Medic
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I'm 12 not 25!
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Post by Medic on Mar 21, 2008 16:49:08 GMT -5
Being a medic, I would love doing what my idols did in WWII, "save" someone. But I can' figure out how... Some people say there's a card game involved, others use ACE Tape or gauze. Others even think about using Chaplains! Here are my opinions:I don't like the card game idea, because it just doesn't fit. It's kind of inaccurate (like if you were shot in the arm, and your card said dead) I think that we should use gauze when someone is hit in a non-vital spot (if it's vital, he's basically gone.) When your shot NV (non-vital) you call for a medic. He'll put a bandage on your your arm (Not NV spot) and then if we have stretchers, carry you back like that. If no stretchers are present, I had two ideas: wait in the place where you were shot until the firefight calms down, or run! If it was a somewhat-vital place (your nads , arteries, stomach) then get an IV. I can buy replica dessicated human plasma is original glass bottles with IV tubes. Anyway, insert the IV (or pretend) and then wrap a tourniquet and count to 30. Put the bandage on his arm and send him off. [glow=red,2,300]Now I know these are involved rules, but I would memorize these to get on the field and do that![/glow]
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YankeeDiv26
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on Mar 21, 2008 17:55:57 GMT -5
I think medic rules should apply on an event to event basis. What works at one event may fail. I think the "wound card" system is the least flawed of all. A medic or corpsman can simply run up, dig through his bag and grab a card (doesn't look Flaggrantly Wrong), then do some generic thing such as put a bandage on the assigned wound spot, then go about his way. The wound cards should at the very least should say the location of the wound, and how long the victim is incapacitated or dead. It doesn't need to be fancy to be effective.
What your system says is alright, but frankly I think it gives the medic too much power and makes them overly-effective. The medic would automatically "heal" his victim (obviously didn't happen all the time) as well as require 2+ assistants to help them with a casuality. This is all good and fun, but at small scale WWII events I frankly dont think there is a genuine need for medics. 1 medic was typically attatched to a platoon, and I've yet to see an event with platoon strength sides. Another flaw of your system is the use of glass bottles for the IV's. If a bb hits it (a likely possibliity), then you now have to deal with glass shattering near or over someone.
Having medic's can do one of two things, it can add another element to an event or it can overcomplicate things and make the entire process of re-spawning a big headache.
Never heard of chaplains being used. they were very very rarely attatched to the front lines and even less played roles in combat.
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Medic
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I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on Mar 21, 2008 18:08:25 GMT -5
But then anyone could carry wound cards and be "medics". I think we should make use of bandages, what they used. You are right about the IV, I guess I can find an IV Bag then. The 2+ assistants, that is something I never thought about. But then how would we know what happens and why. It would need to get REALLY technical for that, (Basically Med School). So there really isn't a flawless way to approach this. Because in the cards, a guy could all of the sudden stop breathing, go into shock, die from systemic poisoning. But there was one thread about Chaplains, and a person suggested that.
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YankeeDiv26
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on Mar 21, 2008 19:24:19 GMT -5
Couldn't we all carry IV bags and bandages too? Kinda negates your point. The only person to carry the wound cards would be the medic in his aid bag. Have them filled out before an event with various wounds (minor shrapnel, chest wound, arm wound, ect ect.) , proper healing procedures (gauze, IV, ect ect), and the time's they should be incapable. Wrapping a gauze bandage or pretending to stick an IV in someone nomatter how hard you try will not replicate treating a wounded victim closely. "playing doctor" and pretending to stick an IV in someone is nowhere near staring into a gaping wound and having to fix it. In all reality a combat medic would get the necessary clothing off a victim asap (typically by means of scissors), now I dunno about you, but if someone ran up to me after I got twacked by a bb, then started to rip off and/or cut off my uniforms in order to "heal" me, I would not be a happy camper. If you have 10 weeks of your life to devote to army medical school, by all means go for it.
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Post by jimseery on Mar 21, 2008 19:49:23 GMT -5
There were no IV bags during WW2, just bottles. You could get a plastic bottle about the size and shape of a plasma bottle (there most be something out there), drill a hole in the cape and stick some plastic tubing in. I don't think a plastic bb will break one of those old IV bottles but why take the chance. One of the ways we were taught to move wounded in Hospital Corps school, this is back in the dark ages, was to tie the patients wrist together, put them over your head like a horse collar, stradle the patient and start crawling on all fours dragging him along. If you're really interested PM me and I'll try to put some thoughts down on how you can replicate wounded and their treatment.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Mar 21, 2008 20:12:31 GMT -5
Battlesim made pretty great looking replica IV bottles from plastic 1 litter bottels I believe. I would PM Hellmut or 2ndBat and they should be able to help you out. Wound cards have worked quite well for us.
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Medic
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I'm 12 not 25!
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Post by Medic on Mar 22, 2008 7:11:22 GMT -5
So, what YankeeDiv said was to fill the deck with "minor shrapnel, chest wound, arm wound, ect..." So if you are hit in the arm, you could pull a card out and have a chest wound? I know they didn't have IV Bags, I just though I'd take a shot.
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Post by Jager.Drü on Mar 22, 2008 20:48:06 GMT -5
What we do is give out bandge packets. They are folded up card stock with a lable on the front. bandge inside and printed on the inside is what type of wound. L/R leg, L/R arm, Head, Chest, Stomcah. If you get an arm car you wrap the bandge around the arm it says to same with the others. Head, Chest and Stomach are KIA wounds.
Your battle buddy has to wrap your wound with your bandge. Each person is given an X ammout of packets. Once dead you move to the CCP, sit, get issued an new bandge and insert back into the fight.
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Medic
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I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on Mar 23, 2008 7:04:38 GMT -5
Oh, that's easy enough. Cool, too. So, tell me if this is right: The doc gets bandages that have the wound printed on them, and head, chest, and stomach wounds are DOW (Died Of Wounds). Okay, then how many hits can you take (and have bandages for the hits) until you die? Excuse me for the other rant, I thought you meant a deck of cards.
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Post by Jager.Drü on Mar 23, 2008 10:40:53 GMT -5
Once you are out of bandages, say each person gets two. Then you move to the CCP. Every person is issued a bandage. Most of the time people don't want to play medic, as they would rather shoot. Instead of forceing someone to be the medic we just give bandages out to everyone.
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TommyGunner
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Post by TommyGunner on Mar 23, 2008 13:00:06 GMT -5
We might be doing soemthing along those lines at our PTO event. But the cool ting about our event is that being the medic will be a blast. in the PTO medics could carry what ever weapon they wanted/ could get ahold of becuase medics were fair game. In our even medics will also basically double as riflemen too and they will have to use a the system you mentioned above to determine if they are hit or not. Being the medic in our game will probably be the funnest position beucase you get to heal and shoot lol.
TommyGUnner
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Post by CharleyNovember on Mar 23, 2008 13:21:31 GMT -5
I have found a lot of people that enjoy being medic with our rules but it's not a role for everyone. I enjoy doing it for my squad.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 23, 2008 16:38:14 GMT -5
The pre-packaged "bandages" are made to look just like carlisle bandages and they fit perfectly in every players carlisle bandage pouch. The medic typically has spares as well. When a player is hit a fellow player can come up and pull out his bandage and open it up. Each bandage is random and can represent a variety of injuries from minor to KIA. If minor the other player can follow the instructions and treat the player so he is "back in the fight" It might be simply sprinkle some sulfa powder on the afficted area and warp the bandage on it. If it's more severe a medic has to be called and perhaps morhine needs to be administered and plasma hooked up. The player then typically has to be brought back to a pre established aid station where he becomes a replacement. In some games we allow a player who is abulatory can be brought back to the aid station with the aid of a single player (arm in arm carry) A more serious injury requires the arm and arm assistance of two players. The medic and platoon sgt are tasked with insuring that evacuations are done efficiently and it becomes a critical part of a team tactics and teamwork. We have a video showing how they worked as a promo for one of Battlesims events. They generally emply some variation of these rules video.aol.com/video-detail/the-long-winter-battlesim-living-history-event/2510803393?icid=acvsv2
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Post by CharleyNovember on Mar 23, 2008 18:04:07 GMT -5
excellent! that was the video I was thinking of. I really think that looks good and is a useable game mechanic.
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Medic
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I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on Mar 23, 2008 19:05:29 GMT -5
TommyGunner, when I finish my 82nd Imp, I am definitely going to get USN Corpsman impression and join up with you guys! Being a medic is fun and all, but getting to shoot some guys with a carbine would be a helluva good time! Anyway, that was a cool movie. But what about the sulfa? I have never seen them around anywhere. Can I use sugar packets? Just kidding.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 23, 2008 19:30:45 GMT -5
That's what we used! Unlike the video of course the sulfa powder should go on and THEN the bandage but oh well! The bandages were pre-made (which was quite a bit of work as the sponsor made a couple hundred of them) each described the wound and provided the steps required to get the player either back in action or back to the aid station. In this way players only needed to know when you got to the wounded pull out his carlisle, open it up and essentially follow the step by step rules from there.
In combat a soldier is trained that the first step in first aid is to RETURN FIRE. Until your opposition is sufficiently neutralized you can't and shouldn't stop to treat your buddies. The soldier who does get to a wounded soldier always uses THAT soldiers' carlisle bandage and first aid items. Only the medic has certain items like splints and Plasma bottles, aspirators and spare bandages and syringes.
With these rules the medic really has a job to do and plays a critical role on the team. It's theatrical and very cool. We felt it was easier to explain the process in video then in a rules booklet altrough they are always provided as well and Hellmutt always does them up like a period FM which is very cool.
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Medic
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I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on Mar 24, 2008 14:05:45 GMT -5
Okay, that's fine. I'll do that!
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Medic
Sergeant
I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on Mar 24, 2008 15:42:45 GMT -5
By the way, where can I get these?
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Post by Jager.Drü on Mar 24, 2008 17:48:08 GMT -5
Make them.
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Medic
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I'm 12 not 25!
Posts: 1,539
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Post by Medic on Mar 24, 2008 18:06:06 GMT -5
Oh, okay. Well well well, then. Oh man. Can someone tell me the information for each? Like 2nd Bat said, the description of the wound and the steps to take him to the Aid Station or back in action.
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Post by Jager.Drü on Mar 24, 2008 19:38:33 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagination I think we have given you enough info, now you take it and run with it. I swear with the invention of google people can't seem to think for themselves.
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Post by jimseery on Mar 24, 2008 19:59:25 GMT -5
Combat wounds are fairly simple since as I understand it most skirmishers do not use artillary or grenades. Even if you do that does not cmplicate things too much. You're dealing primarily with penetrating wounds to either the extremities, the chest or the abdomen. For this we will consider the neck part of the chest and the head either superficial or fatal. If a medic is handy then his value is in the degree of salvage he can bring to the wounded, i.e.; A non crippeling wound to the extemity could go from un able to fight (arm) to able and un able to move (leg) to able. Chest/abdomial wounds would be a matter of return as re inforcement or delayed or no return. Treatment should be limited to four tailed dressings, morphine, sulfa and plasma. I would limit the calls for morphine and plasma because each treatment would remove the player from the game for at least an extended period. You could always designate some conditions as "critical" demanding the Corpsman's constant care, taking him out of action and puting other wounded at risk from lack of attention. I would suggest the same if a Corpsman took too much time shooting and not enough caring for the wounded. 2nd bat seems to have a good system.
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Post by Capt. Zak on Mar 24, 2008 22:23:15 GMT -5
Bunker Bob & myself came up with some great medic rules here in the midwest. PRoblem is...guys don't wanna follow them. The honor system does not always work.
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Post by Tough Ombre on Mar 26, 2008 1:30:11 GMT -5
what happened to just god ole respawning?? Also for the chaplains, idk where the hell you are saying that chaplains were rarely on the fronts, as in almost every book i read a chaplain is mentioned more then once, even if its just him giving sermon at the lines. I have also read about an 82nd chaplain in Italy that actually shot down a damned Stuka with a BAR he took off of a guy who was taking cover... Though they would be inaccurate for an airsoft game as there are small numbers of guys.
Also... Glass IV bottles bad idea, i know Red remembers what happens when you use glass IV bottles ;-)
I too second/fourth/how ever many people said it before me, that the card system is so far the most fool proof method, its also the method the actual military uses to train their medics in combat situations or last i heard thats what they use when they are playing "Laser Tag" I think you can find a deck of the wound cards that they use some times on different surplus stores and i have seen them on ebay a couple times.
If you want to make a system like this more "unpredictable" and maybe more fun, is you have two decks of cards to choose from persay... and you pick one and its out of the wound deck, telling here the wound is, and then you have to pick from a fate deck, which will tell you the healing time or if they die, etc. etc. A lot of combinations could be made with that, or a lot of different situations, and it could also add time to the rehealing status, hell you could even have one fate card as the enemy captures him and they have to surrender. Just ideas im throwin out here.
Also off topic, but 2ndmar... why would you want to join the USMC unit here in Illinois.... when you said you live in NJ......... -Cary
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Post by Garrick Udet on Mar 26, 2008 11:37:05 GMT -5
Just to chime in here. For our Ostfront Class rules Udo and I toyed with the idea of a Medic class. But ultimately we just settled on giving each class a different number of respawns. But we also created a Commander class that had two revives per skirmish. To successfully revive a fallen comrade, the Commander must get to the spot where the player was eliminated and attach a field dressing prior to that player being 'instantly revived.' The catch here is that the commander only gets one respawn, and after being eliminated, the Commander loses any remaining 'revives.' So it is in the Commander's best interests to rally his troops to secure the area around the fallen player prior to attempting a revive. This is a departure from 'true' medic rules. We haven't tested them out yet. I'm sure my AAR from the April event in Wisconsin will dissect the pros and cons of our class system. For the curious among you, these can be found here: www.ostfrontairsoft.com/class.shtml
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2nd Bat
Master sergeant
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Post by 2nd Bat on Mar 26, 2008 11:55:46 GMT -5
In my experience a good commander should be so busy fighting his element that being tasked with reviving eliminated players seems way too distracting. It certainly elevates his value and encourages him to hold back and not get eliminated but also prevents him from assessing the situation and directing his folks to explout opportunities as they develope. In our events the role of the medic is so critical that the platoon sgt is usually primarily tasked with supporting and directing the medic and the evacuation of the wounded and getting the replacements effectively back into the fight.
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Post by jimseery on Mar 26, 2008 19:38:23 GMT -5
I think the CO having "respawn" ability (that's a really interesting word, you kind of picture the CO swimming up stream) negate medics desire to be a "Doc". To make the Doc's role meaningful to the game his intervention has to have a positive effect on the people he treats. To make the Doc's role meaningful to himself there has to be a purpose and a challange to his actions. If your actions increase the efficiency of your unit it has meaning to you and the game. If your actions force you make decisions on life or death of your teamates it has real meaning for you.
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Post by Capt. Zak on Mar 27, 2008 6:40:51 GMT -5
Cary, guess what happends when you throw 4 glass bottles in a bag and star running around? THEY BREAK! That was Red's bad judgement. Real plasma bottles were glass, they were used throughout the war. The system Bunker Bob & I developed was this: - Player is hit, lies down and calls for medic/sani
- Medic/sani arrives and instructs wounded player to draw a wound card
- Cards are Minor or major wound, and KIA
- Minor wounds require marking the affected area with white masking tape/bandage. The player is not allowed to use that appendage. If legs are affected, another player must help the wounded player walk.
- Major wounds require plazma, basically a way to remove the player from battle for a certain period of time, and to make the medic's role more than tapping up a player. Once the required plazma is administered, the affected area is marked with tape/bandage and that player must be moved off the field BY THE MEDIC. The wounded player can walk but MUST be escorted back to the CP by the medic.
- KIA. Pretty self explanitory. KIA players move off the field with arms raised, helmet marked/tapped and return to CP.
We will use this system at the PTO event. So learn it. Any questions? ;D
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Post by 2ndranger on Mar 27, 2008 13:16:55 GMT -5
That all sounds like a workable system, except the KIA part, I thought we had to stay put "dead" for 5 min? Then respawn cause other wise people walk halfway back to the CP and just join back in the game. Plus I always thought that was more realistic. Also just a quick Q, where does this apply for the Axis? The Axis have never really had a "designated" sani.
Franz
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