Seff
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Post by Seff on Jun 10, 2009 11:42:48 GMT -5
I envisioned this thread as a place where people can ask for advice about being more correct in their portrayal of the US armed forces of WWII. Too often people get the uniform correct down to the slightest detail, but still carry themselves like flabby 21st century civilians when they wear it.
I'll start the ball with something that's been nagging me - how were infantrymen trained to carry their rifles when in combat, and when not in combat? I usually hold it muzzle down, at a 45 degree angle, but I've wondered if this is Flaggrantly Wrong or not.
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Post by CharleyNovember on Jun 10, 2009 17:12:05 GMT -5
Sounds about right more of a hunting position. The US was made of mostly farmhands pressed service soldiers. Think super non tacti-cool.
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MAS
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Post by MAS on Jun 10, 2009 19:36:29 GMT -5
I bet that guys carryed them the way they wanted
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Jun 10, 2009 19:40:25 GMT -5
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Seff
Private
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Post by Seff on Jun 10, 2009 20:52:37 GMT -5
An M1 doesn't really lend itself very well to that, though, so I think I'm okay in that department.
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Post by Go4Broke on Jun 10, 2009 21:20:36 GMT -5
Holding your M1 from anywhere between "port arms" to down at your waist, as if you were going to fire it from your hip, is pretty accurate for patrolling. Coincidentally I was watching "The Battle of San Pietro" right before I saw this thread. You can see some good close in patrolling from about 23:00-25:00, but really watch it all the way through, because it's friggin amazing! Much of it was shot in actual combat, so you can get a good feel for how GI's carried themselves in battle. www.archive.org/details/battle_of_san_pietro
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Post by waldo on Jun 11, 2009 1:11:44 GMT -5
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Seff
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Post by Seff on Jun 11, 2009 6:34:13 GMT -5
No offense, but half those pictures are bad examples IMO - in the first muzzle up is the only option, in the second they are running on uneven ground, thus using the rifle as a counterbalance, stretched out in front of their bodies. In the third, they are aiming from their hips, and in the fourth they carry it both ways. I will look through my archive of WWII pictures again, to figure this out. EDIT: I found a picture of GI's during training, where they all ran with their rifles like you described, but at pictures of Pointe du Hoc, there was a Ranger who carried his M1 with the muzzle downwards (he had his bayonet attached, so I assume he's relatively green). The predominant way of carrying your rifle does indeed seem to be muzzle upwards, though.
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YankeeDiv26
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Post by YankeeDiv26 on Jun 11, 2009 13:24:28 GMT -5
The Army's way of teaching was to carry your weapon at Port arms when running/maneuvering. If you've ever gone from the running to the prone position the PROPER way, you need to have your weapon at port arms.
When not maneuvering/running, normally the rifle was held at about cartridge-belt height paralell or near paralell (either upward or downward) to the ground. This is a fairly comfortable position that allows you to raise you rifle to the off-hand position quickly, or take a snap shot from the hip if need be.
When in an area that's expecting contact and in a formation (colum, wedge, ect ect) it's important to keep your body "on a swivel" so you can scan the terrain. In a colum with combat intervals per se, you should scan roughly from the man in front of you to the outside of the formation roughly 120 degrees. For me, it's easiest to do this when my rifle is at about cartridge belt height.
Over the course of a few hours out of contact I normally change how I carry my rifle a number of different ways, sometimes with 1 hand and the rifle paralell to the ground, sometimes in the "pheasant hunter" position, sling arms, ect. For me staying in any position for too long becomes a slight discomfort, so saying any one person held their rifle in any 1 position all the time is unlikely.
Also, don't hold it like it's an airsoft gun. IE, think about IF the weapon recoiled when you fire, IF it weighted several pounds more, IF you carried it for hours/days/across europe. Don't hold it like it's only been in your hands for 5 minutes and you're 100% ready for contact.
-Tim
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Jun 11, 2009 18:14:48 GMT -5
You can see many different ways that G.I.s carried the M1 and BAR on patrol on this wartime photo
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Post by blackeagle on Jun 11, 2009 19:04:47 GMT -5
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jul 2, 2010 11:30:29 GMT -5
Good old Sgt Edwards! Nice video clip. The only coaching I would have for SGt Edwards is that only certain elements of the 101st used crickets at Normany and the 82nd didn't have them at all. Other than that, great tutorial. As for how to carry your weapon my recomendation is don't over think this. Many of the shown pictures from earlier (though from the period) were posed pictures hence far more posed and alert than typical. Guys were trained to alternate primary direction of weapons while moving.
What you'll find over time is airsofters will carry their weapons and wear their gear pretty authentically as like their WW2 counterparts they are human. The only tip I would have (and it's already been made here) is to not do the modern finger off the trigger that is commonly taught and back in the day when the weapons were brought up to the shoulder a "spot weld" was taught with the elbow extended outward. )Chiken wings) Modern technique with weapons that don't kick advocates keeping the elbow tucked in to reduce your target signature and a pronounced lean forward. Makes sense today but wasn't what you'd see back in the day. (WW2 or Vietnam)
WW2 weapons were heavy (A Thompson was 11 pounds) a Garand 9 1/2. Ammo is also very heavy something BF reenactors have a better appreciation for. Naturally this weight effected the way weapons were carried and that is sometimes difficult to replicate with airsoft weapons.
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Sgt_Tom
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Jul 3, 2010 8:48:11 GMT -5
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jul 5, 2010 13:42:11 GMT -5
The Thompson weighed over 11 pounds more than two pounds heavier than a Garand. Both were quite heavy compared to an airsoft weapon. This fact and the way they recoiled when fired dictated to a great exstent the way they were carried. The simple fact is they were quite heavy and unless you could find a reasonable comfortable way to lug them around your life would quickly become far more miserable than it was.
Port arms would typically only be seen in posed pictres or when combat was imminent or in fact in progress. More typically the weapon would be casually extended with the muzzle toward the ground slung or draped over the shoulder. About the only significant thing to avoid is the modern day finger off the trigger pose that was not employed back in the day and the elbow tucked down when firing that is currently taught. Back in the day when rifles created a great deal of recoil the elbow was extended outward creating a spot weld. Today the elbow is tucked in to minimize your target. Also during assaults rifles and sub machine guns were often fired from the hip or tucked under the arm pit.
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Jul 5, 2010 14:37:28 GMT -5
Whenever i get a Thompson in my hands it automatically goes in to what i call the "Saunders" carry mode , i think it's from watching COMBAT a lot , plus it's really easy for me to go from just carrying it to firing from the hip that way , takes less than a second to start spraying lead downrange
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