coats and touch up, and there is still plenty left in the can. I'd say its definitely worth paying the few bucks more for their paint.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 4, 2015 16:42:07 GMT -5
So variation on the buckles would be the norm? I can see that a darker muted shade would make the design less pronounced which is a good thing when its wrong!
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Nov 4, 2015 18:53:13 GMT -5
From what I remember reading about buckles. In the pre-war, the were issued and used unpainted, and shiny, but early on and until the rest of the war, they were painted with the standard field gray.
Now, like the uniform fieldgrey, their probably a lot of variation of the actual shade, but paint fieldgrey is more darker green. While, uniform field grey is more grey. So I'd say a dark forest green could pass for it.
If you put any variation on your buckles in terms of shades. Do all the "Heer" ones in one shade, and your "SS" ones in another shade. Not that there is a standard Heer shade of and SS shade of fieldgray, but I'd say the slight difference would make the Heer and SS kits look like they got their own separate branch buckles from their respective supplies, therefore, more distinctive.
Aaaaand definitely blurring the emblem on the postwar buckles, haha.
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Nov 4, 2015 19:57:20 GMT -5
I'm no SS expert, but it seems they used unpainted, shiny steel or aluminum. All the originals or repros I've seen are that way, no paint.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 4, 2015 21:31:58 GMT -5
I had read that an effort to subdue the shiny buckles was made by both Heer and SS but like all things was not universally adopted or universally executed. It certainly makes sense for a frontline unit to do so. Even late late war photos show there were still a lot of shiney buckles within the masses of surrendered POWs but many of them may have been rear eschelon folks.
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Nov 4, 2015 22:23:17 GMT -5
I keep trying to think of ways to improve East German buckles... paint is certainly a start. But what about making a mold of just the logo from a Heer belt buckle, then cast that out of some compatible material and JB Weld it over the Hammer und Zirkel? Wouldn't take a ton of investment and once one had the mold made the castings could be sold around the community very cheaply but still pay off the initial setup costs.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 4, 2015 22:48:49 GMT -5
I have often thought the same thing. The resin plastic wouldn't be especially strong but attached to the east German belt it really wouldn't need to be! Such a mold would be fairly basic, require very little material for each cast and should last for several hundred pours.
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Nov 4, 2015 22:50:10 GMT -5
Maybe, you can also try to either make a "clean slate" with JB weld with a complete patch over, or you can do that, and add some art on top of it.
I'm perfectly fine with my fieldgrey painted E. German buckles. Paint really makes the difference. I also have two tropical belts with SS belt buckles (I both found for stupid cheap), and I just JB welded over the SS/Swastika, painted it. Kind of looks like its been welded over, with an actual metal welder and such.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 4, 2015 22:51:54 GMT -5
Dracul,
What thus far have you learned with regard to your helmet covers? How many do you reasonably think you can make from a yard of the splinter fabric? Which fabric choice did you go with and do you think it was the right choice. I need to make six or eight covers for my hokey helmets.
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Nov 4, 2015 23:13:48 GMT -5
Bleh, I'm getting to that! Check the cheapo helmet thread in a good few minutes!
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Nov 5, 2015 20:24:14 GMT -5
Back to belt buckle thing. This is what the Hessen Antique field grey does a WWI buckle and a E. German buckle, in which the designs have been unmodified. Up close, like this picture its obvious its not WWII, but away a bit, the design is going to blend into the rest of the buckle since there is no more shine, and the color is uniform throughout it. This what I did with some JB weld and this paint, to a cheap SS buckle and cheap tropical belt I scored for stupid cheap. One could easily do cleaner job of obscuring and covering the SS runes/Swastika (I honestly forgot what it had) and make it look like a good dome shape, and the paint obscured it even more. Side note, I didn't change my mind and plan on making SS loaner kits, but when I got two buckles for $5 bucks each, and two tropical ones for $10 each, thats two full, good, more proper belts that I spent no more than $30, you just can't pass that up, especially with how little elbow grease I put into it. Gotta go with the deal flow.
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Nov 5, 2015 21:36:38 GMT -5
The similarity of the design really helps the Kaiserzeit buckle. To me, the DDR one is still too far off to really work. Of course, in a pinch it would do just fine. But I do think playing with moldings is the way to make those really work-- that or attach a full repro buckle over the DDR one.
BTW, that paint looks authentic, but is definitely on the darker side of Gray-Green. Interestingly, my cheapo paint solution using Rust-Oleum camo with a poly topcoat is more like the lighter shades seen on many originals and repros. Either one beats the IMA black.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 5, 2015 22:52:51 GMT -5
From an iconic perspective when I think Kraut I think silver buckle so I would want to err on the side of lighter rather than darker. A mold would definitely be something to look into for those of us doing a lot of these. There are other items I thought about molding as well, assault badges, wound badges etc.
|
|
|
Post by schmitz on Nov 6, 2015 3:36:57 GMT -5
The buckles (as well as buttons) were always feldgrau afaik. Even the early aluminum ones were painted and if you get your hands on an original, it should have remnants of paint in the grooves. They just saw heavy use and, well, paint doesn't stick very well to aluminum... So raw recruit would have all feldgrau buttons but a guy on the front for a year or more would probably be missing a lot of paint.
|
|
|
Post by schmitz on Nov 6, 2015 3:40:55 GMT -5
The similarity of the design really helps the Kaiserzeit buckle. To me, the DDR one is still too far off to really work. Of course, in a pinch it would do just fine. But I do think playing with moldings is the way to make those really work-- that or attach a full repro buckle over the DDR one. BTW, that paint looks authentic, but is definitely on the darker side of Gray-Green. Interestingly, my cheapo paint solution using Rust-Oleum camo with a poly topcoat is more like the lighter shades seen on many originals and repros. Either one beats the IMA black. Agreed. I think the best bet however, is to go with the Weimar/Reichswehr belt buckle as they actually saw service in the Wehrmacht in WWII. This one:
And agreed again. That's definitely dark for Graugruen, looks more like Feldgrau Dunkel.
|
|