click
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Post by click on Jan 16, 2007 16:40:38 GMT -5
I strongly suggest this book. It is about the Warsaw Uprising in 1944. I think it is kind of interesting how the auther talkes about the betrayal of Poland by the Allies.
Here is something to think about: Umm....remind me why this war started. Oh yeah, Stalin and Hitler invaded Poland.....so.... why wasn't war declared on Russia as well? Good question. Answers anyone?
Click
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Post by neoptolemus on Jan 16, 2007 19:35:16 GMT -5
1) This book is faaaaaaaaaaaaar too long. I didn't even bother finishing it because the author has a horrid style and insists on using nicknames to reference fighters in the Home Guard; this is problematic because I believe he uses the same nickname to reference multiple people. Also, I don't think France would declare war on Russia since they were always good allies (disregarding Napoleon and the revolution...). What's more, after the partition of Poland, Russia had an illegitimate but legal sounding claim to parts of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, so their annexation in '39 could have been seen as having historical pretext. But I think the most important factor was that the Nazi-Soviet partition of Poland was part of a secret agreement that the allies were unaware of until later on. They may have also realized Stalin wanted a buffer in between himself and Germany and so have found logical reasoning in his decision. Mind you, my answer was mostly speculation, but I think it has a few valid points.
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click
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Company G, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division
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Post by click on Jan 17, 2007 13:02:59 GMT -5
I dissagree on your opinion of why the Allies did not declare war on Russia, and here is why:
This book is faaaaaaaaaaaaar too long. I didn't even bother finishing it because the author has a horrid style and insists on using nicknames to reference fighters in the Home Guard this is problematic because I believe he uses the same nickname to reference multiple people.
First off it is the Home ARMY. Mabye you should read it again before you totaly burn the guy who wrote it.
Also, I don't think France would declare war on Russia since they were always good allies (disregarding Napoleon and the revolution...).
They had only been allies only after the defeat after Napoleon and not before.
What's more, after the partition of Poland,
Which was illegal, by the way.
Russia had an illegitimate but legal sounding claim to parts of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, so their annexation in '39 could have been seen as having historical pretext. But I think the most important factor was that the Nazi-Soviet partition of Poland was part of a secret agreement that the allies were unaware of until later on. They may have also realized Stalin wanted a buffer in between himself and Germany and so have found logical reasoning in his decision.
Wrong. Poland, England and France had an alliance and normaly people don't let other countries overrun their allies on the grounds that the invader needed a buffer.
Mind you, my answer was mostly speculation, but I think it has a few valid points.
Sorry if this may insult you and i don't mean too but i think it is worth pointing out the falts in these theories that not only you, but many people have.
Click
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Post by neoptolemus on Jan 17, 2007 19:59:46 GMT -5
1st) Home Army, Home Guard what's the difference? My apologies in terms of the technicalities, but I was writing this relatively late and it was rather impromptu. Also, I read the book a while ago and didn't bother consulting it before posting. By making an ad hominem fallacy, your whole argument is in my opinion flawed, but I will continue for the sake of creating some sort of dialogue.
2nd) Before the war Catherine the Great and Russia's other enlightened despots respected Louis XIV as a ruler and even tried to copy his policies. Look at what Peter the Great did with the Orthodox Church and the presence of Diderot in Catherine's court! What's more French became the language of the Russian court of for the elite. All these points suggest that their relationship was a positive one pre-Napoleon.
3rd) Who cares if the partition was illegal? The commonwealth was dying and so the Russians and Prussians moved in and took territory which was considered by everyone else as afterwards belonging to them; this point is still valid despite it's legality as considered by the Polish.
4th) What great friends the Polish had in the English and French! The English did nothing to save Poland and only used their relationship with the pre-war government as a tool to fight the communists. And the French only saw the plight of the Polish as an opportunity to invade Germany, something which they were all too eager to do.
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click
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Company G, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division
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Post by click on Jan 18, 2007 16:49:26 GMT -5
Here is ananswer to your statements
1) What I was trying to point out was the fact that you got the name wrong on the main subject matter of the book and so mabye you should read it again so things become more clear to you.
2) The communists sometimes had hints of capitalistic economic polocies for short periods of time so that they could bring it up to speed with the economy of the US during th Cold War. This doesn't mean that there was a positive relationship between the two. That is not to say that you are wrong just trying to look at it from a diferent perspective.
3) Well, I care that the partition was illegal becuse YOU said it was legal.
4) Well seeing as how you have no sorces to back up your theory I dont agree with it in the least. By the way, if the French were all to eager to invade Germany then why didnt they when Germany reoccupied a demiliterized zone between their borders?
To the Mods: If you feel this arguement is getting to hot don't hesitate to intervine/lock it. I don't wan't to be labeled as an argument starter.
Respectfully, Click
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2007 21:40:26 GMT -5
sounds like an intresting read! ill have to check it out, i love learning about different topics! good find click!
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Post by polak on Aug 24, 2007 19:25:08 GMT -5
I mentioned it a year ago, and it's a fine book. It shows just how ignorant we were, and how far we were willing to go to keep a Communist ally. Read this, and you'll know how and why I consider the USSR as much an enemy as the Jerries.
Neoptolemus, almost every point you try to make is addled. If the Commonwealth was dying, why would it have taken three empires to tackle them? Also, the French had no plans to invade the Germans, and before you try to bash the English and French, who welcomed the Polish to fight alongside them, the Russians hardly kept to their words.
And the reason for keeping names obfuscated was to keep them from being identified and possibly shot. There's a bright idea, yeah? The book's not arduous. You're just not willing to soak up the information. I had two relatives who fought in the Uprising, and I'll be damned if you try to invalidate or foul up anything in that book. Davies is probably the most reliable authority on Poland in the western world.
Oh, and sorry for the Necropost.
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Post by deuce on Aug 25, 2007 15:15:55 GMT -5
I just bought the book the other after looking for it for almost a year. I've read the foreward and am just getting into the first chapter. I am so excited to read this book. Also Polak that is so cool that is really cool that you had relatives who are Uprising vets, are they still alive? I bet they have some amazing stories. Have you ever considered doing an AK impression? If you live in the northeast maybe we could get together and start an Armia Krajowa group.
Andrew
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Post by polak on Aug 25, 2007 16:48:36 GMT -5
armiam.com This site sells Polish and German gear, used during the Defense War and could be used later for a ZSZ/ZBO/AK impression. Well, one is. I never got the opportunity to meet him, but from what my grandfather tells me, his stories really opened your eyes to the horror of what went on. I have made an AK impression, which is not too difficult. Really, you just need to be willing to buy some German gear and modify it with the red 'n white. Mostly, however, I enjoyed being a partisan. Unfortunately, I live on the west coast, but I would be willing to take a trip east once I get all of my stuff together. Heh, looks like we've got a little Warsaw on WW2AA.
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Post by deuce on Aug 25, 2007 17:31:03 GMT -5
Do you have any pics of your AK impression? If you could pm them to me that would be greatly appreciated. It would be great if we could get a WW2AA Armia Krajowa group, and start doing eastern Front events.
Andrew
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Post by polak on Aug 25, 2007 19:50:02 GMT -5
Well, the AK operated on western and eastern portions of Poland. It was actually more prominent and useful than Tito's Partisans, however recieve very little credit. Anywho, I've got no pictures...yet.
But it's pretty simple. If you need any more info, PM me.
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Post by deuce on Aug 25, 2007 21:18:54 GMT -5
Ive got a pretty good idea of what to do for my impression. Have you ever been to this website: www.warsawuprising.comAndrew
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Post by polak on Aug 26, 2007 14:02:27 GMT -5
Mhm. It's great.
Of course, nobody cares about the truth. The allies basically used these people, and Roosevelt effectively let the Iron Curtain fall. Could've been stopped.
Anywho, yeah. I thought about making a Blyskawica mod for a gun, but it'd be a bit of an undertaking.
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