Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Apr 7, 2016 22:25:14 GMT -5
Alright, so, I'm going to start off by saying that I really don't know much about Panzer troops. I know some were just tank and maybe vehicle operators, and some were mechanized and/or anti-tank/armor infantry.
Really the extent of my knowledge here.
As context. I found a seller on ebay, selling Panzer wraps for freaking insane prices. I won 4 of them, highest was $24 and lowest was $18. With shipping only spent a bit more than $100 for four Panzer wraps! Did not argue with the prices and hopped right on them. 2 of them are black wool with no large pocket; 1 is feldgrau wool with no large pocket; 1 is reed green HBT with a large pocket.
Can these be used, in a sensible way, for WWII airsoft? I know I would have to obtain/make the specific trousers, but anything else specifically I would need for them? For example, any special field gear, caps, etc etc? I'd think MP40s would be more common with vehicle crews.
Side note....if any of you guys here was the bidder that I beat in those auctions, I'm sorry, but kind of not really.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 7, 2016 23:32:12 GMT -5
The black tunics would be tank crew men while the grey would be assault gun crewmen (like Strumgschutz or Wespe type vehicles.) There were naturally many battles where crew men would survive a destroyed vehicle or frequently in the case of German vehicles be forced to abandon a disabled vehicle. In this case (at least for a while) they would find themselves fighting as Infantry. A Panzer wrap would not be an entirely unreasonable impression at all. weapons could be anything they might pickup but typically all they would probably leave the vehicle with would be a pistol. For abandoned vehicles MP40s and a couple MGs! Armored Infantry (Panzer Grenadiers) wore essentially standard Infantry uniforms but with Green instead of white piping.
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Apr 8, 2016 7:59:37 GMT -5
I don't think they are entirely impossible for the reasons 2nd Bat outlined above, but the use of Panzer uniforms in airsoft is certainly not something we should want to encourage, as this scenario would have occurred so infrequently as to be a major stretch. In the sampling of firsthand accounts I can remember from Panzer crews, they really didn't "tag along" with infantry once their vehicle was destroyed-- armor or assault guns were almost always deployed in concentrations (the foundation of the Blitzkrieg theory), and in the relatively rare circumstances where crews survived a vehicle getting knocked out, they would typically follow human nature and common sense and get picked up by their friends in the unit, hitching a ride with their comrades (or defending the other vehicles on foot) until they could get to the rear and be reassigned to another vehicle. Frankly, it was rare enough for crews to survive at all, and about the only circumstances where filling gaps in the German line with disenfranchised tank crews would be reasonably realistic would be a last-ditch, closing days of the war scenario where the German supply and personnel systems began to break down completely. At that point anyone with a beating heart would be pressed into the line, and tank crews whose vehicles were lost or permanently out of service would be at least credible as line infantry. The only way Panzer troops would fit in to an earlier scenario (say, D-Day) would be as an independent group trying to work their way from the front to a rear area, independent of the infantry who are fighting around them. Not much fun for the Panzer guys. I'd say you got a great score for the price, but these belong to the "really unlikely" category, and should go in the loaner gear bin. Like way at the bottom of it.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 8, 2016 12:01:09 GMT -5
There were so many occasions throughout the war when German forces were struggling to break out of encirclement and vehicles were, lost, ran out of fuel or broke down. It is true that armored troops would do what they could to stay with their comrades rather than integrate into Infantry units but given the hodgepodge desperation that these circumstances presented I can think of many scenarios where the presence of Panzer wraps would make great sense.
Most of our airsoft events, missions and battles are short term affairs depicting desperate situations. It doesn't take too much creativity to role these less traditional impressions into a mission brief. A group of German vehicles have been abandoned at x location (off the field). An Infantry unit has been tasked to escort the vehicle crews back to their vehicles and support and defend them as they effect repairs. The allied force is tasked with preventing their recovery. I can think of a half dozen explanations for the presence of pedestrian armored troops. The same could certainly be true of US tanker impressions. Sounds like a heck of a score Dracul.
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Apr 8, 2016 13:10:03 GMT -5
Hmmmmm. Good info.
These were intended for my loaner kits. They are all medium, so they were going to be reserved for guys who need smaller jackets/tunics. I didn't intend for them to be a full fighting force of any capacity, interfere with the standard WH soldaten kits I'm building, or encourage their use in the hobby.
With all this said, I'm still interested to know what they did wear. Because if I did have to kit someone out as a Panzer troop, I'd want them to look right. Did they wear helmets, special tank helmets, peaked or field cap? Low boots and Gamaschen okay? Should these guys get complete standard field gear set up (belt, suspenders, ammo pouches, breadbag, canteen). I know wearing field gear in vehicles, especially bread bag and canteen, would be a complete PITA. But did they at least stash a combat load out in the vehicles in case they needed to dismount? I know our modern vehicle crews keep rifles and other gear in whatever storage area the vehicle has in case they need to dismount. Only the officer/vehicle commander would get a side arm they would wear on their chest.
|
|
|
Post by volkssturm on Apr 8, 2016 13:48:47 GMT -5
From what I've read it wasn't "relatively rare" for armored vehicle crews to survive their vehicles being knocked out. I think it was one of Steven Zalonga's books that said in a survey at the end of the war that (for American vehicles at least) crew losses averaged out to 1 kia per vehicle lost. It kind of depended on how lucky the crew was. A catastrophic ammunition fire was the worst possibility, where the crew had only a couple seconds to get out. A shot that disabled the tank without starting a fire gave the entire crew a good chance to get away. I get the impression that modern tank warfare is much more deadly for crews.
As far as equipment, if the back story is that it's an AFV crew that had their vehicle shot up, then their personal equipment is going to be minimal, whatever they grabbed on the way out. They might also be armed with battlefield pick ups. And maybe one or two of them could have bloody bandages?
|
|
|
Post by aldrich on Apr 8, 2016 18:44:49 GMT -5
For the most part, AFV crewmen would not have continued fighting on as infantry when their vehicle was destroyed unless given no other option to get off the battlefield. In the only examples I have heard of, the troops were surrounded and were attempting a breakout. Perhaps in very late '45 you would see some in mixed units, but by and large they wouldn't be very fitting for most scenarios. On the other hand, grey panzer wraps were used quite extensively by the panzergrenadiers of the Panzer Lehr division in Normandy. Just swap the tunic for the wrap and the rest of the uniform is more or less the same as any other infantry division.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 9, 2016 1:20:53 GMT -5
Tankers wore black berets early in the war.
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Apr 9, 2016 11:14:51 GMT -5
Bottom line, I think it's not a terrible thing to have a few Panzer wraps in the bin if you got a good deal on them, but I don't think it makes sense to encourage their use or go out of the way to figure out ways to incorporate them. For the most part (at least in the NE) we are awash in quality loaner impressions, and we already tend to be hodge podge enough with our uniforms, with US forces usually a mix of airborne and line infantry, and Germans usually even more fragmented among Heer, SS, and FJ impressions. We should be trying to work toward greater homogeneity and uniformity (the whole idea of the word "uniform") and trying to make our events less and less of a WWII fashion parade incorporating oddball or atypical impressions... at least if we want to attract and retain people who are serious about this hobby more as an authentic combat simulation. With our wealth of loaner gear and sparse attendance, I long for the day when we would actually have to outfit people in these getups out of necessity.
To answer your later question, all you really should need in addition to the wraps is matching M43 caps, matching armored trousers, mid-height black lace-up boots, and minimal personal equipment/weapons-- a sidearm and a leather belt/holster, perhaps a (hopped down!) MP40 (most probably without spare mags... as if he' grabbing it and going). That would probably do.
|
|
|
Post by aldrich on Apr 9, 2016 13:15:55 GMT -5
The berets were very early, as in invasion of France early. They would not be good for any event with Americans in it. Though the do look pretty cool.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 9, 2016 14:44:19 GMT -5
A simple overseas cap would be the most appropriate as they easily accommodate head sets. The peaked wool field cap and even a regular (non camo covered) helmet would make sense. As mentioned by Volks Allied tanks and German tanks usually were knocked out with survivors. Soviet tanks sadly were the worst due to difficult operating hatches and very complicated ingress and egress.
The late war Sherman turret added a turret hatch for the loader and improved ammo storage to further improve survivability. Early in the war tank crews were extremely well trained so it was vital that they quickly be returned to duty with a vehicle. Later in the war (by July of 1944) untrained men were being grabbed to serve in tanks and in too many cases gained skills in combat. This was true for both the Allies and the Germans.
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Apr 9, 2016 21:59:08 GMT -5
I understand it was even worse for the Russians-- supposedly later in the war fresh recruits were asked if they had ever driven a car, and if the answer was "yes," congratulations, you're going straight to the front as a tank driver!
|
|
Dracul
Master sergeant
Posts: 1,341
|
Post by Dracul on Apr 10, 2016 20:30:39 GMT -5
Hey hey, I'm not trying to work Panzer troops into games, I've been just wondering about other uniform pieces and gear to make the impressions look right. Again, if I have to loan one out, I would want them to look as right as the rest of my loaner kits.
But yeah, thanks for the info!
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Apr 10, 2016 22:17:02 GMT -5
Drac, I'd LOVE for you to work Panzer troops into games-- by getting an old truck and turning it into a Sd. Kfz. 222 for them to man!
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 11, 2016 14:00:30 GMT -5
It has always been my fantasy to have 3/4 scale vehicles available to support WW2 airsoft events. I have had real armor at past events but the expense and hazards involved made it very impractical. Also full sized vehicles typically don't lend themselves to most fields and the limited range of airsoft guns makes their tactical effectiveness very minimal. To be viable and provide the full impact of armored assaults you need at least three armored vehicle (per side). Unless I win mega lotto I am afraid the dream will remain just a fantasy.
Vehicles definitely impacts turn out at events.
|
|
Jerry-ADK
Private 1st Class
Unteroffizier, Heeresgruppe Nord-Ost
Posts: 418
|
Post by Jerry-ADK on Apr 12, 2016 8:22:46 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by schmitz on Apr 13, 2016 4:20:00 GMT -5
We had a Panzer II and a BA-64 at one event last year.
too bad the panzer II's tread broke though.. turned into a Festung.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 13, 2016 10:30:17 GMT -5
That is frankly the ideal size for Armor in airsoft. Very very cool. Real armor even if fairly contemporary has extremely expensive operational costs. Fuel, operational maintenance, wear and tear, insurance and transporting it to and from events. It is very cool when it is present. What a photo op. The Wisconsin group has a fabulous replica SDZ half-track and a BA armored car along with other vintage vehicles which adds an additional element of excitement to their events.
|
|
|
Post by volkssturm on Apr 13, 2016 12:41:02 GMT -5
I bet you got some funny looks when you went into Pep Boys and asked if they had any track links for a PZKW II.
As 2d Bat said, that vehicle's a perfect size for airsoft. It's kind of amazing when you look at early war tanks and how small they were compared to what came very quickly after. It was only a couple years until the Tiger was fielded, which could probably have driven right over a Mk I or II like a speed bump.
|
|
|
Post by insterburger on Apr 14, 2016 8:37:25 GMT -5
Yup, Volks, nothing propels war technology forward like a war! Look at airplanes-- WWI started with freaking unarmed WING-WARPERS, and ended up with aircraft as viable-- and formidable-- fighting machines. Same thing with WWII... look at some of the fighters aloft in 1939 vs. the Me262, or what passed for a bomber at the beginning of the war against a B-29. It's really amazing how fast engineers can work with a fire under their collective arse.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 14, 2016 12:30:23 GMT -5
And pretty much unrestrained budgets! Necessity is truly the mother of invention and survival as a nation is pretty motivational. Along with machinery the advances in logistics and medicine during war time are extreme as well.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 14, 2016 12:33:20 GMT -5
Incidentally I didn't know that the Panzer Grenadiers (at least from Panzer Lehr Division) wore the wraps. What a cool picture. That is a look that would support the grey wraps nicely.
|
|
|
Post by ssgjoe on Apr 14, 2016 16:22:44 GMT -5
For headgear and field gear, give them helmets and a standard field gear set. Panzer crewmen were issued helmets and field gear the same as any other soldier. I remember reading in an interview about this one tanker who kept strapping his helmet to the tank hatch by the helmet strap and the strap kept breaking so he kept having to get it replaced. Eventually he got told by his CO that if he asked for another replacement he wouldn't get one
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 14, 2016 22:26:02 GMT -5
US crewmen hung tons of miscellaneous items on the outside of their tanks and halftracks while German tankers for the most part kept everything relatively neat and orderly. The few exceptions were pioneer and towing tools along with the occasional bucket and interestingly helmets!
Of course in the later stages of the war tons of foliage
|
|
|
Post by ssgjoe on Apr 15, 2016 9:31:00 GMT -5
The one tanker I mentioned in my comment was part of a Panzer Division. I cannot recall which one however
|
|
|
Post by luftwelle93 on Apr 15, 2016 13:05:14 GMT -5
Yup, Volks, nothing propels war technology forward like a war! Look at airplanes-- WWI started with freaking unarmed WING-WARPERS, and ended up with aircraft as viable-- and formidable-- fighting machines. Same thing with WWII... look at some of the fighters aloft in 1939 vs. the Me262, or what passed for a bomber at the beginning of the war against a B-29. It's really amazing how fast engineers can work with a fire under their collective arse. Love this post!Yes WWI aviation really made a huge contrast.Germans were even flying all-metal crafts such as the Junkers J.I ground-attackers and D.I fighters (lovely machines ) by 1918.As for Panzer ground troops I see no worry about them if kept as a small group of at least 1-7.I would love to see small scale replica of tanks or assault vehicles.There's one FT-17 3/4 scale made of what appears to be on a CAT chassis for paintball.I would love to see one done as a Stuart or a Hetzer.
|
|
2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
|
Post by 2nd Bat on Apr 15, 2016 15:08:08 GMT -5
Years ago my son and I made several 1/2 scale Panther tanks which we used in WW2 paintball games. They were a big hit but in hindsight the scale was off by too much. I think selecting smaller vehicles to begin with (stuart, 38t etc) and then not less than 3/4 scale would be the ideal.
Armor really adds a lot to the ambiance of an event. The excitement of both supporting armor and defending against their use is very intense.
|
|