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Post by insterburger on Nov 17, 2015 18:30:47 GMT -5
I should add, when I bought mine it might have been as part of an order from these guys as I think I originally had three. I don't recall whether I ordered large or XL, but I do know that two fit me (I think I gave one of them away) and the third was tiny. So even if you order the "large" don't be surprised if you get some variation in sizes.
Probably experimenting with weak dye solutions isn't a bad idea. They do have a nice field-worn patina that you don't want to eliminate, but giving them a slightly greener tinge might help suspend disbelief and help them resemble HBT a bit more.
Drac, given the quality of what you're producing, I wouldn't recommend these so much to you (unless you need a good stout work jacket!) as they're not "all that much" like HBT tunics, but they seem to fit 2nd Bat's needs perfectly-- anyway you can see and decide for yourself. That said, these guys do have some other stuff that might be of interest, and their prices on everything are incredibly good. You definitely should check them out.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 17, 2015 19:28:33 GMT -5
I see on their site that they have SMLE slings and lots of other cool stuff that might be worth checking out. These Swiss work tunics appear to have the proper split in the back. If they truly are cotton I'm sure they will take dye although it would take some experimentation to come up with a proper feldgrau look. Buttons of course are wrong as are the epaulets but geeze these look pretty good. One thing I'm quite pleased with on my thrift shop acquisitions is they look to be wool (although in fact they are a polyester blend)
I have similar mustard colored shirts that make great stand ins for GI shirts.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Nov 17, 2015 20:55:16 GMT -5
Trust me, I know where you are coming from Insterburger, but I'd only be using these for stopgaps, since I only have 2 Drillich tunics made and my hobby time has been devoted elsewhere lately and will be for a bit (still got two other projects on the dining room table waiting to be finished). Its easier to extensively mod existing things like this and E. German tunics, just to have something, then to cycle them out with the more time consuming Drillich/HBT, and then trade or sell them away to someone looking to build loaner kits with lesser authenticity standards.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 17, 2015 21:33:06 GMT -5
I dug mine out of the garage (where I keep it as a work jacket) just to check on the details-- it is NOT a slit in the back, just a seam. There is a metal ID disc under the left pocket, but there are no flap buttons. If you need any more data or detail pics, let me know.
There is a ton wrong with these-- wrong epaulets, wrong buttons, wrong fabric, wrong color, no lower pockets, no pocket buttons, built-in belt loops, wrong cuffs, etc. It would be prohibitive to make these do any more than resemble German tunics. But if that's what you're looking for (and I think it's far to say 2nd Bat is) then these should be an extremely cost-effective solution. My only apology is that I didn't mention these earlier. I think these are perfect for 2nd Bat's needs, and Drac, I know you're building to a slightly different standard there, but IMHO I would not even use these as stopgaps for the NorthEast-- there are just so many infidelities, even a DDR conversion is better.
But if I were doing them for 2nd Bat's needs, I'd just add lower pockets, pocket buttons, and call it a day. Each tunic has nine of the aluminum buttons, so by sacrificing one you'd have fabric and buttons enough for two. A little creativity and you could probably stretch three pocket sets for every tunic cannibalized. Either way you're looking at under $5.00 a pop. Not too bad!
EDIT: Having a look at the ID disc, it looks like removing it will leave a hole about the size of a dime on the left breast pocket. Worth knowing.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 17, 2015 22:06:37 GMT -5
I will look more closely at the pictures with a more critical eye. I didn't notice anything resembling an ID tag on the pocket. There was mention in the reviews that apparently there are some variations. Plastic vs metal buttons being the key thing mentioned. The pictures showed what to me looked like a correct slit in the back? The notion that whatever I ended up with would have a uniformity (even if universally wrong) has some appeal to me.
At our current events there is so much variation in terms of German impressions (tunics, smocks, assorted camo, SS, FJ and Heer, camo patterns, helmet treatment) that I find that distracting! yikes ! We all have our own little bug a boos!
Since these would most closely represent HBT tunics I would think striving for a Reed green shade would be the thing to target although I find at least I have to be awfully close or the lense very focused to see fabric types and weaves.
On my thrift shirts I added pleats to the pockets, different buttons, collar litzen and eagle insignia and epaulets with rank insignia on a few shirts. Most have the darker green collars and dark epaulets although for authenticity in Western Europe the plain grey would have been both easier and more common. I find the accented earlier tunics more iconic and for my casual players more easily identifiable as German!
Essentially my players see my even as an extension of the Medal of Honor or WW2 based video game they like to play. Very different audience than the bulk of the folks on here!
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Nov 17, 2015 22:33:34 GMT -5
Modding E. German tunics would be better? Well then!
I was willing to put into the work to correct most of that though. Would even be making epaulets from the one sacrificed jacket, swap in proper buttons, make a back slit, correct the cuffs! Sounds like a lot of work, but its a bunch of small things.
In all honesty, thats actually about the same amount of work I'm going to be putting into my E. German tunics. Going to give them the mostly same treatment as just mentioned (no need to make lower pockets with DDR tunics), and then go further to turn them into mock M36's with the green collars and epaulets using scrap HBT material or dark green wool felt.
I know either or would be wrong and even after all the work, will still be wrong, but that doesn't mean I can't do things to them to drastically improve their looks.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 17, 2015 23:43:51 GMT -5
As they say in Noo Yawk, "Ya gadda do what ya gadda do." And to be clear, I was not advocating DDR conversions, but saying these work tunics are even farther off the mark than that (although cheaper than just about anything). At the end of the day, I don't think there's any way to cheaply get a good looking German tunic-- except for the ones you're sewing up from scratch, which are incredible. Anyway, everyone has their own take on things, and I certainly respect the vision you're trying to realize, but to my mind putting money and effort into something that will never be close to right seems like throwing good money-- and effort-- after bad (and trust me, I've done it-- Not in this hobby as much as in other stuff!). Perhaps we just have different problems-- here in the NE the problem isn't lack of loaner kits, but getting people to fill them. We have yet to have an event here where we were not able to get everyone who showed up into impressions, most of which were quite good (see the D-Day thread for one-- at least half, and at some points of the game the majority of Germans were "conscripts"). For my money, I'd rather put together 2 or 3 quality loaner impressions that can travel anywhere than four or five that won't cut it on every field. But that's my money, not yours. And your money (and time) is yours, and not mine... so "do what ya gadda do." Oh BTW, if you will be cutting and sewing on these, you probably shouldn't be cutting epaulets from other tunics but from wool. HBT shoulder devices were apparently never a factory-produced item. There are some "field made" examples, but they're so rare as to be truly "wrong." If you're going to bother swapping buttons and such on these, then that would be at least as visually important, and arguably moreso.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Nov 18, 2015 7:11:07 GMT -5
Well, that last part is definitely good info. I always thought HBT tunics had epaulets made out of the same HBT material. Which is confusing since Hessen Antique sells their HBT tunics with HBT-made epaulets.
UPDATE: So, Kel's Military got back to me, and it seems like the only had one left of each of the sizes I ordered (two med and two large). I decided to accept refund from them for those and with the two left over buckles I had, and that I'd try my hand at making the belts myself from raw material. Ordered belt hooks from ATF, waxed linen thread from Landser Outfitters, two 1-3/4in leather straps from Noc Bay Trading Company, and I already have black dye.
The straps come in at 48 inches. Off the top of my head (and not at home to properly measure) I'd figure I can cut off 7-8in and turn this piece into the tongue (I know its supposed to be a little over 10in). With the fold-over to keep the hook in place in mind, I think it will be able to fit up to a 37-38in waist. If this idea works out, I can make larger runs by ordering one extra strap, in tongue thickness, and using that for the tongue specifically.
Waxed linen thread is at $3 for a 25yd spool ($25 for a ten pack). I think a single 25yd spool will go a long way here, and the dye I have will do the same. With those being cheap as is, the only major costs are the Buckle, Hook, and leather straps. For a that estimated 37-28in full belt: $12 for the strap, $5 for the hook, and $5 for the buckles = $27 total for a good leather belt. No cheap repro or questionable Eastern Bloc "leather." While this is all before shipping, it will only increase the costs of each item a buck or two when ordered a lot of, and larger belts will only be a full bucks more.
I know, it seems that the costs of repros, compared to the these homemade ones, brings up the "why bother, just spend the few more bucks" question. I'd say in retort, that the few bucks saved from each one, for numerous loaner kits, makes it worth it.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 18, 2015 21:20:34 GMT -5
The other factor some don't consider is that these transformational projects are recreational. When I have a vision and jump in and do it. Sometimes the results are disastrously bad and sometimes (to my eyes" they come out way better than I expected.
I just had a group of young teens that are coming to Losheim Gap come by and try on some of my set ups. These included my homemade tunics, mostly east German web gear, Dracul breadbags and camo covered plastic helmets.
They had no clue how bad they were and felt like extras in a Spielberg movie! Everything is relative and they are pumped to be going to an Airsoft event different than any airsoft event they have ever been to.
I wish I had 20 zelts however as it no doubt is going to be raining cats and dogs. Winds today got up to 70 MPH. Shockingly the plastic helmets didn't blow off!
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Nov 18, 2015 21:33:44 GMT -5
Well, I guess it will be time to see how well the mock ups hold up for you! Hope it does.
A lot of this is recreational for me actually. I haven't really toted this around much here, but I do consider myself an artist. With sewing, costuming/cosplaying, and prop making (and now some period uniform and gear!) as my artistic focus and specialty. Just don't ask me to draw or do music, though, it won't blow you away, but it will make you want to blow yourself away, haha.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 18, 2015 21:39:41 GMT -5
I would further add that Drac will be getting a MUCH higher grade of leather than the urine-tanned water buffalo {or whatever) that comes standard on cheap Asian repros. Yes, they stand up fine to the limited work we put them through, but put up against "real" leather the difference is obvious-- in another post we talked about the BW belts, there's a world of difference between them and the China specials, and it's easily visible from a distance. I assume Drac's leather source is much closer to the Euro quality, and I think with the level of workmanship I've seen from him his $27 belts will be worth twice that.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Nov 18, 2015 21:48:37 GMT -5
I'm still unsure of quality of what I'm getting, to be honest. I have a good feeling about it, but leather working, even something as simple as sewing a fold and two pieces of leather together, is still very much a new field and skill set for me.
Again, I have a good feeling about it coming from, what it seems, a good ol' American Mom and Pop ran shop. I can't say it will be Euro quality, but it should be better than the aforementioned cheap Asian "leather" and DEFINITELY is a lot better than that rubbery fake leather thats on a lot of Chinese repro gear.
So, we shall see soon!
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 19, 2015 12:44:48 GMT -5
When my father swept through Western Europe with the American Army he was essentially a cowboy from Colorado who was raised on a working ranch with his 10 brothers and sisters. One comment I heard him make numerous times is how impressed he was with the quality of German leather work. While he was speaking specifically about harnesses for the horse drawn wagons and carts I'm sure that quality carried over to web gear as well.
As a young man I enjoyed working with leather and made boots, bags and even a few jackets in the vein of native American wear or mountain men. I enjoyed it a lot and still have some of my leather working tools.
For my costumes I buy appropriate high quality, thick belts at thrift shops and adapt and modify them to be more suitable. I wish there was a reasonable source for UN modified hides but yikes! The costs here are outrageous. Dracul, often with leather you have to both glue and sew to create a good seam. Obviously a normal sewing machine is not robust enough for leather which is a challenge.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Nov 19, 2015 13:38:38 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip on the glue, what should I look for?
Yeah, my machine is just a home sewing one, its definitely no industrial machine. I tried using it on thin "dress" leather once, and it wrecked my needles, even my titanium ones just shattered!
We do have leather working tools in the apartment, so outside of this glue, I should be good.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 19, 2015 14:13:42 GMT -5
Without the glue the needle and thread tend to rip and tear the leather.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 19, 2015 18:42:17 GMT -5
There are special glues that are just for leather, a quick web search should find one that best suits your purposes.
One technique I've heard of being used to stitch very thick leather (like German belts) without proper industrial equipment is to start by gluing the parts together, then drilling the holes (!) with a very fine drill bit, and then threading it with the heavy waxed thread. Never done this myself so I cannot vouch for it, but it sounds like it would work and be easier than almost any other method.
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Jerry-ADK
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Post by Jerry-ADK on Nov 20, 2015 6:52:29 GMT -5
Hey guys, When you make leather items such as belts or y straps the flesh side should be out, not the smooth side. Special leather for harness making was used that had a finer finish on the flesh side. it was also waxed as a finish. As for tools, Tandy or Weaver Leather sell diamond shaped awls which will easily puncture all but the heaviest leather for hand stitching. Also work veg tan leather wet, it will be easier to puncture with a awl.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
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Post by Dracul on Nov 20, 2015 7:30:51 GMT -5
Yeah, I read smooth side in thing. Apparently, it was to reduce friction between tunic and belt and that would ruin the tunic from normal wear.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 20, 2015 12:11:49 GMT -5
My chinese purchased splinter camo smocks have no tan accents like I requently see in Zelts and pictures. Sadly the pattern is rather Dull even when brand new. I like the bolder pattern but I dont think anyone offers it in a smock?
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Post by insterburger on Nov 27, 2015 15:55:53 GMT -5
BTW, I got hold of one of those cheapo "Gau Essen" belt buckles. They are so bad, they're good. The design is so poorly imprinted that the lettering is essentially illegible, so it could say "Gau Essen," or "Meine Ehre heist Treue," or "Eat at Joe's" for that matter. The biggest issue with it is that it's finished in a cheap chrome that makes it look like the bumper on a 50's Cadillac. A coat of spray paint and that problem should be solved.
If you're looking for a decent repro at a good price, keep looking. But if you need an ultra-budget SS buckle for loaner kits, this would be it.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Nov 28, 2015 0:25:39 GMT -5
Yeah, I still have to be ultra budget for my loaner kits. Anything possible war-time is whats fine for me. I got five of these just chilling right now, ready to be "sanitized" and painted.
And gotta get around to putting together these leather belts, too.
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Post by ssgjoe on Dec 5, 2015 21:24:13 GMT -5
Photos of te buckles insterburger
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