2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 10, 2008 20:14:03 GMT -5
Uppham was not cowardly at all in my opinion. He was a clerk typist translator. Completely out of his element and thrown in with highly trained and highly motivated RANGERs. He did generally that which was asked of him and was frequently exposed to enemy fire and extreme danger/ His breaking point would naturally be far lower then that of the RANGERs with whom he was linked.
My wife expressed the frustration at his reluctance on the staircase and asked why he froze up. I reminder her of the multiple trips across the road and the simple act of traversing open fields of the unknown as they completed their mission. I asked her where her threshold of service might have ended and her reply was when asked she wouldn't have gone on the mission in the first place. I asked her again to explain just how cowardly he was and it sort of changed her view.
Not everyone is a gung ho, hard charging heroic figure in fact the ones who overcome their terror and fight on are the real heroes. In airsoft the great thing is we get to be the heroic ever aggressive rambos all of us would like to believe we are. The reality is destinctly different. It is generally impossible to predict who will be able to ignore the danger and function and who will not. The vast majority of even elite soldiers falls closer to the example given in Band of Brothers in Private Blye then the general group depicted. For an untrained clerk typist, educated in the liberal arts Uppham did quite well as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Mar 10, 2008 20:27:15 GMT -5
I'm more of a Sgt. Bilko than a hard charger but when I hear someone I had gotten to know even a little just a few feet up stairs from me struggling and eventually dieing I would hope that I had the balls to walk up a few stairs and put a bullet in the back of the SOB I didn't even know trying to kill him in that situation. I could have understood if he would have lost his applesauce and found the nearest crater, nook or crannie and crawled in it while applesauce was hitting the fan outside but to be that close to someone and not even try. "Survivors guilt"....yeah I would hope so.
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YankeeDiv26
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on Mar 10, 2008 20:54:35 GMT -5
Excellent point 2nd bat. I should have been more clear with my wording. I meant to use cowardness (for lack of a better word) as a comparison word to bravery and it came out sounding I was calling uppham an all out coward. Frankly, I don't see myself as someone who can truly judge and appreciate whether or not someone like Uppham was a coward seeing how I'm someone with 0 combat experience and hopefully will remain that way. There are guys that seem like rambo that turn tail as soon as the first round goes off and there are the least capable looking guys that earn the Medal of Honor. Most people don't seem to have a D@mn clue about combat unless they are a combat veteran and make far too many assumptions.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 10, 2008 22:03:59 GMT -5
When people hit the breaking point it seldom comes in a way that makes much sense as to the timing. Soldiers who have performed brilliantly during incredibly intense attacks or situations often broke during a relatively subtle event. In the real world men suffering the type of breakdown Uppham had would be unlikely to be functional even days or weeks after their event.
My father told of a battle hardened officer who had survived the harsh conditions of the Italian campaign and received numerous decorations for bravery. During a break in the action when his unit was called off the line, a mule was struck by a vehicle and had to be put down. He had no relationship with the mule and was completely pedestrian to the event other then being in the vicinity when it occured. For some unexplained reason and with no advance indication that he was at, or near the breaking point he lost it and was virtually catatonic for several months and had to be evacuated to the states. He said it was very much like the movie 12 o'clock high as the fellow seemed unwavering and completely unflappable up to that moment. How one acts or reacts to trauma are incredibly unpredictable.
I wonder how many truly heroic individuals had their records besmerched by cracking over seemingly minor stimulus away from the field of action. I think everyone in the audience during SPR was frustrated by Upphams inaction at that moment and again believe Speilberg deliberately created the scene to parallel the pronounced inaction of the west during European jewries desperate need. Thankfully in the movei and in the second world war we had our opportunity for redemtion and we rose to the occassion in spite of being ill prepared and not naturally the type to do so.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Mar 10, 2008 22:49:03 GMT -5
Hmm interesting John...Perhaps my frustration and anger is also partially born of not truly knowing how I myself would react. Perhaps a reaction to a fear that even though I may have high ideals I might react in exactly the same way...one never knows I suppose.
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Post by ivymp4 on Mar 10, 2008 23:56:43 GMT -5
Did any one notice that Jacksons rifle goes from a 1903A4 to a M1941 USMC snipers rifle mid way into the movie.
Cody
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Seff
Private
.30-06 - Turning Cover into Concealment since 1906
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Post by Seff on Mar 11, 2008 18:18:13 GMT -5
Did any one notice that Jacksons rifle goes from a 1903A4 to a M1941 USMC snipers rifle mid way into the movie. Cody You'll have to find comparison shots for that one
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Post by p51 on Mar 11, 2008 21:08:10 GMT -5
What about all the uniforms and stuff, do they sell alot of it? Yep, they sold everything. I've been told there were seven 40 foot CONEX boxes filled to the roof with the uniforms and equipment and a lot of cast plastic guns. Several vendors were selling this stuff all over the place in 1997 and 98 at bargain basement prices. I have a M-41, two gas mask bags, an HBY set, bayonet and helmet (helmet and jacket still had the Ranger insignia on them as well) from at the front, which sold a great deal of it in 98 and 99. It all went very quick, though. Hmm interesting John...Perhaps my frustration and anger is also partially born of not truly knowing how I myself would react. Perhaps a reaction to a fear that even though I may have high ideals I might react in exactly the same way...one never knows I suppose. Hey, at least you're honest with yourself on that point. Most people aren't. No shame at all in saying you can't relate to this, none at all! John makes a better point than I could. I've sene people do amazing things when the "moment" came to them. I've also seen blustering people turn into sniveling cowards. Think of all the people you all know who talk a lot of smack but you know they'd never throw down on someone even in a fist fight. Now, multiply those stakes a thousand fold. Most REAL heroes are people who, if asked ahead of time, their friends would say, "You mean, that guy is going to win a Medal of Honor? Yeah, right!" ...and another thing. I've met plenty of peopel who have been awarded MoHs and have done phenomenal things in combat. NOT ONE of them considers himself a 'hero'.
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Post by 5thrangerinfantry on Mar 18, 2008 8:07:39 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the beach scene is of only the first wave of rangers. That may explain the bodies (or more appropiately lack there of) since it's supposed to be a scene of only the first few minutes of the seaborne invasion. That first wave of Rangers would have been the 2nd wave to hit the beach - 16th/1st ID and the 116th/29th ID landed on Omaha before the Rangers did. The movei had C Co, 2nd rangers landing on Omaha. C Co. 2nd Rangers landed at Point De La Piercee. A & B Co. landed on Omaha with the 5th Rangers, but I dont think it was the part of Omaha depicted in the film.
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Post by 5thrangerinfantry on Mar 18, 2008 8:15:25 GMT -5
It is however Steamboat Willie who kills Capt Miller yes? Obviously I'll have to watch the movie again. What explanation do you have for this SS soldier not killing Oppham on the stairs? I still suggest that the lack of bodies or blood up at the landing is a major continuity mistake The lack of bodies is a continuity mistake, though they may have done it on purpose - I dont think there was much room at the top of the stairs.... As far as the SS guy not even bothering with Opham, I remember reading in Bidermann's "In Deadly Combat" that they would allow Russian prisoners to pass (unarmed and unescorted) through their lines on the way to the next unit back to be 'taken into custody' so to speak. His explaination was that they were no longer deemed a threat and they expected the surrendering Russians to behave honorably....until some of them smuggled weapons through the lines and then attacked the Germans from the rear....
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Post by phantom12321 on Apr 29, 2008 20:25:12 GMT -5
you sure it was a different guy? I thought that was the irony of their mercy..... must go watch it again and check IMDB
BTW, Longest Day, Sands of Iwo Jima, Donovan's reef, They Were Expendable, In Harms Way, Operation Pacific, Wings of Eagles, Flying Tigers, Flying Leathernecks, and Back to Bataan are ALL WAY WAY more historically correct,
simply because John Wayne won WWII single handed despite what your history books, just took him awhile, like till 1973 or that time.
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Post by 5thrangerinfantry on Apr 30, 2008 6:49:56 GMT -5
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Apr 30, 2008 6:58:13 GMT -5
I always thought in mind mind and SPR, whats up with the Germans having shaved heads. About the Longest Day I thought it was a pretty good movie. The one thing I really hate as far as authenticity goes is the Americans uniforms. They are all wearing green uniforms and a lot of them have M43s on even the Paratroopers. I believe paratroopers didn't get M43's till Market Garden.
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click
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Post by click on Apr 30, 2008 8:55:55 GMT -5
I always thought in mind mind and SPR, whats up with the Germans having shaved heads. About the Longest Day I thought it was a pretty good movie. The one thing I really hate as far as authenticity goes is the Americans uniforms. They are all wearing green uniforms and a lot of them have M43s on even the Paratroopers. I believe paratroopers didn't get M43's till Market Garden. Yeah, that is a good movie to show the magnitude of Operation Overlord but not a very good one as far as authennticity goes, at least with the Americans. Did you know that the landing was actually just a US Marine exercise that they filmed. that is why you see some things that aren't quite right. Click
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Post by 5thrangerinfantry on Apr 30, 2008 11:50:46 GMT -5
I always thought in mind mind and SPR, whats up with the Germans having shaved heads. About the Longest Day I thought it was a pretty good movie. The one thing I really hate as far as authenticity goes is the Americans uniforms. They are all wearing green uniforms and a lot of them have M43s on even the Paratroopers. I believe paratroopers didn't get M43's till Market Garden. The shaved heads was a speilberg thing - wanting to associate the nazi's with modern skinheads. 43 uniforms werent in northern europe until sometime during the brittany campaign - around September. There were several mistakes for the british as well.
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YankeeDiv26
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on Apr 30, 2008 14:02:49 GMT -5
There are a million and one things wrong with the old war movies, but I watch them for the plot and nostalgia rather than to check what kind of helmet nets they're wearing or whatnot. It's kind of like an old car that you've driven forever, things aren't necessarily the way they were way back when, but you still love it to death anyways.
<YD>
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Medic
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Post by Medic on Apr 30, 2008 14:04:23 GMT -5
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Post by 5thrangerinfantry on May 1, 2008 6:55:45 GMT -5
supposedly the boots are either black or black painted brown, but I havent heard any proof of it. The problem is, that the color of the film is so de-saturated that you cant tell the original color of anything. They could easily be a dark brown - the correct brown that has been polished with cordovan.
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Post by Pvt. Russell on May 15, 2008 15:05:31 GMT -5
also how did Pvt Ryan know Capt. miller was a school teacher when ryan wasn't in the scene when miller revealed himself as a school teacher?
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Medic
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Post by Medic on May 15, 2008 19:04:27 GMT -5
I think Reiben or Mellish told him. Wayde was my favorite, I hated to see him die. He was a good guy, he was pretty brave brave too. It's takes rocks to flip off a guy with an MG-42 when you have no weapon
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jmhpa
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Post by jmhpa on May 15, 2008 21:40:45 GMT -5
I always thought in mind mind and SPR, whats up with the Germans having shaved heads. About the Longest Day I thought it was a pretty good movie. The one thing I really hate as far as authenticity goes is the Americans uniforms. They are all wearing green uniforms and a lot of them have M43s on even the Paratroopers. I believe paratroopers didn't get M43's till Market Garden. Some other things that are wrong are: EVERYONE HAS A HAVERSACK(even the paratroopers) EVERYONE HAS A TOMMY GUN(well, most people anyway) and even though they have thompsons, EVERYONE HAS A CARTRIDGE BELT...
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Post by p51 on May 15, 2008 22:31:52 GMT -5
I've seen photos from the set, have a pair of boots used in the film and have talked with people who worked on the film as well as the people from 'At The Front' who bought all the stuff afterward. All boots that should have been brown were brown. They were all 'weathered' so much and are wet in many scenes, looking almost black in some points in the film.
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YankeeDiv26
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on May 15, 2008 22:36:19 GMT -5
Well I think that settles it, thanks very much P51.
Black looking jump boots that are DEFINITELY brown happens outside of hollywood too. Just ask Jack (Nimlas) and he can explain first hand.
<YD>
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Post by 2ndranger on May 15, 2008 22:41:54 GMT -5
Wait the germans didnt shave their heads?? *embarassingly hides shaver* ;D Now why send a captain...to do a Sergeants Job? Thats all I ask... Franz
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YankeeDiv26
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on May 15, 2008 22:53:35 GMT -5
Wait the germans didnt shave their heads?? *embarassingly hides shaver* ;D Now why send a captain...to do a Sergeants Job? Thats all I ask... Franz Well it was clearly because Tom Hanks was promoted after being an enlisted man in Forest Gump. Duh! <YD>
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Post by 5thrangerinfantry on May 16, 2008 7:10:21 GMT -5
Some other things that are wrong are: EVERYONE HAS A HAVERSACK(even the paratroopers) EVERYONE HAS A TOMMY GUN(well, most people anyway) and even though they have thompsons, EVERYONE HAS A CARTRIDGE BELT... 1 - not everyone has a haver. I didnt notice the paras, but I know that miller and melish are wearing assault vests. Mostly havers with a few assault vests is correct. I'll have to watch it again for the other guys.... 2 - Most guys are carrying M1's form what I remember. I only remember 4 or 5 tommy guns. 3 - Tommy's with cartridge belt? That is actually correct.
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Post by Bull on May 16, 2008 11:09:43 GMT -5
I think jmhpa is referring to The Longest Day. Everyone in that movie did have a haversack haha.
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Post by 5thrangerinfantry on May 21, 2008 6:42:56 GMT -5
I think jmhpa is referring to The Longest Day. Everyone in that movie did have a haversack haha. I'll have to rewatch that one then ;D Its a classic so I'll enjoy it.... #3 is still right though....
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