Post by sir veilance on Oct 8, 2008 14:53:53 GMT -5
Here is my two Reich Marks on dead rags, medics, respawns, ricochets and gun hits.
I like the idea of Red Dead Rags! Sometimes it is hard to take off a helmet if you have a pair of goggles on, that have an elastic strap, that goes around the helmet, which is how I wear mine. It's hard to get the helmet off without removing eye protection.
As far as medics and respawning goes, I'm not much on medic rules, unless they are HUGE games and very simple rules. Many games I have gone to, the medic rules are different and sometimes confusing!! I think the most realistic way to go would be when someone is hit, they lie down, pull out their dead rag and lie there for five minutes. No calling out "hit", just drop to the ground. That way as in real combat the attacker is not sure if the enemy is dead unless he advances on the position. If the person hit, is in a wide open spot and continuing to be hit he could call out hit and wave the dead rag. But otherwise the mystery of not knowing until you take the position ad's to the intensity and realism of the battle.
If you do use medic rules, I like the "one bandage" rule. You get hit the first time, call medic, the medic ties a white bandage with a red spot around your arm and you are back in, when hit again you go to respawn.
I think timed or group respawning is the best way to go rather than the trickle respawn where one guy comes back by himself. I think it simulates reserve units coming into play. Of course it would depend on the scenario, as far as the length of the scenario and the number of people playing.
As far as gun hits and ricochets go, I think gun hits are sometimes hard to notice, so I like no gun hits, that way there are no arguments over whether the gun was hit or not. And as far as ricochets go, I think they should count. How do you know for sure weather it was a ricochet or not? Ricochets kill in the real worlds so why not in airsoft.
I am fine with medic rules, but only if you have a particularly large field and/or a sufficient number of players, like 50 at the very least. The system I have played and liked the most is one with cards. A medic has to medic you for a minute, then open an envelope to see if you survived or not. If you live you get your "one bandage", and a second hit sends you back to respawn.
Sir veilance, I think the ricochet rule I mentioned is meant to simulate how things would function if it were 'real.' BBs behave differently as we all know. At Thunder last year I was in a bunker and the hostile fire was coming through window, bouncing off the back wall, bouncing off the front wall, and then bouncing off the back wall again before hitting me. I really do not feel someone should be eliminated in such a scenario. Generally a ricochet hitting you from an unnatural angle will have a noticeably softer impact.
Post by Garrick Udet on Oct 8, 2008 15:55:03 GMT -5
As far as ricochets go, I have not been hit by a real bullet, before or after a ricochet so I can't speak from personal experience.
What i have done is shoot real guns and airsoft bbs at the same tagboard target mounted on cardboard tacked to a big log at the same time. Bullets went into the wood, bbs did not. I know I'm playing captain obvious here. Bullets will lodge in obstacles, bbs will not. It is impossible to know in a game situation whether that bb that bounced off something behaved the same way a bullet would have. For that reason I don't call hits that I CLEARLY SAW RICOCHET. If I feel I'm hit without seeing the bb I call it every time. With projectile sports there's always this gray area. Like in paintball you only have to call hit if the ball breaks. You can only simulate so much realism.
www.ostfrontairsoft.com If it has tracks or wheels, I can hit it with the PAK If you aren't going to take the effort to check your spelling, I also won't expect you to take the effort to be offended when I mock your poor spelling. You see that little red line... that means you messed up.
I don't like medic rules mainly because they are fakey. Medics didn't revive people and throw them back into battle. They pumped guys up with drugs, tried to stop the bleeding, and stabilize a patient and up their chances of survival en route to a medical facility. That's not something we really need to simulate, is it?
Post by sir veilance on Oct 8, 2008 16:16:33 GMT -5
My issues with ricochets is that how do you know if it really was a ricochet or another player shooting at you from another angle. Obviously if you are in a closed in bunker and there is no one behind you, you'd know it was a ricochet. Ricochets in real life can happen against almost any material. A bullet can ricochet off trees, walls and even water! Ever see footage of a machine gun shooting tracer? The bullets go all over the place. It all depends on the angle the bullet hits the object. I've read accounts about fighting in the Hurtgen Forest and about how many casualties were caused by friendly fire ricochets.
Post by 9thsshohenstaufen on Oct 9, 2008 8:10:04 GMT -5
Thanks again, guys.
I think, again, for simplicity's sake, I will just go with the "Remove your helmet/hat to signify your dead" approach. Simply, effective, and generally understood. And it will be stressed in the pre-event briefing to all that bare head=out of game.
I think I will forsake the medic rules for now, with the right to possibly introduce them down the road once familiarity is established and to throw some new blood into events. (As you can tell, I hope to hold an annual or bi-annual event at this site if all goes well).
As for weapon hits, I agree, it seems difficult to call, so I will ask players to be honest, and do what they feel is, in their hearts and minds, historically correct. (Yeah, I know, I might be a bit niave here, but I hope to instill in the participants that the event is about FUN first and foremost).
I think the respawn area needs to be able to move and stay within a reasonable distance from the main action. While a static position is easy to rally back around, it may be quite a hike at times from where people get outed, and I fear that folks may just say "Screw it" rather then hiking say 1/4 mile to the spawn point, and then 1/4 mile back to re-join the game. I think assigning someone as a spawn judge/overseer and identifying them as such will hopefully create a situation that is both fair and fluid in relation to where the action is.
Radios are a must, and certainly I see the need for at least 6 of them.
I have only browsed over most of the replies here so forgive me if they are redundent!
I like the idea of when you are hit you lie dead you are out of the scenario! well thats no fun right? What if you are hit 2 minutes into the scenario? There are 2 ways to remedy it first you will have to do your damnest not to get hit and second is to group several scenarios into single objectives throughout the field throughout the day lasting lets say 15-30 minutes. If you have 2 abandoned/ruined structures on your field of play, these can become objectives Allies/Axis occupy it and its surrounding area and it can be attacked, if you are hit you lie dead or wounded your force numbers are lowered giving an advantage to the opposing side. This is of course if you have the player numbers, say 20 on 20. The same can be done with defensive positions throughout the fields, woods fabricated ammo dumps, POW holding positions etc. This will add to the authenticity in 2 important ways....
1. There will be casualties on the field of play adding to the realism of combat 2. Nobody will want to be hit and have to sit out the remainder of the scenario making them much more careful when moving to objectives not walking about like careless cows grazing in a field!
Nothing ruins a blank fire reenactment like a bunch of clowns standing around talking in the middle of a fire fight! These are the same clowns that will crucify you for wearing a pair of tighty whities under your keilhosen 'cause its not authentic but standing around in the middle of a fire fight hey thats OK!
Medic rules are OK if its a 40+ person came
Judges should be present on both sides and in period uniforms and equipment at a ratio of 1 judge per 10 players if there are no medics present the judges should wear red crosses or look like a medic so they can be identified as a judge, this would add to the authenticity. If there are no dedicated judges players from each side could volunteer to be one for each scenario so no one is bogged down with the task.
If it is a 2 day or day and a half authenticity should be enforced in camps and judged by said judges. One of the best parts of "The mignano gap" in Albany in my opinion was the camping in a period bivvy! It should be done at all 2 day events.
Hold the event in mid April or October so weather permits the use of full loadouts.
stuka: well the forum is and should still be useful for updates on guns, creating groups/events and building kits
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