gryphon
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Post by gryphon on Oct 25, 2007 13:05:11 GMT -5
The women in our Russian unit really want to form a sniper squad. They don't want to just look like snipers, they want a way to actually be able to make 100m+ shots. This pretty much rules out any airsoft weapon; so I was thinking, what if a good-quality laser pointer, appropriately mounted in the bore of a scoped rifle mockup, was used instead? The "sniper" would train the beam on their target's torso area until the glowing dot was noticed by the target or comrade, at which point the target would take the "hit." Headshots (especially face shots) would be forbidden to prevent accidental eye damage.
Has anyone tried this in a game setting? Is there a better system for simulating long-range rifle fire?
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YankeeDiv26
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on Oct 25, 2007 13:41:45 GMT -5
It sounds like a good idea in theory, but I doubt it would play out well. It seems to give the airsoft snipers an advangage because A. if the beam's constantly shooting, meaning the rof is infinite, very unrealistic in a bolt action situation. B. there really is no sound or giveaway if the laser is hidden in the barrel of the rifle, and C. I don't think the other players would notice.
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gryphon
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Post by gryphon on Oct 25, 2007 14:06:30 GMT -5
Well, here's the thing: Back in my paintball days, I noticed that the guys using lasersights were actually at a serious DISadvantage in scenario settings, because that red flash quickly gave away their positions. I loved seeing lasersights on my opponents' markers before a game, they told me what to watch for!
What this would mean for WW2AA snipers is this: the sniper would need to be extremely cautious with her laser to avoid giving away her position prematurely. Like a real sniper, she would need to pick her moment as well as her target, and wait until she was virtually certain that the red dot will be noticed immediately before she flashes it on someone. The ROF will be offset by the fact that the dot must be spotted before the hit is taken; the lack of noise will be offset by the fact that any quickwitted comrade of the target will immediately try to sight back along the beam to spot the sniper's position; and the overall effect will be much like the crack of a bolt-action sniper rifle - everyone will dive for cover and start watching for telltales while the target falls.
I think it has a good chance of working nicely, but I'm open to better ideas....
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KRaddatz
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Post by KRaddatz on Oct 25, 2007 14:06:32 GMT -5
time for a super spring
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sharpshooter
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Post by sharpshooter on Oct 25, 2007 14:54:19 GMT -5
Hmmmmmmm....
It all sounds like it might work, but it really needs to be tested. And lasers lose their potency after a large distance. I just dont think it would be as much fun for the sniper anyway.
"time for a super spring"
Indeed it is.
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gryphon
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Post by gryphon on Oct 25, 2007 15:23:48 GMT -5
I don't think that a spherical projectile weighing only .2 to .3 gram can be made to do what we need here. The problem's not a lack of a way to push the bb hard enough, it has to do with what happens when you try to put that much kinetic energy into such a light little ball - airsoft bbs lack both the mass and the shape to want to fly in a straight line for long distances. A super springer would require a super projectile, and there, dear comrades, is the rub. Start with a nice, streamlined shape: make it small and speedy so it will carry, and you're in skin-piercing range pretty quick (think .117 cal. air rifle;) make it heavy and slow so it will carry, and you're walloping the heck outta folks (think riot control rounds.) If you jack up the kinetic energy in the projectile to make it carry further, that energy MUST dissipate somewhere when that projectile encounters resistance. There is a limit to how much force per square millimeter you can safely whack another person with and still have two people laughing afterwards. I don't know a way around this limit, except by abandoning the idea of a projectile altogether for long-range weaponry.
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Post by Jager.Drü on Oct 25, 2007 16:25:24 GMT -5
I just don't think it would work. I think the player would have a hard time seeing the laser "hit" them. If not enough people see the "hit" I think it would turn into he said she said on who hit who.
I know in airsoft I wouldn't like taking a hit, when I didn't really get hit. it would be like using a blank firing rifle in a airsoft game IMO.
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gryphon
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Post by gryphon on Oct 25, 2007 16:58:25 GMT -5
Another option is the "walkie-talkie sniper." This I have used, and it works, but it requires refs. Each player draws a playing card from a deck at the respawn point and puts it face-out in their helmet band just before the game begins. Each squad is accompanied by a ref with a walkie-talkie. Each sniper is equipped with a blank-firing scoped rifle and a walkie-talkie.
To hit an opponent, the sniper must be able to identify the playing card in the target's helmet band using his/her scope. The sniper squeezes off a blank and radios the refs, saying something like, "German two of diamonds, Hit!" The appropriate ref then announces the hit to his squad. German two of diamonds takes his hit, then draws a fresh card when he respawns.
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Post by Jager.Drü on Oct 25, 2007 17:06:31 GMT -5
That I could see working. BUT what about people who don't want a white card on their helmet? I'd rather not and I have no way of putting one on, with my current helmet set up. A sniper system seems to be hard to set up and get everyone ok with it.
I could see a sniper set up with a 8mm bolt gun, It would have to be custom. But thats the way I see an actual sniper being used in an airsoft game. Everything is scaled down for airsoft. Because really someone with a MG could find and kill the sniper in real life, but in airsoft and the systems you are thinking of. The enemy has no way of attacking the sniper at the same ranges. Which in reality they could.
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gryphon
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Post by gryphon on Oct 25, 2007 17:55:49 GMT -5
Print the numbers "01" to "52" on grey cardstock, and give the MG crew a pair of binoculars and a walkie-talkie for use against snipers. What matters is not some much the system, as the players' willingness to cooperate with it.
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Post by Jager.Drü on Oct 25, 2007 18:13:37 GMT -5
This is true, but everyone needs to like the system to use it. I don't see people wanting to wear stuff on their helmets that don't help them. Its just one of the things with airsoft. We can't really do, snipers, arty, airstrikes... Airsoft is all about squad on squad action.
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KRaddatz
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Post by KRaddatz on Oct 25, 2007 18:48:24 GMT -5
i think just give them good bolts and have em sneak into range, using their sniper skills to get into kill range. instead of being out of any possible range to attack back and have them sit there pointing a laser at you.
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Post by neoptolemus on Oct 25, 2007 20:45:05 GMT -5
These suggestions are unhelpful and largely ignore the originally posters concerns.
The laser system sounds very interesting as does the radio tag system. The former actually seems more feasible and will reduce the drain on staff; the key would be using it in a context where all the players are mature enough to except non physical kills.
Perhaps next time you host a game you could try implementing it!
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Post by Jager.Drü on Oct 25, 2007 20:57:12 GMT -5
How was it unhelpful?
I was just posting concerns that I think the main body of players would have. I wouldn't want to wear a card on my helmet or have a "sniper" just shine a laser on me. Try the systems and see what people gage it at. Personally, I wouldn't like it.
It gives the targets no time to react to the sniper and no way of hitting the sniper. So the sniper would be a untouchable super weapon.
Its not Call of Duty.
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Nimlas
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Post by Nimlas on Oct 25, 2007 21:04:18 GMT -5
I agree with Dru for the most part. I would not/do not want to wear a card on my helmet, and I think most people will not either. I think in a way it would ruin part of the realism, wearing around cards and refs telling you that you're dead. I too think sniping just isn't feasible in airsoft, a point which 2ndBatt has stressed since way back.
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Post by binarypunisher on Oct 25, 2007 21:05:59 GMT -5
Yeah, Id rather have someone with Flaggrantly Wrong facial hair than a playing card stuck to their helmet.
This aint Vietnam!
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Oct 25, 2007 21:18:05 GMT -5
I know that what i'm about to say has no relation to airsoft at all, so here it goes, back in Argentina in the Army we used to train as snipers using the spotter and a radio to call in the hits to the squad we were attacking, here's how it worked , your spoter would pick a target for you , he would say: " machinegunner , second from left 300 meters , ready?" then you'll answer back :" machinegunner , second from left 300 meters , ready , on target , clear to fire" , so your spotter would count " 3,2,1 , fire fire fire" you would take the shot , and as you are opening fire on the target , the spotter is allready radioing the kill to the "enemy" squad , the target would take the shot , the medic would come up check him and confirm the kill , at the same time the squad has gone to ground and is starting to look for the sniper. This system worked great up until we started to use wax bullets and then it became a little more real. I think the helmet cards really aren't needed if the sniper can give a good description of his target before he shoots.
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Ersatzjack
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Post by Ersatzjack on Oct 25, 2007 21:23:08 GMT -5
Well, I have pretty much played bolt action rifleman in all my skirmishes. In Neillsville I took out the Soviet Machinegun team with a headshot to the helmet (all I could see) and had a helmet shot in NY too. (That was actually optional, the helmet, face and upper chest were in the scope and I thought the helmet would be best. Trouble was the target heard the helmet noise but wasn't sure what happened and so I had to put the second shot in his sternum. That got his attention. Not bragging here (well maybe a little) but saying this. That with a 400+ FPS rifle that shoots straight and a defensive mindset, good camo, good stealth tactics and patience anyone can best an AEG in the game with a rifle. The problem as I see it with long range systems is what happens when the laser equipped snipers are moving and us short ranged airsofters see them and want to drop them but have no hope at range of shooting them. With such an advantage and no fear of retaliation, I think the rules would just cause needless argument and make attacking even harder than it already is. Let's do what we can to keep this from becoming too WWI like and favor any tactics that help the offense. Making uber-sniper rules doesn't. Sorry I have to go against you on this Gryphon but I like everything else you've done. You are super-duper in your other endeavors. ;D
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gryphon
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Post by gryphon on Oct 25, 2007 22:07:15 GMT -5
No worries, guys, I was just floating the idea for feedback, pushing the envelope to find the edges. 'Jack, at our last skirmish your K98 conversions had easily twice the reach of my $20 M38 and the AGM MP40s, so that's likely to be the easy answer right there. I'll probably just make gas bolters for the girls - I'm certain they'd have trouble cocking one of your springers all day.
Back when we was poor backwoods hick kids running around in da woods, we played entire games with nothing but the old man's binocs and walkie-talkies, kinda like the Argentine training described above. No cards, we just called each other out. It was a blast, 'til the old man noticed his stuff was missing....
I still think that lasers might have a place in WW2 milsim. Years ago, we used an outdoor lasertag system for long-range anti-tank artillery at a scenario game at Paintball Sam's in Racine, WI. Lasertag and paintball didn't mix so well, the sensors got all gummed up, but I've ruminated on tank-vs-tank outdoor lasertag (200-300 yd range) with airsoft infantry ever since. It would be easy to rig a tank's hit sensors to trigger pyro charges or playback loops of explosions.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 25, 2007 22:26:27 GMT -5
The Army tried for some time a system called SCOPES which undoubtedly was a acronym for something. Every soldier had a 3 power scope on their rifle and everyone wore a Mitchell paterned helmet cover with a subdued green circle with a random number on it in black. At range without aiming with your scope you typicallyt couldn't read the number. (There were bibs as well but these were seldom worn) The idea was as desicribed with the firer calling out the numbers of target opponents and these people sometimes with the help of a judge would call themselves out. It was great theory and a lot of money was spent on it and a lot of mitchell pattern camo helmet covers ruined but it reallt really didn't work on any level. Better then just shooting blanks I suppose but not much.
What we used to call another idea for tactical masturbation. The added 30 to 40 feet afforded a decent sniper rifle dopesn't sound significant but in airsoft it actually plays bigger then it is. I agree with Ersatz that with careful positioning and sound tactics having a few riflemen with higher power bolt action rifles shooting heavier Bbs at a higher velocity is sound. I don't call them snipers because the range is rediculously brief and the accuracy just isn't there but they do serve as marksman with a destinct advanatage while still having significant disadvantages. Player do need to learn to respond to a single light hit and learn to recognize the difference in sound and feel from a twig or rain drop and the marksmen have to likewise learn the trajectory characteristics of BBs which drop like a stone once the inertia is lost and often appear to be a hit when in fact they aren't.
There are people who play army with laser guns and body sensors not unlike current army training but with far less powerful lasers. It is expensive and rather hokey from what I could ascertain. (Laser tag on a grand scale.)
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Post by Jager.Drü on Oct 25, 2007 22:44:56 GMT -5
I can see laser being used on anti-tank weapons and bunkers. Somewhere where one can rig a sensor for the laser. Thus like you said setting off pryo or whatnot.
So tanks and bunkers with sensors and anti-tank wepons with lasers. I would like the anti-tank weapons have some sort of blast or kick or somthing so people know it went off.
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gryphon
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Post by gryphon on Oct 25, 2007 22:46:09 GMT -5
Yeah, I tried to work with Steradian in Indiana to develop a decent outdoor lasertag system, but it just didn't fly. Hokey is the right word, great range but that's it, they felt like toys with no decent sensory feedback. Still think a good armor system could be cobbled up from their base equipment, but it would be pricey.
40 extra feet in airsoft is huge, I'll get busy on the gassers once the other projects are done.
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Oct 25, 2007 22:47:06 GMT -5
This are the helmet covers you are talking about 2nd Bat?
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gryphon
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Post by gryphon on Oct 26, 2007 8:28:10 GMT -5
I have to say, the depth of knowledge on this forum is amazing. I'd never even heard of SCOPES, and next thing you know, you guys are not only describing it, but posting equipment pics!
Yeah, Dru, that's exactly what I had in mind - the sensors would be wired as triggers to some sort of pyro display, or LOUD electronic "explosion," or siren/flasher combo. Effective range would be a solid 200-300 yds line-of-sight, but EACH individual sensor rig would probably run a good $2K - a guy could build 100 12g Nerf rocket Panzerfausts and bazookas for the cost of one sensor rig, and probably have a lot more fun at the average skirmish.
Still, I have this dream of 25 or 30 tanks to a side, in rolling pasture land somewhere, rigged with lasertag/pyro arrays. Large-scale remote-control tankbuster "SPAD" planes built of foam, PVC and coroplast, each mounting one of the small short-range lasertag emitters, divebombing the tanks. All these duking it out over the heads of a couple hundred airsoft troops with mortars and howitzers in the rear. Pricey with a capital $$$, a nightmare to organize, safety and logistics problems by the crate, no insurer would touch it. Probably best left as a dream....
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 26, 2007 12:49:47 GMT -5
I think we've all had similar dreams!!!! Yikes Adler you even produced a picture of the Helmet cocer to illustrate my post. You're amazing. Incidently that's obviously a Marine Copr helmet and I didn't realize they did SCOPES training. The scopes were surplus WW2 weaver scopes and I sure wish I had grabbed some of them!!!!
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Dec 6, 2007 9:23:54 GMT -5
Got another SCOPES helmet cover, i just need to get another period helmet for it.
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Post by Obergefreiter Raimund on Feb 13, 2008 9:24:42 GMT -5
Not to get off topic… but we have found a way of making artillery feasible for Airsoft using the air cannon systems and water balloon sabots. True, one might get a little wet, but who here hasn’t played in the rain or in the snow having gotten a little wet? To note- personally, in the last two NY WW2 games, I’ve been eliminated by mortar/artillery fire. Also, I’ve had the pleasure of taking out the mortars/artillery; which is quite rewarding when you’ve been eliminated by artillery shelling more than bb fire.
Anyway, to get back on topic… I do not foresee sniping at long ranges as feasible. I agree with everyone else who suggested that snipers use their skill to get within range to take their shots. And I, being one who uses a Tanaka K-98 can say with confidence that it is possible and rewarding! Much more so than being at a supper safe distance.
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Lev
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Post by Lev on Feb 14, 2008 13:13:31 GMT -5
I'm afraid I have to agree with the nay-sayers on this idea, comrade Gryphon. You can't ask everybody to put an anachronistic card on their helmet to facilitate a new way of sniping, and I like the fact that most ww2 games don't have or need refs. Just my two cents.
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gryphon
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Post by gryphon on Feb 14, 2008 14:36:58 GMT -5
Yeah, I've ditched the idea. Our skirmishes are proving that 400-500 fps springers in capable hands are up to the job.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Feb 14, 2008 16:11:04 GMT -5
At 400 to 500 they are just differentiated enough to provide a tiny edge that if exploited works well. The key of course in the long run will be to limit ammo and predominently semi auto fire for most riflemen so the bolt action folks will be able to "stay in the game" and eventually set up the sub machine guns so they are kept at stock FPS and maybe even restricted from using hop up. In that way limitations and trade off pluses and minuses fall somewhat in line with reality (at a reduced but equalized scale of course)
The day is coming!
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