The US Military Outgunned, outclassed?

[2nd Bat]

The Garand requires a certain level of familiarization and practice to get comfortable with where the carbines loading process and function is very intuitive even without practice. This no doubt contributed to its popularity as a capture weapon.

[norseman]

It would seem that the M14 combined the best of both of those WW2 platforms. It retained the energy of the Garand with a removable 20 round box magazine. No more Garand thumb!

If they had made a 16 inch barrel “Jungle Carbine” version in Nam? Would it have been canceled?

www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/152544/aa9620/springfield-m1a-socom-16-308-with-fde-composite-stock

[volkssturm]

A shortened M14, "Scout Rifle" style, would certainly have been more handy in the jungle, but you still have the problem of full auto firing. Shaving a little weight off it might have made it even more uncontrollable. I had an opportunity to fire the M14 on full auto from the hip back in ROTC, and I scared the &&&&& out of the five guys on the line to my right. My last shot landed at the right hand end of the berm. I weighed all of 125 lbs at the time, and that didn't help. 7.62 Nato has a lot of power. Putting it in an M14E2 stock might help. (I had one of those that I found at Property Disposal at Fort Richardson arou8nd 1973. Paid like $5 for it. Later gave it away to a guy in my National Guard unit who was a competition shooter. They're worth $$400-500 now. Ack!!!)

An M14 in 7mm-08 or .260 Rem (6.5mm) would be interesting. They produce less recoil. But then we're in the range of the .280 Enfield (7x43mm) the British wanted Nato to adopt and which the US opposed.

[stuka]

I am unsure if this link will work but if it does it should give a popup asking you to save/open the file via adobe, basically the US DoD compared the ar15 to the m14

cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/580860405430222848/582414113339211811/A_Comparison_of_AR-15_and_M-14_Rifles_Hitch_Report.pdf

[volkssturm]

So, it looks like there's some positive movement towards a new cartridge, rifle and squad automatic weapon.

www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27159/this-gun-paired-with-new-6-8mm-ammunition-could-be-the-armys-next-standard-issue-rifle

"Textron says it has delivered the first prototype of what could be the U.S. Army’s next standard-issue rifle, which will replace its M4 carbines, for testing. The company also says its design could be a springboard for more advanced small arms developments in the future."
"The Rhode-island headquartered defense contractor’s AAI Corporation subsidiary is the one in charge of the conglomerate’s submission for what Army refers formally as the Next Generation Squad Weapons program (NGSW). This effort includes plans for a new infantry rifle to take the place of the M4, or NGSW-R, and an automatic rifle replacement for the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), known as the NGSW-AR."
"AAI’s delivery, which Textron announced on Mar. 25, 2019, is a technology demonstrator, known as the NGSW-Technology, or NGSW-T. It is the first of five guns that it will eventually supply to the Army as part of this initial phase of the NGSW-R competition. The service's latest budget request for the 2020 Fiscal Year asks for more than $30 million to support the ongoing research and development."
"We don’t know exactly what AAI’s design looks like, but an official press release stated that it leverages nearly 15 years of the company’s work on advanced small arms using what is known as cased-telescoped (CT) ammunition. In a traditional small arms cartridge, the bullet itself sits in place at the top of a metallic case filled with gunpowder. CT ammunition nestles the bullet inside the case with the gunpowder, shortening its overall length, which in turn allows for the length of the overall weapon to be more compact. It also makes the rounds themselves more compact, reducing the physical space required to store it, in magazines or elsewhere, reducing the burdens on troops and logistical chains."

Of course, you have to consider that the Ordnance Department spent all of WWII trying to come up with an improved Browning M1919 and the best they could come up with was the 1919A6, even after they had examples of the MG42 to test. Glaciers move faster.

[norseman]

Jul 21, 2019 12:07:35 GMT -5 volkssturm said:

So, it looks like there's some positive movement towards a new cartridge, rifle and squad automatic weapon.

www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27159/this-gun-paired-with-new-6-8mm-ammunition-could-be-the-armys-next-standard-issue-rifle

"Textron says it has delivered the first prototype of what could be the U.S. Army’s next standard-issue rifle, which will replace its M4 carbines, for testing. The company also says its design could be a springboard for more advanced small arms developments in the future."
"The Rhode-island headquartered defense contractor’s AAI Corporation subsidiary is the one in charge of the conglomerate’s submission for what Army refers formally as the Next Generation Squad Weapons program (NGSW). This effort includes plans for a new infantry rifle to take the place of the M4, or NGSW-R, and an automatic rifle replacement for the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), known as the NGSW-AR."
"AAI’s delivery, which Textron announced on Mar. 25, 2019, is a technology demonstrator, known as the NGSW-Technology, or NGSW-T. It is the first of five guns that it will eventually supply to the Army as part of this initial phase of the NGSW-R competition. The service's latest budget request for the 2020 Fiscal Year asks for more than $30 million to support the ongoing research and development."
"We don’t know exactly what AAI’s design looks like, but an official press release stated that it leverages nearly 15 years of the company’s work on advanced small arms using what is known as cased-telescoped (CT) ammunition. In a traditional small arms cartridge, the bullet itself sits in place at the top of a metallic case filled with gunpowder. CT ammunition nestles the bullet inside the case with the gunpowder, shortening its overall length, which in turn allows for the length of the overall weapon to be more compact. It also makes the rounds themselves more compact, reducing the physical space required to store it, in magazines or elsewhere, reducing the burdens on troops and logistical chains."

Of course, you have to consider that the Ordnance Department spent all of WWII trying to come up with an improved Browning M1919 and the best they could come up with was the 1919A6, even after they had examples of the MG42 to test. Glaciers move faster.

It’s a pet peeve of mine.

I was on the fire dept for 20 years and rose to the rank of Captain, station hall commander and was also one of two training officers on a volunteer dept. 

The commissioners were all about buying new shiny fire trucks for the dept. But new bunkers? Heck no. We would hand recruits ancient stuff from the attic. There were even rain coats and rubber boots up there from the 60’s. We would strip old trucks for brass fittings and put them on brand new trucks. Embarrassing.

The message being sent through the ranks was that the top brass that controlled the budget didn’t give a hoot about the individual fire fighter.

While nice? Bright shiny fire trucks do not make entry into burning buildings. Men and women do. I’ve seen fires so hot that the visor was melted into the helmet. Your standing in a blast furnace with very little protection being expected to do a job.

You deserve the very best in personal protection and tools. And if the top brass disagrees? Then let them run into a burning building with 1960’s gear.

[volkssturm]

SIG-SAUER released pictures of their entries for the Next Generation Squad Weapon - Rifle and - Automatic Rifle (NGSW - R and NGSW - AR). Externally very similar to the AR. There are three companies in the competition at this point, with Textron and General Dynamics being the other two. One curious thing. It sounds like they're required to produce their own 6.8mm cartridge, but using a 6.8mm bullet designed by the Army.

www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/09/03/sig-sauer-ngsw-prototype/

www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/08/30/937270/

[volkssturm]

And here's a video about a 6.8mm composite polymer case round that might be the replacement forth e 5.56mm. The guy is saying it's been selected but I'll wait for a more official source. Still, interesting. He says it's 30% lighter (but doesn't say than what, while he's got both 5.56mm and 7.62 mm sitting there for comparison. It's interesting that physically the cartridge is about the size of a .30-06.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3D7o3OOkkw

[2nd Bat]

In watching the video I got the impression it's to be the new round for the squad automatic weapon (I'm assuming the replacement for the M249?). As for weight the example he used was 1000 rounds of 5.56 weighing 25 pounds vs this ammo at 30% less. The lethality in hitting power extends from 300 meters to 600 and that is significant in urban warfare (punching through walls) and long range engagements in the sandbox which happen often. His example is his own mock up so who knows how accurate it is. It looked bizarre to me. I suspect ultimately an OR or black polymer would be used. Interesting that they are bio degradable.

[volkssturm]

I think he said it's a 140 grain bullet at 3200 feet per second. That's somewhat better performance than the 7mm Mauser which gave the British fits in South Africa.