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Post by panzerfaust1993 on Nov 16, 2020 14:58:37 GMT -5
I’m truly curious as to why we can’t “get along” I’ve been in this niche of airsoft re-enactments for years now. I don’t understand why the “think” their better or what have you. If we could get them to play along we grow the hobby a lot. I know some of them come over and really enjoy what we do. I thought this would be an interesting discussion. One that I know close to nothing about. Do they think that we are children or something? I don’t know...
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Post by volkssturm on Nov 23, 2020 0:29:27 GMT -5
Can't say I've met very many reenactors. Some do seem to be maybe a little obsessive about historical accuracy, and that's sometimes a bit of a weak point with Airsoft.
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Post by SfcMigs on Nov 23, 2020 9:54:06 GMT -5
Brief history on this topic. If you look at the event I hosted, "Day of Days" AAR from June 2011 (https://ww2aa.proboards.com/thread/8678/day-days-2011-aar) I actually hired a German re-enactors unit to add ambience and historical accuracy to the event. It was a big success and everyone seem to enjoy what they brought to the table. But in addition to enhancing my event, my approach was two fold. I was also hoping to entice them (there were 10 soldiers and several citizens) to want to join us for future events as airsofters. I even raffled off a MP44 hoping one of them would win it.
Even though my event was a huge success and seems to be the standard bearer ever since, I did not accomplish what I had hoped regarding the blank fire community. Turned out none of them purchased raffle tickets and even though they all said they had a great time only two players attended future events.
Now that led us to an even darker path. The two players attended a couple of future events and we did incorporate them into the rules as a Hybrid type scenario. And this was my mistake. The problem with that is as airsofters, we weren't used to taking "imaginary" hits from blank guns and that seemed to frustrate them. On the flip side, THEY NEVER MISSED! Their range according to them was hundred yards (further than most of our guns) and they always hit their target. This caused confusion for game play and most became frustrated. I explained to them that we really wanted them to cross over to airsoft and not be blank fire players. Seemed to most of us that the cost was about 1/10th what they spent on blank fire, especially the cost of a gun and ammo. But they were stubborn on their preferences and wanted to continue on as blank fire players.
Then my event Hells Highway from Nov. 24, 2012 took place. Same scenario with the blank guys and this time frustration went to new heights. The inevitable happened, a fight broke out, Police were called and these two players single handedly killed airsoft for most of the players there that day. Even though I koshered everything with the Police and no arrests or charges were made, the damage was done. I was proactive in my response to the event, suspending some players for my next event and some for more. Safety and honest game play was my priority but it seemed the damage was done. A lot of key members never returned and have not heard from them since. Our future events struggled for years and still to this day we don't even come close to the attendance we used to have. We went from an average of 50 plus to usually under 25.
So why did I give you this history lesson? To just convey my experiences with the blank fire community and their resistance and somewhat arrogance towards our hobby. To each his own and I'm sure there are a lot out there who do both. But my opinion is they'd rather play dress up and camp than actually fight.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 23, 2020 22:58:17 GMT -5
Reenactors pretty much don't like anyone, least of all other reenactors. they tend to be petty, judgemental, self absorbed pricks but hey...aren't we all?
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 23, 2020 23:37:59 GMT -5
At the last 2 100 plus player events I participated in both had about 30% of the players who affiliated most readily with blankfire reenactors. In both events one WW2 and one Vietnam it was like pulling teeth to get the reenactors out of camp and on patrols or operations. Its just a different group of folks. We invited them on the condition that calling a hit from a blank fired was ENTIRELY a courtesy and suggested that most likely no one is going to die unless you absolutely have the drop on them and its up close. I also instructed the airsofters to honor incoming blank fire by taking cover and dispersing even if it was from far far away. We had no arguments or hat tempers. There were no complaints about authenticity standards and they liked the mission briefs and RTO/ map navigation elements and amount of pyro. We also had mail call, realistic encampments and chowlines so the immersion was as good or better than they were used to.
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Post by panzerfaust1993 on Nov 25, 2020 10:06:20 GMT -5
Play dress up and camp haha. It’s really a shame. Sfcmigs what a story I can’t say I’m surprised though. For me I do love being historically accurate but tactics and gameplay will ALWAYS be my top priority for fun. I just wish the blank fire community would join us but too eachs own like jd said. If you’re not Gona have fun or ruin it for everyone else what’s the point. As for games I know of a ton of guys up in Maine. I’ve been trying to get them to come down to CT to join us in some good old CQB well see though.. I just want our hobby to grow..
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 27, 2020 19:00:17 GMT -5
Another interesting observation was some reenactor groups were more active and less prone to "camp.posing" while others literally had no interest in tactics. For whatever reason the Germans and VC/NVA players tended to be more into gameplay than the US? The only complaining I heard from the reenactors was in my opinion justified as they engaged and approaching group of airsofters that were in the open and bunched up from about 150 yards away and they didn't even duck or spread out. It was annoying to me and I apologized and addressed the issue so it wouldn't happen again.
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Post by norseman on Dec 4, 2020 1:25:38 GMT -5
Well..... a long time ago PSAC held an event called Gallant Saber and as a old woods paintballer it was the most immersive thing I had ever done. They had a M2 Scout car there with a propane fired .50 cal. Did it add to the ambience? Yes! Yes it did! (Thanks John!)
I did some WW2 reenacting with the Spokane group. These guys were as hard core as any airsofter, they belly crawled through the grass and the mud and dug fox holes and cut wood for bunkers, etc. Blankfire was always confusing but they were reenacting WW2 battles so they already knew who was going to win. It really wasn’t about “hitting” anyone, or winning or losing. They were stitch Nazis, yes. But authenticity adds to the immersion. And they were willing to help new guys get up and rolling with spare gear.
But I was simply more interested in Nam stuff at the time. I had four children and couldn’t do both justice. And the Nam stuff was mainly entrenched in airsoft, not blankfire. (I.e. John’s Recondo school)
I think blank fire can be incorporated into airsoft if the expectation is that it’s ambience. Booms and bangs adds to immersion for sure. Just so long as the blank fire user understands that. Or better yet it’s only used by embedded cadre.
On another note I tried for sometime to get Cowboy Airsoft off the ground. And I fished for players in the SASS community. Those guys took a very dim view of airsoft because you NEVER point guns at people. I tried to point out airsoft is toy guns and PPE is worn to make it safe. They were having none of it except for a few people. They believed if you got used to shooting airsoft guns at people that would carry over to real firearms. So I gave up. And most airsofters were not interested in the old west. Tough sell. Most like shooting bags of bbs on full auto. Not reloading every six shots!
So we have done at my field a Star Wars event, a Jurassic park event, a Halloween Bigfoot Hunt, a Titanfall event and now planning a post apocalyptic event for next May. We have two fields that do modern Milsim and another that does dedicated WW2 events. So I’m trying to mix it up a bit.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 4, 2020 13:47:52 GMT -5
Norseman,
Good to see you are well and still at it. The notion about respect for weapons is angle I hadn't considered. Sounds credible...perhaps? The bottom line is they are parallel universes, similar but different. My interest in the tactical aspects along with the emmersion sees more potential in air soft but I also like the sound, flash and fury of blank fire. I wish someone would design audio augmentation and LED muzzle flash into air soft so we could bridge the gap somewhat.
Great to see you mixing things up.
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Post by norseman on Dec 4, 2020 15:47:01 GMT -5
Norseman, Good to see you are well and still at it. The notion about respect for weapons is angle I hadn't considered. Sounds credible...perhaps? The bottom line is they are parallel universes, similar but different. My interest in the tactical aspects along with the emmersion sees more potential in air soft but I also like the sound, flash and fury of blank fire. I wish someone would design audio augmentation and LED muzzle flash into air soft so we could bridge the gap somewhat. Great to see you mixing things up. Same here Bud! It’s been a crazy year. Concerning the SASS concerns? Maybe with some people? I’m an avid shooter and never mixed up the two. I don’t even like airsofters who muzzle sweep friendlies. Which is probably silly. So long as they have their PPE on. But many SASS think we are terrorists in training Or something. I even had one tell me he would beat me up if he encountered me with my airsoft gear and gun. I said well.... you would go to jail. Just like if you beat up a paintballer playing paintball. So long as no laws were being broken like trespassing. Very strong emotions there. Which is weird to me for a bunch of men and women that dress up like outlaws and have aliases like “Black Bart” and shoot human shaped steel targets. And I was one of them at one time! I just gave up. But it’s very fun and intimidating to strap on leather with airsoft six guns and meet in the street! You find yourself working on your draw a lot! Fun! I just bought a spitfire tracer off Amazon. They claim when used with a GBBR it will ignite the gas and give a flash. As well as act like a tracer unit and energize tracer bbs. I’m working on buying my first GBBR and trying it out. Companies also are working on a sound amplifier. One of them is called KY Tech industries. It attaches to the rifle and makes a bang through a speaker when you pull the trigger. You can also download sounds of different rifles or even Star Wars blaster sounds. It’s customizable.
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Post by norseman on Dec 4, 2020 19:29:30 GMT -5
A sound simulator. I think a guy could make his own. A small MP3 with build in speaker that could be trigger able by wiring it to the trigger switch youtu.be/oHr1AN0RKYY
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 4, 2020 20:34:14 GMT -5
That has so much potential. It would literally be a game changer.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 5, 2020 19:04:33 GMT -5
Wen I was a kid we had toy guns made I think by Hasbro that gave off a rifle sound and even periodically richchettes. The speakers were in the magazine of what I recall was about a 3/4 scale M14. In groups of kids they gave off an emmersive battleground ambiance. Flashlight batteries powered them. Obviously for our purposes something even louder would be required. Led mini lights could easily provide the muzzle flashes. The newer designed small traced units are actually quite adequate.
This needs to be a thing. I wish I were an electronics wizard.
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Post by norseman on Dec 5, 2020 20:31:41 GMT -5
Wen I was a kid we had toy guns made I think by Hasbro that gave off a rifle sound and even periodically richchettes. The speakers were in the magazine of what I recall was about a 3/4 scale M14. In groups of kids they gave off an emmersive battleground ambiance. Flashlight batteries powered them. Obviously for our purposes something even louder would be required. Led mini lights could easily provide the muzzle flashes. The newer designed small traced units are actually quite adequate. This needs to be a thing. I wish I were an electronics wizard. I found this. Partially premade. youtu.be/18myUR1pD2EIn theory a person could make a battery box that housed that speaker too. And then you could just wire it to the trigger switch.
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Post by norseman on Dec 5, 2020 20:51:29 GMT -5
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Post by norseman on Dec 5, 2020 20:56:39 GMT -5
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 7, 2020 22:36:44 GMT -5
Wade. It would be worth experimenting with. I guess assuming it creates a loud enough report I might try hooking it up initially to my crew served weapons like my MG 34s or my M1919. I see you can upload various MP3 sounds right onto the unit and there are actual tracks for virtually all of the assorted weapons of WW2
This could be very very cool. Imagine night battles with the enhanced sounds and tracers. The two together would add $100.00 per weapon but if it's loud enough (Say just shy of ear protection needed). It would be awesome.
I am going to hook it up to my M1917 first as its already set up with a tracer unit at the hop up and there is tons of room to mount the speaker. Tying the trigger right to the actual trigger would be easy enough. Short and long bursts would make sense.
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Post by norseman on Dec 8, 2020 16:59:41 GMT -5
I lost my quote. Options - you can order a trigger switch for MP3 player on website. If you don’t want to crack gearbox.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 8, 2020 17:14:05 GMT -5
I think you also noted that you could hook into a larger (or better ) speaker which could then be mounted in an ammo box for an MG or perhaps in the case of an M1 carbine a stock pouch etc? I have a bunch of hockey puck sized speakers made by JBL that are amazing but I wonder if this device would provide enough output? Only one way to find out I will order one and fiddle with it?
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Post by norseman on Dec 8, 2020 20:20:27 GMT -5
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 11, 2020 14:00:24 GMT -5
I too have ordered one of these scream boxes and am optimistic that something worthwhile could be put to good use. The goal is something shy of ear protection that will simply enhance the ambiance. Too loud and it would elevate potential law enforcement issues. Convincing full auto from far off can be problematic but convincing within 200 feet should work great. If our springers and AEGs sounded like gas guns or perhaps a little louder that would be fine. To be able to recognize Thompson reports vs MP40 so much the better.
Right now with air soft it sounds like distant woodpeckers. And axis and allied weapons sound exactly the same.
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Post by hardslack on Dec 13, 2020 21:50:06 GMT -5
Input for the topic and the tangent! I don't know any reenactors. But I suspect some of the friction may come down to natural rivalry/disdain stemming from being confronted with a clearly inferior hobby. certain personalities may subconsciously (or consciously) perceive airsoft as a challenge to reenactment. They may wonder why you waste your time with toy guns when they struggle to outfit even a rifle squad. Like how I am prejudice against paintballers (why would they spend the money on paint and markers that don't look like cool guns?). However, I would bet the bigger issue is airsoft's perception in general. My experience is that airsoft is perceived as immature/for kids. Several years back two coworkers and I would talk often about firearms. As gun guys I thought they might enjoy the airsoft experience of shooting at your friends. The response was a bit patronizing, kind of like your kid brother with his toy guns. Or if I told some deer hunters about a success in buck hunter 2020 for Xbox or something. I guess what is comes down to is just because someone likes one thing they may not like something that I view as very similar, and I'm of the opinion its not really worth it to fight about that. Its not realistic to have a kumbaya moment between everyone. You see these kinds of disagreements in the airsoft community as well. On the other hand, link, this group has had good growth the last few years for their cold war reenactment quality airsoft events. They even have a guy renting out full auto blank fire rifles. Cold war seems to be a niche within a niche, so maybe those participants are more accepting by nature. If you are familiar with Operation Eastwind, in their farewell advice (or something) they stressed that you run your game the way you want, and those that get it will come, and stay, and bring others, and don't worry about those who don't like it. Now the tangent Here ( LINK) is a homebrew laser tag markers with sound incorporated. May have some information/tech data that is helpful. For ww2 we don't have the convenient m203, but ya'll've already discussed that.
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Post by norseman on Dec 14, 2020 10:53:10 GMT -5
Airsoft IS reenacting in most places in the world.
Nice find on the laser build!
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Post by volkssturm on Dec 14, 2020 18:42:22 GMT -5
"Now the tangent" "Here (LINK) is a homebrew laser tag markers with sound incorporated. May have some information/tech data that is helpful. For ww2 we don't have the convenient m203, but ya'll've already discussed that."
Some years ago I stumbled on a UK laser tag site. I thought it had a lot of promise as an alternative to Airsoft, but it doesn't seem like very many other did. On the plus side, you wouldn't have the limitations of a pellet with a range of 130 feet or so, as well as the eye hazard of a projectile. You could have engagements at something closer to realistic distances. You could design weapons with sound and round counters. On the down side you need sensors which detract somewhat from appearance and building the necessary optics into the gun can be a problem. But I thought it was intriguing.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 14, 2020 22:45:56 GMT -5
When I was just leaving the Army in 1977 Laser technology was working its way down to the grunt level. In concept this was huge jump from simple blank fire. Initially the sensors were easily blocked and there weren't enough of them to replicate hits to body parts other than headshots. The lasers themselves were hurriedly mounted to weapons and not tied into the sights so aimed fire had little effect. Finally there was nothing to indicate that rounds were close so suppressive fire was not simulated. Most if not all of these shortfalls were addressed and the technology is actually very sound even in urban training settings. when rounds are close you get a disturbing screech. When struck you hear an alarm and your lazer shuts off. (No problem with people not calling their hits!) The Desert training center has really perfected the system, creating an extremely authentic combat simulation. The cost per participant with regard to technology an equipment however is prohibitive. My hope had always been that these limitation might be addressed and costs might come down. I definitely think looking into their muzzle flash and sound effects might be worthwhile.
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Post by volkssturm on Dec 15, 2020 13:57:04 GMT -5
My last active duty post was Fort Hunter-Liggett (then HL military Reservation, a sub post of Fort Ord) (Hunter-Liggett was a WWI US general). It was where Combat Developments Experimentation Command tested things. They were doing computer simulations on the TOW missile at the time (I had the vital job of counting rucks as they went out and came in and making sure the chow trucks got to where they were supposed to be). They were using laser designators on the tanks to see if the tanks could take out the helicopter before the missile took out the tank. The place was wired up so they knew where everything was, when they fired, they could calculate the flight of the missile. etc. They also did tactical experiments with laser designators on rifles. The "parapet foxhole" was one of them. I don't know whatever became of that in the long run. The idea was you built a two man fighting position with a berm in front of it and you fired at an angle to left and right instead of to the front. They built these positions and then had one team defend and another attack. The thinking was that the attackers would be at a disadvantage if they had to look for the defenders at an angle. Not sure whatever became of the idea. There was a general who was really pushing it. The technology was pretty primitive compared to what they can do now, but it was still impressive.
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Post by hardslack on Dec 15, 2020 20:53:41 GMT -5
Whoah! Super interesting! That foxhole sounds like 2batts preaching about defensive positions, and jives with current foxhole images in field manual's.
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Post by norseman on Dec 15, 2020 21:32:14 GMT -5
My first impression is that it’s loud enough for what we are doing. I simply touched the +/- to a 9 volt battery and then touched the green and yellow trigger wires together. The manual says if you run the volume too high the speaker won’t last as long. Not sure what the factory is set at. Super simple. I think this is a pretty easy answer to our problem.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Dec 16, 2020 1:53:40 GMT -5
I haven't received mine to hook up and try out. Did you get the initial size that you linked or the bigger mini bull horn style? I.m excited to see a video and frankly to create one.
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Post by norseman on Dec 17, 2020 3:46:45 GMT -5
I got the small one. My son grabbed it today. He can download YouTube videos and isolate sounds and make sound files out of them. My project is Sci fi. So I have selected the sound of a Titanfall 2 LSTAR. I will be running a tracer unit as well. I’m excited as well! youtu.be/3Uhr_ZMlaWg
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