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Post by Guinness on Jan 25, 2006 23:51:17 GMT -5
Schmitty, 2ndBat, So I have begun to sow the seeds of inspiration among my group here by sharing the Sarco site with them and the M1919A4 parts kits- We have begun thinking seriously about this, so I have a couple questions to see how much thought you have put into John's A6 so far.....and to help us along  -What gearbox are you thinking of using? I can't find any 'drop in' m249 box at any of the places I know, WGC, DEN Trinity, RedWolf- -I think I remember John took the original steel barrel out to save weight? and was going to just use a painted PVC inner barrel inside the cooling barrel to hold the BB barrel in? Am I remembering that right? -If I remember John's didn't have the cocking handle right? have you thought about how you were going to mock that up? I hope you stay inspired after your MP40 success and make a moving bolt on the A6! -The parts kits ship w/o the right side plate- I'm thinking that could be made out of a simple sheet of sheet metal, or maybe something thicker like aluminum- but the parts kits come with 'rivets- does your A6 attach just that side plate using the rivets or do those go in both sides? I know yours is all together, but is yours welded or 'riveted' ? We have a member that has a nice new MIG welder to put it together. *Edit*- The guys really want to make this a GBB using the escort gas system from a Sun Project M16- which would allow a regulated Air supply to be placed in the ammo box I'm thinking, and then maybe a charging handle attached to the M16 blow-back mechanism for the visual effect of the bolt moving back and forth. Anyway, That's all I can think of right now Jason- I think we are going to throw all in together and try to get this pulled off, it'd be nice to build them up together and have two M1919's on the fields among the groups! -G |
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Post by schmitty on Jan 26, 2006 11:27:07 GMT -5
I think working together on this project could be benneficial to both of us (or anyone else interested). Gordak made a M1919 AEG some time ago for a customer. I believe he used a PGC gearbox from a TOP M249 and had the battery and ammo feed in an external ammo box? maybe he can add more info. I never used to like the A6 version but now that I have one I can see that it's more practical for airsoft than an A4, mostly because of the bipod and carry handle. The A6 I got from John has an aluminum right side plate, it does not currently have the cut outs for the belt or cocking handle, You can buy an 80% side plate from www.stenparts.com for $75 or just buy some 1/8 to 1/4 metal and cut it out yourself (I wouldn't go thinner than 1/8). You don't need to weld anything back together on a M1919. They are originally riveted together (both sides)and you can buy rivet kits (some parts kits come with new rivets) or just use screws. John's has domed round allen head screws that look a lot like rivets and you can fill in the allen part and nobody would know they weren't rivets. The nice thing about using screws is you can take it apart again if necessary. John's did not have the original barrel. There is a piece of steel pipe flopping around in there but I will probably use aluminum tubing when I get that far into it. I recommend not using a real barrel to save weight and then you can sell the barrel on ebay (should bring $30-50). John's did not have a cocking handle with it but I bought one on ebay for $15. I also bought an original top cover since John's had a home made one that didn't look quite right. I just purchased a Metal gearbox (made by frightened Monkey in japan?) for a Star M249. It is a tank of a gearbox and weighs about 2 pounds by itself. It costs $76 but is just the case, I also bought a Systema motor and full tune up kit, which gives me everything I need except for the piece that goes in the back of the gearbox for the quick change spring feature (I'll just make that myself) If you decide to go AEG I think this is the best method. The Gearbox fits, No TM gearbox's will fit without modification. I have not thought about making the charging handle move like the MP40, That was not my intention originally. I have not figured out how the ammo will feed yet, The easiest method would be to use that ammo box I mentioned earlier that mounts directly on the side, Otherwise the ammo needs to be held internally or travel through a tube from an external ammo box which I think would be very problematic. My Vickers gun holds everything internally (battery and ammo) but being watercooled means you have the whole water jacket. If you go with a GBB system, that would be cool to but I have no experience with gas so wouldn't be much help to you although some of the problems would be the same (ammo feed). Schmitty |
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Post by Guinness on Jan 26, 2006 12:09:03 GMT -5
Thanks brother!
I have an inquiry into Sarco about the "Dummy Gun" m1919a4 they have listed- if it comes 'complete' with the side plate, that may be another way for us to go- I doubt it includes the bolt, etc, as that would be illegal, at least I hope that's the way they do it rather than it being a 'cut-up' dewat product. Anyway if we can just remove the barrel (likely plugged on a dummy gun) and replace with an alum outer barrel, that would be good.
I did see those metal gearboxes on WGC and RedWolf and UN Company yesterday, so I'm sure if we go the AEG route we would use one of those.
Thanks again for your advice- we will continue to get these two going together!
-G
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant 
Posts: 11,813
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jan 26, 2006 16:11:30 GMT -5
I swapped the actual barrel which I didn't want for the A6 carry handle and muzzle horn and some Garand wood for another project. It seemed like a good deal for me since I really didn't want or need the weight of the actual barrel. I screwed in the section of pipe figuring aluminum would defintely be the way to go eventually.
Schmitty you think like I think on the screws as it's nice to be able to readily dissasemble the side plates if needed. I'm not as ambitious as you and wouldn't have filled the screw slots!
Is this STAR metal mech box a commercially available product? Sounds interesting.
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Post by Guinness on Jan 26, 2006 16:24:00 GMT -5
Yes, I found the same box by a couple of different makers on RedWolf, WGC and UN Company- all for around the same $72 bucks- just fill it up with upgrade gears, springs and a motor and 'a hunting we will go! ...Hunting Krauts that is -G |
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Post by schmitty on Jan 27, 2006 12:21:38 GMT -5
John (2nd bat) I think you made a good trade, I would have done the same!!
About the Star metal gearbox: I did some trial fitting last night and here is what I determined. The gears fit great and line up perfect but will need some shimming. The motor fits too tight and will require just a little sanding of the gearbox to be able to slide back and forth properly. A stock TM piston fits perfect but a Systema red piston is too tight, upon measuring both I found to my surrprise the Systema is considerably wider, A little fileing to the piston can easily fix that.
The biggest problem I see is the tappet plate. A ver III Systema (TM copy) is a little short at the front where it meets the nozzle. The only option here is to either find a Star tappet plate (I have not seen these available) or modify the Systema (not too difficult but a hassle).
I will be using a TM AK hop up unit, And I think I will make the ammo feed internal to the reciever. I am going to try and make my own motorized low profile ammo feed mechanism similar to the one that is in my Ultima (Echigoya) Mg-42, Basically a modified RC servo turns a belt (made from an O-ring) that turns a blender type thing that pushes BB's into the hop up. The tension on the belt is set to allow just the right tension on the BB's while allowed to slip as necessary.
Schmitty
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Post by Guinness on Jan 27, 2006 18:44:26 GMT -5
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Post by schmitty on Jan 28, 2006 12:06:11 GMT -5
That would be another albeit more expensive alternative. I don't think you can call it 80% complete though, you still need gears, motor, piston, cyl and for some strange reason just like the PGC mp40 gearbox you get an anti-reversal latch spring but no A-R latch. Total cost of PGC gearbox ~$450.
The Star metal gearbox plus motor, systema full tune up kit, marui AK hop up is ~$300. but may require more tinkering.
Either way you end up with a very similar gearbox
Schmitty
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Post by AirsoftNYGuest on Jan 30, 2006 10:54:26 GMT -5
Schmitty,
Pls e-mail me, I have a similar project in progress and can maybe help you with yours.
-Eric
airsoftny123@hotmail.com (remove 123 to contact)
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Post by schmitty on Jan 30, 2006 12:48:36 GMT -5
Eric I will email you but I encourage you to add your input to this forum so others can benefit from your experience as (hopefully) you can from ours. Are you going gas or electric?
I put the Star gearbox together yesterday as well as a PGC gearbox for the Top MP40. I think it took less time to do the Star gearbox despite having to modify a few things.
Keep in mind these are not failings of the Star gearbox because it is designed to fit the Star parts and I used Systema parts designed for a TM AK47.
As noted before the Systema piston fits too tight and took a fare bit of sanding and filing to fit and move smoothly.
The gearbox required a very small amount of sanding (with 80 grit sandpaper) to allow the motor to move smoothly.
The systema anti reversal latch requires a little modification to clear the gear case (very simple)
The Tappet plate is about 1/8 inch to short at the front. I modified the Systema plate by adapting the front from another plate and reinforcing with metal pins.
The Cyl head is slightly to large in diameter at the front (the part that is outside the cyl) I turned this down in a lathe but you could easily do this by hand with a file.
I had to make a motor pad (also had to make one for the PGC MP40) This is just the round disc that the adjustment screw contacts, very easy to make.
I also had to make the main spring retainer, I have no idea how this looks on a Star gearbox so I just winged it and made it out of aluminum tubing.
Overall I am very pleased with the finished gearbox, It's very solid and looks like it will fit the M1919 perfect.
Any progress on the Guinness front?
Schmitty
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Post by Guinness on Jan 30, 2006 13:23:56 GMT -5
On the 'Guinness' front I must report a fine pint or three were enjoyed this..past...oh......that's not what you meant was it....  Actually this has become a 'team' thing and the rest of the guys are really leaning towards a GBB- I am going to go ahead and purchase the kit this next weekend because my rich uncle has promised to pay back that no-interest loan I let him have last year by Thursday........My rich uncle Sam that is........ ;D So more to come on our efforts and pictures as soon as the parts get here and production swings into full gear! And so Eric.....this thread was for our work on a m1919....what, we aren't as cool as Schmitty or something??  J/k ;D -G |
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Post by Gordak on Jan 30, 2006 13:56:49 GMT -5
man I lost all my .30 cal picts and info in a computer crash,
Br I used the PGC gearbox because it could handle some monster springs, and it was uber easy to swap out springs.
the box slipped right in and connected to a modified systemma hopup.
-Gordak
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Post by schmitty on Jan 31, 2006 12:39:43 GMT -5
Gordak: Was the m1919 you built based on a replica or a parts kit? Did you ever solve the ammo feed problem you mentioned (flexible tube)? If so how?
Guinness: Erik and I had coresponded about other projects before, He did email me with some info on his project and I must say it's most impressive. He asked me not to spill the beans and would rather keep it under his hat until it's finished and ready to present for show and tell. I totally understand, as you may have noticed I don't usually discuss my projects until I'm finished.
Schmitty
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Post by Gordak on Jan 31, 2006 16:55:39 GMT -5
the gun was a pot metal cast of a .30 very similar dimensions tho. i had to shorten the tube until the can was close The feed tube connected in the middle so the gun could be diconected from the box quickly, also the batter was in the box the feed tube and battery cable were hidden by a fake ammo belt. ohyea, respond to airsoftNY, you will be very glad u did  -Gordak |
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Post by vince on Feb 1, 2006 23:49:45 GMT -5
I just recently finished my 1919a4 aeg. It started out as a parts kit from ohio ordnance, and I put what I could together after I got it, to try to get some sort of concept of how much space would be available inside of the receiver. The awnser is: not much. For a regular aeg gearbox that is anyways. All that I had on hand was an ICS mp5 gearbox, and soon it would get the daylights carved out of it so it would fit inside of the receiver.  img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/M79_Grenadier/IMG_0055.jpg(RSP removed exposing gearbox and mount, barrel, and switch assy.) img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/M79_Grenadier/IMG_0059.jpgThe whole gearbox itself sits inside of the receiver upside down, and has a special aluminum mounting block that holds it on top of the cylinder. On the rear of this is another mount designed to hold the trigger and switch assembly (its kind of hard to see in the photos). So much in fact had to be milled off of the bottom of the mp5 gearbox, that it leaves the gears exposed when the top cover is open, and the gears themselves barely clear the bottom of the top cover when its closed. There is also a special motor mount made of aluminum holding the motor onto the back side of the gearbox. I designed the whole gun to take down really easily. I didnt put any rivets into the right side plate, so it cold be removed with ease. I machined the right side plate out of 3/16" plate, and purposley left some slots and holes out, just to make sure that I couldnt actually put the bolt and trigger assembly back in, making it into a machine gun Basically to take it down, you start by taking out the top cover hinge pin, and pulling the two side plates apart. Once you do this, you can remove the whole barrel and trunion assy. The airsoft barrel comes out with it. Then you unscrew the one gearbox mounting screw (on the bottom of the gun where the locking cam bolt goes). After this, you pull out the rear grip, and slide the whole gearbox mounting block out the rear of the weapon. It slides out from under the gearbox, and the gearbox can now be taken out through the front half of the gun. I purposely machined the RSP to such tight tolerances as to hold everything together without rivets. It seems to hold together very rigidly, and when I accidentally dropped the whole gun on my concrete shop floor, it wasnt even phased. The outer barrel is primarily made out of thin walled aluminum tubing, with two flush matching end caps. The front one resembles the real muzzle, and has a bushing inside of it to support the inner barrel. The rear one had to be specially milled out to accept the hopup unit. The hopupunit had to be turned upside down as well, to accomodate feeding from the top. The whole assembly slides into the trunion and front muzzle booster with a precision slip ft.  The only real problem I have encountered is the feeding. I made up a long wound flex tube, but it really took alot to keep it working. Im contemplating some sort of internal resevoir, for more bb capacity. In all, the reason that I went to the great lengths that I did to make this gun like it is, is because I didnt want to modify any of the parts from the real gun. I havent milled, drilled, welded, or modified any of the real 1919a4 parts that I used. I wanted to still keep the option open if I ever wanted to make a semi auto gun! |
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Post by Guinness on Feb 2, 2006 0:01:52 GMT -5
Vince!!! How the heck are ya dude??  Another amazing weapons system brother!!! You and Schmitty really need to put your shingle out and start a 'real' customizing business! Could pay for your Engineering College Anyway, thanks for the pics and the contribution to the Airsoft community! Well done!!! More pics of this lollipops on the field please! ;D *Question- Are you using a charging handle at all or is the rt side closed? -G |
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Post by Gordak on Feb 2, 2006 0:05:31 GMT -5
AMMAZING!!!!!!
hey u could sell those aluminium engine brakets, Ill take 4!!!
-Gordak
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Post by schmitty on Feb 2, 2006 12:30:18 GMT -5
Very nice work indeed. Where do you put the battery? When anyone first looks at an M1919 reciever you would think it would be easy to fit everything in there.....It isn't.
I agree that an internal BB reservoir will work best. I have doubts that having BB's feed from an external flexible tube will ever prove satisfactory. I am working on an internal motorized BB feed system now. I was thinking of cutting the trunion down to allow more internal space for the ammo feed system.
Schmitty
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Post by jonathonbarton on Feb 2, 2006 22:03:24 GMT -5
We're looking at the possibility of manufacturing an "Escort-Style" GBB mechanism that would mount into the original bolt-carrying mechanisms - but I need to understand the workings of a real .30 cal much better before I get an idea of how you'd modify an M-16 style action (gas pressure moves the bolt rearward, and a spring returns it to "battery") into this mechanism...
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Post by Guinness on Feb 2, 2006 22:29:01 GMT -5
well.... The RMFCSA's next event is in April ;D www.rmfcsa.org/The one we usually go to is in May, but both will have .30's for you to shoot and touch and stroke and.....(he said stroke  ) -G |
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Post by schmitty on Feb 22, 2006 2:07:48 GMT -5
Update on Schmittys A6: I have been plugging away on the M1919A6 AEG when I get time between other (non-airsoft) projects. I am very happy with how it is turning out but I am getting bogged down with the small (mostly cosmetic) details. It will not have a moving charging handle like the MP40 AEG, there simply isn't room for it. It will have an internal BB capacity of at least 1000 BB's and will have the option of either using a small internal battery or a larger battery in the ammo box.
Guinness did you purchase a parts kit yet?
Schmitty
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Post by Guinness on Feb 22, 2006 12:55:22 GMT -5
Schmitty, Not yet unfortunately It's stuck in committee However I did purchase the ceramic pads and a new brake master cylinder for my 'other' project......my daily-transport '99 Chevy Tahoe -G |
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Post by Gordak on Feb 22, 2006 14:34:04 GMT -5
Im in the market for a .30 parts kit also,
Lemme know who's the best to buy from.
-Sam
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Post by Guinness on Feb 22, 2006 15:12:18 GMT -5
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Post by AirsoftNYguest on Feb 22, 2006 18:30:24 GMT -5
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Post by Guinness on Feb 22, 2006 20:38:43 GMT -5
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Post by schmitty on Feb 24, 2006 11:37:28 GMT -5
Ohio ordnance may be the best (cheapest) bet for the M1919 parts kit. The things that probably make a good condition $299 parts kit into a $399 excellent condition one are probably the internal parts you won't be using if you make an airsoft gun out of it.
Guinness: Brakes? those aren't realy necessary are they? The trouble with Committee's is it's hard to get everyone to agree, You'll have to make a command decision.
Schmitty
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Post by Guinness on Feb 24, 2006 13:18:58 GMT -5
Thats exactly what I was thinking as well- but the one thing I did see when I did a search on 'm1919 parts kit's' was that some come with the left side plate still attached to the bottom, so that may save some build time. As well I found one that will include a 'dummy' rt side plate for another $100- and again since we are not putting any of the 'guts' in except the trigger mech- I really only need the side plate to have the charging handle opening and rivet holes.
-G
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Post by AirsoftNYguest on Feb 26, 2006 1:11:21 GMT -5
Fellow 1919A4 junkies, Another AEG-based 1919 builder had replied to me in response to a post about my escort 1919 on a Filipino airsoft board. He forwarded a link to a Pbase account of HIS 1919 in progress, and was agreeable to me forwarding the link to you all. His looks quite amazing, and hopefully can provide some inspiration: www.pbase.com/kalbs/1919a4&page=all |
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Post by schmitty on Feb 26, 2006 11:46:53 GMT -5
Wow very cool!! Thanks for posting that. M1919's are coming out of the woodwork now! It looks like there is one built from scratch (is it airsoft?) and an AEG built on a parts kit?
This brings up a question. It looks like his trigger pulls straight out toward the pistol grip. Shouldn't it move in more of an up motion? I hope so because that's how I made mine. I don't have the inner frame so I did not see how the trigger originally felt.
Mine is just about finished, pictures very soon.
Schmitty
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J/k ;D
)