Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 3, 2015 19:39:44 GMT -5
You're welcome!
Right, right, because the bottle green stuff got too hard/costly for them to make, making the way for the M40 tunics, so logically, the insignia would follow.
But about the litzen, if that was changed in 42-43, wouldn't it be more correct to do the early war Heer style? Since my 40-42 is my target for my loaner kits?
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Post by insterburger on Nov 3, 2015 20:11:29 GMT -5
If you're looking to make your impressions 1940-correct, you need early-style Litzen/eagles. But as far as I know they really didn't have four-pocket HBT tunics then. If you're applying these badges to the HBT, the late war style is better-- those tunics were not that common at all, but were much less so before at least 43-44. If you're doing woolens, that's different. If you're doing Drillich tunics with no pockets or just the hip pockets, then no insignia at all is probably best, especially earlier in the war.
Nice thing is with the size of this run, you'll have more than you need of each no matter what.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 3, 2015 20:21:33 GMT -5
Well, I'm only doing Drillich until I get the pattern and process down to the best of my ability. After that, I'm switching over the HBT tunics. The HBT tunics will be the standard.
I guess that means its best to do early late-war/end of mid-war with my loaner kits. And I'll just keep this in mind until/if I can source wool for cheap.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 4, 2015 20:20:36 GMT -5
I'd skip insignia completely on straight-up drillich.
Having those in quantity will be a big benefit to summertime games.
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Post by ssgjoe on Nov 4, 2015 22:51:48 GMT -5
^^^^^
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Post by insterburger on Nov 8, 2015 20:34:50 GMT -5
It just occurred to me-- in addition to collar tabs and eagles for both Heer and SS, what this fabric pattern should have is both Heer and SS cap devices. Being able to cheaply apply insignia to M43 or M38 caps would save considerable expense, and make replacing the less-than-ideal plastic helmets a much more viable option for you.
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Post by ssgjoe on Nov 8, 2015 21:24:38 GMT -5
I still say to get the caps. The authenticity is a bigger advantage than "oh look I have a helmet"
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 9, 2015 0:29:11 GMT -5
I personally would rather see my "bad guys" in helmets than field caps but that's just my "gameplay, tactical" mindset than my reenactor, authenticity mindset. It's not that Germans didn't wear their field caps into combat but the helmet gives a more "frontline" look to my mind.
Smocks and helmet covers were not the norm even for Heer combat units but let's face it they looked badass!
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Post by insterburger on Nov 9, 2015 9:08:41 GMT -5
It's a difference between putting a premium on look or feel. I think we can tend to dismiss the latter a bit too hastily, as a plastic helmet may look cool to the guy who is shooting at you, but when it's sitting on your head it will always feel like you're in costume, not in combat.
It reminds me of a story about the making of "Gone With the Wind." For the big ball scene, David O. Selznick pulled out all the stops, putting even his extras in well-made costumes, with all of the female extras-- and there were dozens-- being given fully accurate bloomers and underskirts under their antebellum hoop skirts. One of his underlings came to him and pointed out that all of that reproduction underwear costs a lot of money, it will not be visible on camera, and "no one will ever know" if they just skipped it and let the extras wear modern undies under their skirts. His answer was, "But they'll know." He realized that to get an authentic performance, it was important to immerse his actors as well as possible into the scene, and that feeling clothed, not costumed, was an important part of that. It's a lesson that I think should not be lost on us.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 9, 2015 15:15:28 GMT -5
Lovely point and great story. I really couldn't agree with it more and unlike most of the countries airsofters "Frankly my dear, we give a damn". I fear a lot of the people on this site won't get the reference!
I'm just trying to grow the hobby and the stitch nazi, obsessive, perfection approach isn't working.
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Post by ssgjoe on Nov 9, 2015 17:10:47 GMT -5
But if you have two options that cost roughly the same price and one is pretty accurate and the other isn't..I think it'd be a no brainer to take the more accurate option. I'd much rather wear a field cap than a plastic helmet. You are trying to immerse those that are in the loaner kits and you want them to feel a sense of "being there" and to love that feeling. If you give them a plastic helmet, they might not really get that immersed and it very well could affect how much they enjoyed their first experience with WWII airsoft.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 9, 2015 19:44:14 GMT -5
I understand the immersion aspect, however.....
I have one huge problem with the caps. It will cost more to get a wide array of sizes to be able to properly fit everyone I MIGHT have in a group of people renting out kits, than it would be to get a solid line of plastic helms with covers in a more one-size fit all manner. So, if I wanted to be able to equip ten Germans, who knows how many hat sizes and of each size I need to get (which, ten Heer Soldaten is my current goal for German loaner kits). Proper, snug fitting caps and matching heads don't come in small, medium, and large unfortunately. I would need to worry about the guy with a size 7, 7-1/8, 7-1/4, 7-3/8, 7-1/2, 7-5/8, 7-3/4, etc etc.
I'd need to order a hat store worth of caps!
I totally agree that you definitely gotta go for a nice proper fitting M43 field cap over a plastic helm for a personal kit. Hell, I even want to get more field caps for each kit to use for garrison, where size doesn't matter, but for now, these plastic ones w/ covers are the best thing I got going.
So, for me, I feel its more of a logistical issue, than a "look" issue.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 9, 2015 21:00:19 GMT -5
Easy. Get larger size caps and get a few pins. A pin in the back of a cap is 1,000 times better than a toy helmet. Heck, you could even sew in Velcro straps to make the caps adjustable and they'd still be way better. If our intention with loaner gear is to grow the hobby, we need to remember that we may get one shot and only one shot at impressing someone who tries WW2 Airsoft, and I think things that skew toward Halloween costume standards are not going to attract the kind of people we need to attract.
Anyway, not sure I have much more to say on this. We may have to agree to disagree.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 9, 2015 22:32:33 GMT -5
The great thing about these threads and this discussion is getting an appreciation for the passion and perspective of other people within our community. Interestingly the person we're pulling in with loaner\ rental gear is very different than we are. I don't think any of us at any point in our progression of interest in the hobby would have gone along with a full loaner set up frankly no matter how good it was. It's just no our make up. If it was at all hokey or compromised probably most of us would be seriously put off. With that said, the typical loaner walk on is a buddy of the initially interested player or a small group of players who thought a WW2 themed event might be cool. Typically set ups far less developed than what Dracul is putting together and what I have generally made available went to folks who were thrilled with what they got. Ignorance really is bliss! My goal is to have them good enough that the passionate advocates who play don't have their emmersive experience ruined.
The BF US guys at Jump to Destiny to my knowledge had no idea that the M42s were tweaked Safari jackets and that a half dozen of the netted, scrimmed and leather chinstrapped M1 helmets were actually plastic and the mustard wool shirts were brushed cotton. Since the event was non stop, role play, sign in, unit assignment, billeting, training, mission briefing. Mission rehearsal and then non stop, mission oriented combat there really wasn't any time to examine each others gear or query players about their underwear or shades of khaki.
They came to an event that focused on what it felt like to be involved in a real mission as opposed to what it looked like. The 30 plus opportunities that loaner \ rental gear posed made a huge difference to the ambiance and feel of the events.
My weekend after Thanksgiving event will be 90% rental gear and while little of it is perfect I really don't expect any complaints.
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Post by ssgjoe on Nov 10, 2015 17:10:49 GMT -5
I think the thing is you could be purchasing accurate headgear inexpensively, yet inaccurate headgear is purchased. Just because some people don't care if the helmets are plastic doesn't mean there aren't those that do care. I'd just play it safe and get field caps. However you already purchased plastic helmets..so I'm not saying you'll have to replace them immediately but it'd be wise I think to replace them with field caps at some point.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 20, 2015 22:42:28 GMT -5
Drac-- good news on this front. Going through some stuff for Aachen I found an unmounted early war breast eagle and some of the ATF defect generic Litzen. These will be much easier to scan than items already on uniforms, and the Litzen will be full-length and will mount better. Once they're digital I can play with them in Photoshop to fix the Litzen colors and mod out the Eagle's colors to make it late war style. If you like I can also blank out the swazis here (or better, replace them with an innocuous shape that at a distance won't attract attention, but up close isn't naughty).
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Nov 20, 2015 23:01:46 GMT -5
Sounds great to hear!
Either the Iron Cross or a simple "+" on the breast eagles would be good for me.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 21, 2015 2:19:42 GMT -5
What would be ideal would be to have both with Swaztikas and without since the plan is to create a mix of insignia that will print onto a swath of fabric. What besides litzen and bevo breast eagles are you planning to do?
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Post by insterburger on Nov 21, 2015 7:42:30 GMT -5
No prob, Drac. I will experiment-- perhaps a simple X would look even better (and have additional implications).
Yes, the plan as I understand it is to do at least: -- Normal breast eagles -- "sanitized" breast eagles -- Heer Litzen -- W-SS Tabs -- W-SS Sleeve eagles
Do you want "sanitized" W-SS eagles? to me it seems kind of silly... I mean, if you're going SS, you have more to explain than a swazi. Still, easy enough to do.
Given the size of the pattern, I'll probably scan the following too and let Drac decide: -- Heer Cap trapezoid -- LW breast eagle -- Anything else I have that Drac wants or heeds a request for
Seems the vast majority of the pattern should be Heer variants (with a mix of true and "sanitized" eagles), but there will be an embarrassment of riches once this is printed, so probably a smattering of other stuff isn't a bad idea, just because why not and it might come in handy some day. But that's all Drac's decision at the end of the day.
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Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
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Post by Dracul on Nov 21, 2015 11:06:26 GMT -5
Your're right, vast majority will be Heer.
W-SS tabs and sleeve eagles, I'll that you up to you guys. Since I don't plan on having and W-SS kits. I think I was just going to pass the W-SS stuff and standard Heer Breast Eagles off you guys anyway.
I'm all for Heer things right off the bat, including cap trapezoid. "Sanitized" Luftwaffe breast eagles and cap trapezoids would be nice, but I don't exactly have a use for a full run of those for a good while.
Let me do the organization of the insignia on what will be uploaded to Spoonflower. I know how they work and I could use what I used before as a base. Seeing how I should be able to do ten rows of different insignia. I can easily do: -2 rows of sanitized breast eagles (total 14) -2 rows of normal breast eagles (total 14) -1-2 rows of Heer litzen (not sure yet on how many total pairs I can fit in one row) -1 row of W-SS collar tabs (not sure yet on how many total pairs I can fit in one row) -1 row of W-SS Sleeve eagle (if the same size as Heer breast eagles, then 7) -1 row of Heer cap trapezoids (not sure how many yet either)
I know I said 10-11 rows in an earlier post, but I'm going to say 10 for now, and if I could fit another row in, I'll do another row of Heer litzen.
But lets not neglect that even if we are "limited" on how much we can put onto one yard, this whole concept is a grand money saver and nothing stopping us from making another set of these. Maybe the next run could have rows of insignia that I only had one row of in the first, have more Heer cap trapezoids, more W-SS stuff for you guys and, hell, even LW stuff just to fill up the space.
And any extra insignia I have left over from setting myself up, I can pass to the next.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 21, 2015 13:00:40 GMT -5
Since Luffwaffe is extremely popular I would definitely suggest you include it. I also thought some of those Deutscher Volksturm Wehrmacht armbands would be nice. Though not the right fabric maybe some iron cross second order diagonal ribbons for the odd tunic would be nice. Actually for my purposes the Volksturm deal would be a great impression item. Buy an appropriate tattered overcoat a subdued v neck sweater and maybe a field cap or period correct civilian hat and pin on an armband and some of my local dads would fit right in!
Drac you could absolutely retail these items.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Nov 21, 2015 13:15:07 GMT -5
The Volksturm armbands was going to be something separate from this.
And to be honest, it would greatly be dependent on whether or not we found some way to get the paint to stick on the plastic helms. Unfortunately though, I'd have to print the Volksturm armbands on their silk. A pattern I've uploaded had was mostly deep red and pure black, silk was the only material I found (after a few swatches) that printed out unfaded.
Luftwaffe is popular, yes, and I do plan on doing LW Field Division kits in the future, just not anytime soon.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 21, 2015 14:23:34 GMT -5
Oh, yes, I was just going to scan the individual insignia at high res, do the corrections and modifications, then pass them off to you to figure out what you want to do with them. Figure I'll scan everything I have that might potentially be useful, and then at least you'll have it.
I totally agree that the VS armbands should be a completely separate thing, and that's something that I think will be extremely useful throughout the hobby-- I have a good repro of that (and my top-quality scanner) so if you want I can run that off here too. Nice thing about Volkssturm, just the armband is sufficient in a pinch, but add a smattering of black or grey cheapo M43 caps in larger sizes (with or without insignia), and you're all set. Any other extras you can supply in terms of gear or uniform items are just gravy.
Just how faded does it get on anything other than silk? Depending on the price differential (and the oddness of having silk armbands), do you think it might work to increase the depth of the color/contrast to create at least decent results on cotton? I don't know, I'm asking.
What resolution do you think will be ideal? My scanner goes up to a silly level of detail (I think 3200 DPI, which would be total overkill), but I don't know what will be best on your end.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 21, 2015 16:33:17 GMT -5
My original Volks Armband was on a very light cotton material and while roughly seventy years old was stored in my dad's souvenir cigar box so never exposed to light. The red is frankly pretty dull and certainly not very vibrant at all. I would rather see it on more correct material and a bit dull than vibrant but on silk.
Dad also grabbed a bunch of the classic nazi party pins and three German field metals. An iron cross an Infanty assault badge and an armored assault badge. I always thought about doing a mold of them and making some copies.
Resin can have super fine mettalic dust mixed in which would make then seem more metal than plastic. I did some Garand Gas assemblies that way and they came out amazing but it was expensive and probably led to the premature destruction of my latex molds which only managed about 100 parts.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 21, 2015 19:22:40 GMT -5
That's awesome that your dad picked up all that stuff. It's interesting what different Americans decided to bring home as souvenirs-- some of it is now more valuable in the collectable market, some less, but everyone had their reasons for taking what they did. The sad part is how many families don't care at all about their legacy... if we're lucky, they put it on the market through a dealer or a yard sale, but sadly a lot of this stuff ends up in the trash.
I think you're spot on as to how to handle the armbands-- just adjust the color to be as bright and vibrant as possible, and let the printing process (on appropriate fabric) "antique" them as it will.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 21, 2015 19:37:17 GMT -5
If you'd like I'll send you a picture of the German souvenirs he grabbed along with what I always thought were Soviet medals although on second glance I think at least one might be Luffwaffe?
In his cigar box he also had a champaign cork he said was from the night Paris was liberated which he said was the most exhilarating day of his life. Even more festive than VE Day (at least for him) Hmmmmmm? Probably stories there his son didn't need to hear!
Since he worked for SHAEF he had to help arrange an impromptu parade reviewing stand and they modified A British Ballie Bridge for it. All the available Brass watch as French and American soldiers marched past. He said French General Charles DeGaulle was beyond intoxicated. He was so drunk according to my dad he had to be held on two sides to remain standing.
liberating Paris was probably tactically unsound but it had great impact on morale. Huge derailment of this thread, sorry!
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Nov 21, 2015 23:56:54 GMT -5
On the Volksturm armband. I don't need a scan, since Wikipedia has a VERY nice one uploaded that I don't even need to mess with a lot. Just sizing: On topic of printing looking like its faded. Got to go off topic and off WWII in general to prove my point and explain more. Sorry in advance, but oddly enough, the colors are nearly the same of my pattern and the armband. This is the pattern I made, and the color hex codes I used was specifically for crimson and pure black, and double checked this on different monitors before uploading. Yes, the color exactness was super important for this project: Surprisingly, something this simple is impossible to find in stores. Anyway, below I had this printed on three different fabrics: I ordered three swatches, and that was the lucky number with the last one. The bottom right here was the basic cotton. No, its not "faded" it just looks that way since their basic cotton can't do vibrant colors. That "been through the wash over 100 times" look, where the crimson became pink and the black became grey, is exactly how it was printed and delivered (why you HAVE to do swatches, ALWAYS). Was pretty mad about that.... Next swatch attempt was the top right, which printed on their Organic Cotton Sateen Ultra, still wasn't there. I felt the red was just red and the black was faded to dark grey. The left and final swatch attempt was their Silky Faille. Which came out exactly as I envisioned it!! Its not quite like normal silk, where it has a noticeable shimmer to it, but the color matched my uploaded pattern exactly. For me, I feel the color is more important than the material for this one. Especially when such vibrant and darker colors are used. Basic cotton works well for more earth like colors, like Splinter pattern.
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Post by insterburger on Nov 22, 2015 9:04:58 GMT -5
Goes to show, we all have our different aesthetics. I'd gladly give up a bit of vibrance in the color to get a more realistic fabric finish. I'd have to see it in person, but that upper right one looks just fine to me. To each their own I guess.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 22, 2015 12:43:20 GMT -5
Drac, for the Volksrum armband, the red on the real armband is spot on with the reds on the right. For your other project a vibrant red was obviously essential but it certainly isn't should you decide to do these on your cotton run.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Nov 22, 2015 14:42:09 GMT -5
Fair enough.
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