2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 3, 2016 22:23:10 GMT -5
Like many others on this board I finally decided to take on a project I have been thinking about for a long time. The "German Garand". Following the most logical approach I am using the M14 mechanicals for this project.
After studying every picture available and tutorials from other efforts it's obvious that a number of visual infidelities are going to have to be made but my hope is to end up with a replica that first and foremost functions flawlessly can be disasembled or upgraded and is a simple enough build that I am able and willing to lend it out or rent it at local events.
I have gleened a lot of experience reshaping stocks and am confident I can create a look that while far from perfect side by side with the actual weapon will be easily recognized as the rifle it replicates.
I'll take pictures as I go.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 5, 2016 22:25:24 GMT -5
Borrowing from other ideas I have seen and taking advantage of parts on hand I cut the forearm off of a spare M14 stock and will use it as the G43s long upper handguard. I decided on a length of 10 1/4 inches. (Note from further along in the build. I discovered that I needed to add two more inches to the length). Once in place it was obviously too tall so I cut a 1/4 inch strip down each side. These strips will be reused to fill the gap left for the M14 charging handle and to provide more stock height for the M14 below the left side of the receiver. These strips will be blended in with dynaglass. I used my dremel for these cuts with a thin blade knocking off the melted slag before it hand a chance to harden too much. I also used masking tape to guide and protect the cuts. I also used the dremel to cut the M14 receiver group side to side just behind where the M14 heat shield would meet. This leaves the M14 hop up housing solidly in place. The receiver group comes off with several tiny screws from underneath.
I was going to use a section of the M14 handguard as part of my G43 receiver group outer housing but felt it was too large. I had an AK cover in my parts bins and cut a 1/8th to 1/4 inch strip off the base of it. I will also cut the rear so it is 90 degrees at the rear of the receiver group not angled like the AK rear. About two inches were removed from the forward end which matches up with my M14 receiver group cut.
Upon inspecting G43 pictures the stock thins slightly right at the mag well and so I cut an appropriate shape on both sides. I was delighted to discover that the M14 plastic stock is mostly solid through this area so minimal filling and cosmetic work will be needed here. The line created looked very G43ish! It also left the 70 round shortened M14 mags pretty spot on size wise. The gap between the trigger guard and magazine is not as great as on a G43 but by dremeling off the exposed portion of the M14 tab safety the visual gap suddenly looks larger. Incidentally though slightly more awkward the safety can still remain functional and simply blends into the trigger guard when "off"
For the front stock band I was in a quandary but decided to adapt and utilize the M14 ferrule and gas assembly. I cut the lower tube 1 1/4 inches from the base and threw the removed part into the bin for who knows what future project. The inner spring mounted tube was left in place and slides into the ferrule and lower section of the tip of the M14 stock. This modified part will be lathered in resin paste and then shaped appropriately as a G43 front stock band. I will take care to leave the barrel hole unmolested so it slides on and off and will leave access to the bottom hole that allows the tiny hex nut to hold this critical part firmly in place. (Note: Later build efforts revealed that this cut would have been better visually at 3/4 of an inch, not 1 1/4" S)
An elevated front site will be easy to fabricate from assorted bits and parts in my "possibles" bin. Two days into this project and it is taking shape nicely.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Mar 6, 2016 9:20:15 GMT -5
Some more info and pics from 2ndBat's project here:
I put in a few more hours this morning on my M14 AEG to G43 conversion and truth be told this is a two weekend project. It will be far from perfect but based on experience with the Garands building 3 to 6 at a time would end up being similar time requirements. Lots of dremel cutting into the M14 components. (Stocks and receiver group.) Though so probably an overly optimistic statement! For the front stock band I have used the M14 gas assembly and ferrule. Some cutting followed by some resin paste work, sanding, painting etc. and it will look decent. Be held firm in place with the same hex nut and cost only time as compared with buying the actual part. Other parts like the front and rear site, receiver group cover and assorted bits are all modified items from the Robison scrap bin. They will be cosmetically tweaked with resin paste to "look more the part" Conceivably these parts once finalized could be molded or set up for 3D printing by someone? I honestly feel pretty decent about this. The lower stock in numerous places will be heightened and tweaked and the grip area rounded. I will remove the butt plate flap and smooth out the inner butt plate and trap door with resin paste and make it appear larger like the G43 butt cup.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 6, 2016 12:15:13 GMT -5
Thank you once again Dracul for posting the pictures. The pictures above give a rough idea what it will eventually look like. Today is resin paste day where my lower stock height will be raised considerably and the receiver group and rear sight will get filled in a shaped. On the left rear of the stock two thin blocks of metal will be attached around the selector switch to simulate / function as a scope mount.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 6, 2016 16:11:37 GMT -5
Be prepared to go through multiple cutting wheels and just maybe a dremel burn out as you tackle this project. Lots of cutting. The modified M14 gas assembly into a front stock band looked a bit long so I cut the lower tube to one inch. (In hindsight I wish I had gone down to 3/4 inch but I left it at an inch) Because of the M14 barrel location it will look somewhat off no matter how creative you get but I also was able to epoxy and resin paste in the front sling hardware which mounts vertically on the left side of the stock band.
Because I filled several areas in the M14 stock with dyna glass I also inserted some lead weights. To balance things I will mount some in the butt stock area taking care to leave plenty of room for a battery. Resin paste glopped into the hollow plastic stocks and veneered on the outside can create a very convincing texture and look a lot like laminated wood. The G43s were almost entirely laminated wood although many had bakelight upper handguards.
My resin paste efforts typically require three or four layers of application / shaping / sanding and final finish work before they begin to look right. I build up the stock heights with the gun assembled putting latex between seams that have to separate. Disassembly however is always dramatic!
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 6, 2016 21:25:45 GMT -5
Two layers of resin paste applied to the significantly alterred lower stock. Once dry and rough sanded I will remount the internals and with everything in place do the upper resin paste work. At this stage of course everything looks dreadfully bad.
The good news is very little in the way of materials costs have been involved. A boneyard CYMA M14 for $70.00 a 1/4 f a can of resin dyna glass at $14.00 and $10.00 worth of cutting wheels. Sand paper and stains along with a pack of four shorty M14 mags and a sling and this guy should be field able for under $150.00!
Time wise I was overly optimistic thinking I could do it in two weekends but three should do it!
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Mar 8, 2016 18:59:34 GMT -5
Update from 2nd Bat:
Today's was sculpting day. With the receiver group slopped roughly into shape with dynaglass. I used cutting wheels. Dremel Sanders and tiny shapers as well as a surface sander to further the illusion. Guided by excellent references pictures from Google. Once done the rifle really started to take shape. This effor always reveals multiple gaps in the resin fill and areas that need additional shaping. These were addressed and are now drying. Finish work on them should be relatively minor although typically this work reveals other spots needing attention. From there front and rear sights need to be installed and I still need to do the front stock band and butt plate details. In addition I plan to lengthen the shorty magazines slightly. (As long as I can without interfering with the angled insertion typical of an M14 mag.). I will also add external features to the magsidewalls more representative of a G43 mag. These 70 round shorty magazines are a Godsend for this project.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 8, 2016 19:21:36 GMT -5
Thanks as always Drac for posting up todate pictures. This was a relatively quick custom as I believe it will be field able tomorrow. No doubt there will be minor issues to address but it will be 98% done by this time on Weds. Only 400,000 G43s were produced which is a relatively small number when it comes to WW2 main battle weapons. It was intended along with the STG44 to completely replace the KAR 98 bolt action rifle but of course it never did.
Initially efforts to create a semi automatic main battle rifle failed miserably due to unrealistic restrictions placed on the designers by the German War Department. The Russian SVT 38 and 40 and the American M1 Garand of course were the main motivators to get these built.
The ultimate manufacturer succeeded with the design by finally ignoring the order not drill a gas port through the barrel as was used in the Garand and SVT40. The actual G43 held 10 rounds in its detachable magazines and performed quite well. This replica will be a nice supplement to my German arms room.
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Post by volkssturm on Mar 8, 2016 20:42:23 GMT -5
That was an oddity of the pre-war thinking. The original requirement for the Garand was that it wasn't to have a gas port drilled in the barrel, resulting in the first Garands having a "gas trap" on the muzzle. Fortunately, it was quickly recognized as a bad idea and the powers that be said "drill gas ports." Apparently the thinking was that putting a hole in the barrel would bring erosion problems.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 8, 2016 21:04:46 GMT -5
I didn't know the reasoning behind avoiding a hole in the barrel and have to hand it to the folks at Walter who had the courage to defy the directive. The STG 44 recognized as the first true Assault rifle. The FJ 42 (an impressive weapon even by todays standards and the G43 were all well executed weapons. They would have made a big difference if fielded in large numbers.
To keep things honest I plan to always have most of my German players armed with rifles that have to be cocked each time. Interestingly one of the design requirements for the G43 was that if the semi automatic operation failed it should be easy and quick to cock manually. The placement of the bolt on top and angled to the left would make manual action by a right hander quite easy. A natural for a cheap springer! Wish China could get on that. Imagine a quality G43 springer on Parr (quality and price) with the little carbines!
We'd have an easy time fielding a German force with mostly cock each time rifles.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Mar 9, 2016 8:02:41 GMT -5
The back-up cocking method was something that was actually canned in the final make. The G41 and other experimental ones tried to execute that, but it caused a lot of problems. Walther ditched that idea for their G43 design, despite orders from German high command, and created the rifle that was elected to be made and put into service.
One over-general problem the Germans had the entire war, was that they had amazing technology and engineering far ahead of the time, but they were never able to really make enough of them. StG's, Vampyr night scopes, their tanks and aircraft, and I'm sure the Graf Zeppelin would have been an amazing ship if they actually finished it, haha.
To be honest, if you are going to be using making G43 out of springers, might be more accurate to make G41's, since they actually had that ability. G43's are more iconic and were issued out in greater qualities, but I think making springer G41's from springer M14's the way to go (and something I might look into doing myself....).
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 9, 2016 12:01:57 GMT -5
The location of the cocking bolt would make charging the gun quite easy without lifting your finger off the trigger or taking the muzzle off target by much. The reality is I have doubts I could engineer that effectively in a conversion from a springer M14 and the traditional M14 charging handle would blow the conversion. A from the ground up design by a major manufacturer like JG or CYMA seems quite doable.
Given the time and effort required to do these even decently well means a boneyard M14 AEG makes more sense. I just don't want to see too many semi autos for the German side. Given that my carbine springers will be my primary weapons at events for sometime to come so far that's not an issue.
Incidentally today is final sanding and paint day.
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Post by volkssturm on Mar 9, 2016 16:16:46 GMT -5
Well, you inspired me to resuscitate my G43 project. The base gun was (I'm not sure I should mention this) a 2d Bat BAR that wasn't getting any use. It was interesting removing all the dynaglass. That stuff is durable. I'd already decided to do the forestock in wood so I could thin it out towards the end of the barrel. I'm planning to try making the receiver out of PVC.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 9, 2016 20:33:49 GMT -5
Wow! There's a base M14 that has shown some versatility! Removing the Dyna glass must have been miserable! Using real wood for the forearm and handguard makes great sense. I knew going in that my lower stock forearm and handguard weren't quite long enough but it really didn't hit home until today when I essentially finished it. Eventually I will no doubt add just shy of two inches to the length.
I painted my receiver group, got my front site mounted and painted and stained my stock. It came out darker than I had planned but came out nice. Simulating the butt plate and finishing my front stock band is all that's left.
It is balanced very nicely and shoots great. Keep us posted on your progress and let me know if I can help in any way.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Mar 9, 2016 22:49:31 GMT -5
Wednesday's G4 progress from 2nd Bat:
Still few details to finish up (front stock band, sling, butt plate) but as promised my pseudo G43 is field able in less than a week. A few future enhancements would be to lengthen the stock about 1 1/2 inches but other than that it's as good as I could get it without breaking the bank. The lengthened magazine helped more than I expected it would. It shoots and feeds great and I have three done up 70 round mags for it so it will be absolutely skirmishworthy. No updates to the base M14 so typically 356 FPs with .20 gram. Tightbore is standard with the CYMA 032 so it shoots nice and straight. I left the selector switch which blends nicely in the scope mount hardware. 2nd Bat
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 10, 2016 17:08:52 GMT -5
Now after staring at it in the flesh along with more pictures of actual G43 S my stock and handguard needs to be at least two inches longer. Since I hadn't finished up the front stock band it's really not that tough of an alteration and in my opinion will make a huge difference visually. The Receiver group also needs a bit more precise shaping and sanding work and I need to source a slightly smaller bolt. None of this of course is immediately pressing but should have been caught earlier.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 15, 2016 0:51:57 GMT -5
So I added two inches to the lower stock and handguard. Detailed out the front stock band and butt plate and put more attention to the receiver group. Having done all that forced me to completely redo the cosmetics so I painted the metal bits and once dry started in once again on the stock and handguard. Current pictures of G43s show a range of stock finishes from blond to dark walnut. Most G43s were laminant so I wanted create that effect. In actual photograph after photograph all that I have seen show darker stock although with black and white photos it's sometimes hard to tell. The blonde stocks look pretty but just not military to me so I opted for a medium finish in sync with what most field weapons seemed to sport.
This finish still subtly shows the laminant grains by doing a series of layered oversprayed on what began as an over the top pattern. It is drying overnight. In the morning if the look is what I am hoping for I will apply a clear dull coat to both protect the finish and tone down the satin sheen. Once that's done I will remove the masking tape and if the weather is good get some pictures.
So many of these G43 projects seemed to dry up in their final phases and good bad and indifferent I promised myself I would see this to completion and share the final result warts and all.
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Post by ssgjoe on Mar 15, 2016 10:47:46 GMT -5
Hmm..very interesting. Looks like you were able to build it relatively quickly. Doesn't look too bad either.
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Post by volkssturm on Mar 15, 2016 11:52:36 GMT -5
How long did the stock end up?
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 15, 2016 18:54:08 GMT -5
From the somewhat thickened butt plate to the fabricated front stock band ended up as 34 1/2 inches.
The pictures posted thus far show the previous length before I added the additional length. Pictures of my final effort yet to come! I am very pleased with the thicker (in places) and lengthened stock. And the cosmetically modified magazines and tweaked mag well area. The receiver group is a bit bulbous and of course there was no way to position the barrel lower as on the real G43 so that is a compromise I accepted going in. The somewhat taller handguard helps with the illussion however. My Faux wood depicting a laminated stock ended up quite convincing even up close and I am happy with how that turned out.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Mar 15, 2016 21:15:35 GMT -5
Finished G43 Pics from 2nd Bat:
It took longer than I had anticipated (a three weekend project instead of a two weekend project) but my G43 is now finished to my satisfaction. There are of course unavoidable infidelities but with a total materials cost under $160.00 (including 3, 70 round modified magazines, I am happy with the outcome. The length is 43 inches which makes it comparable to an M1 Garand. I added two pounds worth of weights into the M14 base rifle so it is substantial feeling but nicely balanced. A small 9.6 volt battery fits snugly even with a leather sling added. The magazines were slightly lengthened (front to rear). They fit nicely in a pair of leather pouches I had on hand but too large for regular Mauser pouches. The two inches of additional stock length was worth the extra effort. It disassembles just like the base M14.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 16, 2016 0:08:27 GMT -5
Thanks Drac for posting these final finished shots. I spent the afternoon shooting it and knocked down lots of rubber army men with it! The modified magazines are a little tougher to pull out and replace than normal M14 mags which I'm going to try and get to the bottom of but other than that it works great. I'm going to try and track down or make an appropriate sling for it.
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Dracul
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Post by Dracul on Mar 16, 2016 6:54:18 GMT -5
If I had to guess, its because that you extended the mags cosmetically from the bottom. Doesn't look like that it allows the magazine to rock forward and out.
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Post by insterburger on Mar 16, 2016 7:09:36 GMT -5
2nd Bat, there IS a way to lower the barrel relative to the stock, as I am in the process of doing it. However, it's not going to be easy. The two stock pieces are at slightly divergent angles, so I will be modding the M14 section by adding/cutting away from the top to conform to the line on the k98 piece. This is going to be complicated and take some special techniques, but it should look good in the end. Your solution, however, is perfectly acceptable in my eyes and much easier to execute. But I guess I prefer a challenge!
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 16, 2016 10:22:27 GMT -5
I have nothing but admiration for those creative and determined enough to work around those challenges. My approach is always to minimize tweaks to feed systems, gearbox alignment and hop up. Every attempt by me to do so has resulted in either performance loss, reliability issues or durability problems. I decide going in whether the inherent limitations will be acceptable before taking on a project with the inevitable infidelities. The result have been some Godawful Frankenguns that even I couldn't tolerate and some pleasant surprises that came out in the flesh looking better than I feared. This project thankfully falls in the later category.
The bump I added to the magazines has a slight impact on ease of loading but doesn't account for the main snag which is a mystery thus far. I reduced the height of the M14 mag release which I do with my M1s and that slightly contributes to the awkwardness but still not the main issue. It's not horrible in any event and with 70 ready rounds not as critical as say a 15 round mag. I'll figure it out!
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 17, 2016 14:28:32 GMT -5
My research on the G43 turned up some interesting facts that actually tie in nicely to our Airsoft realities (at least mine,). The rifle itself was fairly rare with slightly more than a half million produced. That sounds like a lot but when you compare it to the 16 million plus Kar98s produced it kinda puts things into perspective. Spare magazines were also in short supply and while the intention was to issue eight 10 round box magazines with each rifle and two sets of double pouches per soldier most G43 riflemen got a pair of pouches and four magazines. (The pouches were in short supply as well). hence a typical Infantryman or Pioneer issued the weapon would be likely to have a dual G43 pouch on one side and the ubiquitous Mauser pouch set on the other. Each G43 pouch could hold two magazines while the Mauser pouches held 3, 5 round stripper clips. The G43 used the same ammo as the Kar98 and MG. In theory a German rifleman like most armies of the time was expected to carry about 100 rounds into the field. In reality most found ways to carry more than that. Imagine the impact on Airsoft battles if our players (other than MG gunners) were limited to say 300 Bbs?
I for one think this would add some realism to our events? The airsoft player carrying abag with 5000 Bbs and six 190 round high caps for their sub machine gun has always bugged the heck out of me.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 18, 2016 14:58:19 GMT -5
The magazine awkwardness was simply a matter of some mild sanding along the upper sidewalls in the magwell which had accumulated a tiny layer of resin paste. I also applied another coat of dull coat overspray to further reduce the sheen on the faux wood stock. I feel if I sanded down about a 1/4 to a 1/2 inch off the tip of the stock forearm and stock band I fabricated that too would enhance the G43 illusion but will most likely just do so on any subsequent G43 builds I might take on. I ordered a batch of six Mauser slings for the bolties and this rifle I customized this past few months. They should add a lot.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 21, 2016 20:29:46 GMT -5
Several inquiries as to whether or not I would consider building and selling these and the requests are of course very flattering but the time and effort required for the build couldn't support a reasonable selling price.
Molding the most time consuming aspects would be the only way to pull it off but the fear is I wouldn't recoup those costs (in time, materials and effort) before a major company like CYMA, GnG, AGM or ICS produced what would no doubt be a better G43 at half the cost!
Patience or Do It Yourself is my best advice. If I decide to make another (highly unlikely) I'll sell this one.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Aug 18, 2016 12:12:32 GMT -5
It appears now that one of our new members has tackled this project with the aid of a three D printer and will be offering either finished guns or a very complete DIY kit. An awesome new offering to our hobby and one that I will follow with great interest. Not sure what the cost of the kit is but hopefully less than the Shoot n Scoot project.
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Post by 2ndbat2 on Nov 13, 2022 0:07:39 GMT -5
Thanks to Hunter Cole and Steve Miner from this Forum I received a complete set of 3D printed parts that I could use to take on another G43 build. The parts are quite spectacular and include complete butt plate assemblies, magazine housing, front and rear sites, muzzle tip, 3 part upper handguard/heatshield, stock augmentation/reshape bits, receiver group components, upper stock band and a large number of precise bits and bobs that will provide excellent details.
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