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Post by p51 on Oct 19, 2007 22:42:36 GMT -5
The simple reality of airsoft guns is that you can't simply aim and pull the trigger like you can on a real weapon, due to breezes and distances seriously affecting the flight of the BB, even at close ranges. With a real rifle, one shot is all you'd need, but in airsoft, you'd need to squeeze off a few rounds to "walk" them into the target, especially when that target is moving, much like you'd shoot a real MG at an airplane flying over. So in that regard, yeah, it's not accurate to shoot with high-caps, but if you're actually trying to hit someone, you'd never be able to maintain fire discipline with an airsoft gun like you would with a real rifle or SMG.
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Post by Jager.Drü on Oct 19, 2007 23:54:49 GMT -5
I can hit people without highcaps, sure it takes a burst to hit someone, espesially with the MP40. Thats why double the RS mag capticty is fine.
I guess I don't understand, you can't reload/change mags. But you can wind a highcap?
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 20, 2007 0:44:10 GMT -5
P-51 NEVER is a pretty absolute statement. At the typical ranges of an airsoft battle the accuracy and ability to hit what you're aiming at (anything bigger then a pie plate) isn't seriously degraded with an airsoft gun. The effect of foliage and obstructions is significantly impaired but accuracy isn't . Other then in really severe wind, show me a guy who can't hit a half man sized target inside 120 Feet with an airsoft weapon and I'll show you a guy who would have been even more likely to miss with a real weapon. The fact is with airsoft rounds in white you can see your rounds flight for goodness sake! I'll stick by my statement that 2 to one rounds are plenty and three to one ammo per magazine is more then enough. Hi caps pretty much ruin airsoft as a mil sim experience in my book.
If a airsofter feels like he needs more then a six round burst to engage targets he needs to go back to the target range and learn how to aim. You'd be amazed how many airsofters have no clue how to aim and fire a weapon. P-51 certainly doesn't fall in this category but perhaps doesn't have enough time with an airsoft weapon playing in a game with mag restrictions. That's the only explanation I can come up with as I read your post?
Perhaps you're enagaging targets beyond the reasonable inertia limits of the guns and don't realize it? That's very common with airsofters as well.
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Post by Jager.Drü on Oct 20, 2007 0:45:59 GMT -5
Here Here John.
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Post by ukkolzi on Oct 20, 2007 6:12:38 GMT -5
Leave the big mag capacity to MGs. It's so much more fun, we've tried. In one WW2 game I had the honour of using Valtteri's MG42. The Amis were about to attack a small village which we, the Germans, had to defend. Me and my assistant gunner went up to the town hall's "clocktower". From there, we had a great field of fire to almost every direction. Even with a meager 200bb capacity, the MG proved it's worth as a support weapon - the Amis couldn't get close enough to do any serious damage. My assistant gunner would point me the targets and I would squeeze the trigger. I felt almost sorry for the Amis who desperately tried to crawl to cover under our fire. ;D We had to reload often, but it didn't slow the action down too much. All was well, SMG gunners positioned in the village provided the close support and riflemen tried to pick off targets from longer range. Then our MG jammed, a BB was stuck in the feeding system. The enemy probably realized that the MG was out of action and they started to close in dangerously fast. When we eventually got it fixed up and firing again, I got one in the head. My asst. gunner took the MG and continued firing. The enemy was now very close, and tried to throw grenades at us. Almost immediately the battery died and someone shot the asst. gunner mercilessly. The village was overrun. Well, I guess we had it coming. The point? If there would have been normal guns with hi-caps, the MG would have been completely useless, while someone with a Thompson and a 400bb mag would have pinned us down from a ridiculous distance without worrying that he might run out of ammo. If 1/3 of the men carries a S MG, there's no point in a proper MG, which should heavy and unwieldy but when positioned right, could effectively halt the enemy advande and/or force them to take cover and scream for mommy. I don't even want to start about the poor riflemen when going against hi-caps.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 20, 2007 17:19:52 GMT -5
Thanks for the support Ukkolzi. So your group limits even the MG to a 200 round mag that has to be refilled each time? Wow that is very impressive realism obviously simulating barrel cool down or a new belt of ammo. Very interesting. Great anecdote about playing an airsoft event realistically. Great to hear others share the concept and employ it to great effect.
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Post by ukkolzi on Oct 20, 2007 18:17:07 GMT -5
Well, the gun was capable of holding only about 200 bb's in the tiny magazine. Now we have a ~1200bb drum magazine. But for a support weapon it's reasonable enough. Of course it doesn't have to be loaded full if the game/situation demands it. This reminds me, we have had a few games where it's possible to carry extra ammo for MGs in metal ammunition containers or ammo belts. The catch is: the boxes must weigh about 5-6kg to simulate the weight of real ammo. The ammo ratio is usually about 1:10 in these cases, so if you have a 100 rnd ammo belt, it's worth 1000 BBs. For an ammo box, some 2000 BBs. This kind of arrangement adds the role of, you guessed it, assistant gunner (or two).
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Oct 22, 2007 11:43:12 GMT -5
That's great!
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Post by p51 on Oct 22, 2007 21:55:24 GMT -5
My previous post was NOT a rationalle for using hi-caps, I was just thinking of it in terms of why hi-caps are used so much. I'm also taking into account the awful marksmanship skill levels within a normal airsoft match and explaining why I thought you'd not likely see many folks abandoning them. Maybe I should have made that much more clear. I stand by my contention that airsoft is used much like a MG shooting at an airplane. It's used by far too many like a "hose." P-51 NEVER is a pretty absolute statement. At the typical ranges of an airsoft battle the accuracy and ability to hit what you're aiming at (anything bigger then a pie plate) isn't seriously degraded with an airsoft gun. The effect of foliage and obstructions is significantly impaired but accuracy isn't . I was actually referring to the overall effectiveness of an airsoft gun versus a real firearm. Even real bullets have "drop" to them but at battle ranges up to 300 or so yards (meters, whatever) that were relatively common in the ETO, you could just point and shoot. Unless you are shooting into heavy winds at great ranges, with a real rifle, you can drop someone at three or four times the distance with a battle rifle than you can at the normal close-in ranges of less than 100 yards or do. You just can't do that with an airsoft rifle, as the drop is much more pronounced with a plastic BB in flight. With an airsoft gun, you must often "walk" the BB's into a target at ranges beyond a hundred feet or so, even in the open. I've been able to step out of the way of BB's coming at me at pretty long ranges. It felt like I was in the movie, "The Matrix" or something, and it wasn't fire from very far away. It doesn't make airsoft wrong, it's just a simple fact of physics. That's why I laugh at the idea of airsoft "snipers," because you just cannot make a shot from much further away than any standard AEG anyway with a "sniper" airsoft rifle. So, the drop in BB's at ranges beyond, say 75-100 feet or so (I must admit to making up those distances, I can't say for sure how far is accurate with an average airsoft gun) makes it necessary to lob a few into a target to get a feel for it. You'd be amazed how many airsofters have no clue how to aim and fire a weapon. P-51 certainly doesn't fall in this category but perhaps doesn't have enough time with an airsoft weapon playing in a game with mag restrictions. That's the only explanation I can come up with as I read your post? Perhaps you're engaging targets beyond the reasonable inertia limits of the guns and don't realize it? That's very common with airsofters as well. Now, point well taken with these points. I have rarely ever used low caps because very few of the matches I have gone to required only mid or hi-caps. In those cases, only a madman carries a third (or less) the ammo than everyone else does! I guess I don't understand, you can't reload/change mags. But you can wind a highcap? Oh, I can reload just fine. Again, I was thinking overall, not actually about myself. Let's face facts, hi-caps are very popular and are NOT likely to go away anytime soon. I also think the issue on how much magazines cost and weight and how much room they take up seems to factor into it as well, but again, that's not me, just what I hear others saying.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Oct 23, 2007 0:31:42 GMT -5
about the hicaps not going away. There is a trend to move to midcaps by promoters in the SE aswell as Battlesim and John Lu not to mention worldwide. Games in the UK regularly use midcap only rules. People are sick of hicap hosefest and pointless MG's LMG's
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Post by Jager.Drü on Oct 23, 2007 0:37:06 GMT -5
P51, thanks for clearing that up. I just wanted to understand better.
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chadwick
Private
91st infantry division, PFC Chadwick
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Post by chadwick on Nov 5, 2007 15:55:04 GMT -5
I have done fine with my MP40, even going up against highcappers. As for Thompson Midcaps, there is a very simple solution. I just put about 100bbs per highcap. sure you may have rattle, but in the heat of battle the highcap rattle is the last thing that will give away your position.
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Nov 5, 2007 19:18:05 GMT -5
We need to get P51 to a well set up game with ammo and mag restrictions and good mission scenarios and away from the paintsoft games he's apparently been going to.
You'll find with the period airsofters there is greater emphasis on authenticity and away from skirmish firepower proliferation. Obviously airsoft guns present numerous challenges to authenticity but most of the events that are well done do what they can to adapt to those shortfalls as effectively as they can and the first big step is to dump Hi Caps. Forget about the typical airsofters they don't find the period events appealing anyway. This a WW2 airsoft board.
Your response about the effect of wind and foliage of course is well taken and I certainly agree with the lunacy of "AIRSOFT SNIPERS" which is comical at best as stated by me in many many posts. Please don't take my responses to your comments as a dig on you because they absolutely aren't .
The biggest thing holding WW2 airsoft back is not the willingness of the folks to do it right but the availability of an affordable variety of period correct weapons and ultimately restrictions on sound and muzzle flash which hopefully will be taken care of with future designs.
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