TommyGunner
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Post by TommyGunner on Jul 2, 2009 0:42:44 GMT -5
I know there is already a thread on this subject but I wanted to start an official thread for disscussing the creation of this new type of airsoft play.
There are some questions to be addressed for a first time WW1 event such as...............
What airsoft weapons need/ can to be used?
How nessecary are period impressions and what could be the bare minimum?
Do we have to have trenches or can those come latter?
What advantages do AEG machine guns bring?
Should we have ammo limits?
How many pistols per side are allowed and who can use them?
How do we establish firm enemy and allied lines without use of trenches?
Im just throwing a few out there that are some questions I have been thinking about and here are some answers I came up with but I am interested in your input as well.
What airsoft weapons need/ can to be used?
Personally I think that each player should attend with a bolt action rifle of some type. Im not saying they have to attend with a full replica SMLE Enfield, G98 or M1903 but something along the lines of a BAR-10 or other VSR style bolt action rifle if they cant get a period rifle. After all the goal is to have all players with a bolt action weapon and have realistic fire fights.
How nessecary are period impressions and what could be the bare minimum?
Obviously the ultimate goal would be to own a full WW1 impression from the country of your choosing but we have to think realistically here. Those are expensive and what will give the look of WW1 without breaking the bank and allowing 95% of WW2 airsofters to start WW1 airsoft.
I belive that for Americans a wool uniform with an M1917 or Tommy helmet would be just fine along with an M1923 belt, M28 Haversack and M1910 canteen and carrier (this is what most WW2 americans already have)
The british really dont have to change a thing as they have an impression that while did change alot from WW1-WW2 still looks like a WW1 kit, Minus things like the Bren pouches.
The Germans dont have anything to change as well becuase thier impression looks similar to a WW1 kit, while there are again major differences the look is still similar and passable to start with.
Do we have to have trenches or can those come latter? Having trenches would be amazing, but realistically there are few if any fields with them and to create them are out of reach for most of us. However it is again something to work towards for the future once things pick up. There were however just as many battles in woods and towns as there were trenches and using the standard wooded field or open field would still work very well.
What advantages do AEG machine guns bring?
Suddenly having a single AEG on the field can pin down an entire squad of men and is very essential to WW1 game play. Weapons like the M-14 can be used, or even a simpl Thompson or MP-40 that requires two men to move can work. However there is a guy that builds WW1 AEG airsoft machinguns for $300 that is not killbucket here in Illinois.
Should we have ammo limits?
Ammo limits are essential to WW1 game play, no more than 200rnds per man as each rifle holds 30rnds already.
How many pistols per side are allowed and who can use them?
Very few, and only a commander or squad leader should be able to use them. Even a pistol can hold its own against two guys with bolt action rifles.
How do we establish firm enemy and allied lines without use of trenches?
Taking lengths of twine (jute twine) and interlacing them between trees or poles to create fake barb wire like lines along with small fortified positions creat a formitable defense line that act as the trenches and create an objective to take.
Just some ideas for starter events like the WW1/WW2 event being held in late July early August at my property.
TommyGunner
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Post by tw4449 on Jul 2, 2009 0:56:01 GMT -5
Oh, c'mon, no real barbed wire? ;D
I think what you said could be put down as the rules right now... very well thought out.
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Jul 2, 2009 1:08:59 GMT -5
TG , those rules should work great to get the ball rolling. "Jute Wire" would work great , you can make really intricate entanglements with it and it would require an attacking force to deploy Sappers to break through the Wire while the riflemen give covering fire.
MGs of WWI had much slower ROFs than the latter versions , so an MP40 or a Thompson would fill in the role of one until proper MGs can be built.
Another thing to add would be a mine field on no mans land , this can be reproduced by filling balloons with a 50/50 amount of air and talcum powder , placing them on the ground and covering with dirt .
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TommyGunner
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Post by TommyGunner on Jul 2, 2009 1:25:03 GMT -5
Great ideas Adler, and like you said there are alot of things we can do to fill the gaps from WW1 weapons and equipment to simply get the ball rolling. We all know the destination we would liek to get too and I think these are easily aplicable stepping stones towards that goal.
I love the ballon/ talcum powder idea alot!
TommyGunner
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Sgt_Tom
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Combat!
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Post by Sgt_Tom on Jul 2, 2009 8:01:17 GMT -5
Very well thought out! Sounds like a fantastic Idea. I'd definitely try to show up for one of these depending on where its held.
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Post by partisan on Jul 2, 2009 8:55:42 GMT -5
this sounds like a great idea. great thing that period pistols are availble. did the germans have the po8 during WWI?
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Post by corporalkitten on Jul 2, 2009 10:06:00 GMT -5
But remember: Bolt action WW1 = no scopes! Overall, I love the idea. G98 is a cool gun, and the 1903A1 straight stock is my favorite of the series. Balloons w/ talcum powder is a good idea, and so is the interlace twine thing. Leaning up things like plywood boards or sheet metal on the interlaced twine would provide realistic cover if no trenches are available. It would be interesting to see how the opposing sides use their squads of MG's, riflemen, officers w/ pistols, grenades, and teams to cut the "barbed wire" to gain an advantage or simply advance on their foes.
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Post by Fusilier on Jul 2, 2009 11:28:10 GMT -5
OK, here we go,stitch Nazi shpeil!
First of all,WW2 Brits look NOTHING like WW1 Brits aside from the helmet and rifle. The WW1 tunic was 4 pockets with brass buttons.Web gear, completely different! the only thing that was similar was the canteen.
German. Again, not even close. I have done this impression in WW1 reenacting. the helmet is different,larger, different shape,etc. Tunic. Again, way different. Only 2 lower pockets, brass buttons, shoulderboards were different. Equipment. Different brass belt buckle,brown leather gear,ammo pouches bigger,the breadbag was similar,as was the spade. Gas mask can was much smaller and different. Boots, if worn,were brown.
American. I have this complete impression. Can't use a Brit helmet,texture was different,chinstrap was very different. Web gear, you can get away with using WW2 stuff,as it didn't change much at all. The most common weapon was the M1917 Enfield. 03's a distant second.
As for pistols, Yes,the Germans had the Luger in WW1, hence the '08,which stood for the year it came out 1908. again,in WW1 ONLY officers and machine gunners were issued them.
I personally don't think WW1 AS will take off. AS is mostly a young persons game,and not too many young kids know much,or care much about WW1.Me,i love it! I don't do it nearly as much as I'd like. My view is,if I'm going to do it,I want to see it done correctly, not half ass because somebody wants to DO WW1 without spending the time and effort to do it the way it should. As for the trenches, the WW1 site in Newville took a lot of time and money to build. AS guns cost enough,as does kit,where will the money come to dig these trenches/dugouts? Each WW1 event I go to costs close to $70 just to participate,and that covers the expense of maintaining said trench system.
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tm47
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Post by tm47 on Jul 2, 2009 12:33:42 GMT -5
I think we will need to let people bring impressions like tommygunner described. As far as Mg's using limited ones is important and should be reserved for people with realistic WWI HMG's and LMG's(unless none are available). I think a very important thing is a realistic artillery system as they are responsible for most of the deaths in WWI.
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Post by volkssturm on Jul 2, 2009 12:34:16 GMT -5
Something I've dreamed of doing for a long time is a game based on World War I in East Africa. The commander in German East Africa (now Tanzania), Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck, conducted an amazing defense of the colony, and was, I believe, the last German commander to surrender when the war ended.
The early part of the war consisted largely of German patrols infiltrating through the bush to attack the British railroad to Nairobi and Uganda, and British patrols trying to intercept them. Later, when the British/Imperial forces invaded, there were some set piece battles, but largely it was an extended rearguard action.
Uniforms for a game would be fairly simple. Everybody wore khaki with either pith helmets or wide brimmed hats. ( I've read that Hitler's Brownshirts got their brown shirts by buying up leftover stocks of khaki shirts that had been intended for supplying the African colonies, but were never shipped because of the Allied blockade). Canteens and webbing or leather ammo pouches are pretty much the rest of the kit.
As for terrain to replicate East Africa, being in California I could see some of the brushier foothill areas being suitable. Probably the Southwest and parts of Texas wouldhave the right ambience.
Just throwing this out for discussion.
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TommyGunner
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1st Marine Division, 1942
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Post by TommyGunner on Jul 2, 2009 12:50:05 GMT -5
Fusilier, ya gotta crawl before you can walk. WW2 airsoft started out with guys running around with Ak-47s Mp-5s half complete WW2 kits with nam gear mixed in. So the same can be done for WW1 airsoft with the ultimate goal of all players having period WW1 weapons and uniforms, but ya have to start somewhere.
TommyGunner
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Post by corporalkitten on Jul 2, 2009 15:11:44 GMT -5
Amen TG!
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Post by Fusilier on Jul 2, 2009 16:05:43 GMT -5
I just don't think it will fly IMO. And like I said, I'm a HUGE proponent of WW1, so its not like I'm against it. PLUS, there are limited resources for WW1 repro uniforms and gear,whereas there are 100's of places to get WW2 stuff. Off the top of my head I know of only 4 big makers of WW1 uniforms and gear, Great War Militaria, who are INSANE with their prices! What Price Glory, Schipperfabrik, and AEF Supply.
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Post by CPL. Mills 2nd Rangers on Jul 2, 2009 16:55:37 GMT -5
I'm in agreement Fusilier, If your going to do something do it right. Fusilier, ya gotta crawl before you can walk. WW2 airsoft started out with guys running around with Ak-47s Mp-5s half complete WW2 kits with nam gear mixed in. So the same can be done for WW1 airsoft with the ultimate goal of all players having period WW1 weapons and uniforms, but ya have to start somewhere. TommyGunner umm no, that may have been true when you started out, but, even before I started they had some damn good kits on the field, just check out the pics from 2003 s10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/ww2aa/OLD%20PICTS%202003/pretty damn fine lookin' soldiers out there, not a AK47 in sight, and even the first event I went to there wasn't a AK47 or barely any nam gear, in fact without looking at the pictures I can safely say there wasn't any nam gear. s10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/ww2aa/Sept%2004/The WW2AA started out almost 100% correct, but they had to relax the standards to get more of the airsoft crowed interested in WWII airsoft. It was a mixed blessing, it boosted our numbers but at the cost of having sub par kits on the field. Now I understand that gear/weapons are pricey, so I'd say at least 70% of the members of the WWI group should have at least a 75% correct uniform before a event is even attempted. Nothing is more of a buzz kill to me in the field than seeing non-period weapons/gear, it ruins the experience.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Jul 2, 2009 17:36:43 GMT -5
Well I wish you the best in your WW1 airsoft exploits then becuase we are launching our event with these standards. We have a large group of WW2 blank/ airsoft reenactors that are helping with starting the WW1 scene and this is where we will start. That does not mean you have to attend an event with these standards but we will.
Anyway back to what this thread is about starting WW1 airsoft from the ground up.
Creating a large expanse of fake Jute twine wire obsticles is actually very easy. We will place garden stakes in the ground in the open portion of the field and then interlace them with the twine to create a barbwire no mans land. The onject is simple, to get through to the other side and take the enemys postions. This will be something we put into place at the next WW2 event where we will play several WW1 scenerios to test the concept of WW1 airsoft.
TommyGunner
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Post by Fusilier on Jul 2, 2009 20:13:39 GMT -5
I'm in agreement Fusilier, If your going to do something do it right. Fusilier, ya gotta crawl before you can walk. WW2 airsoft started out with guys running around with Ak-47s Mp-5s half complete WW2 kits with nam gear mixed in. So the same can be done for WW1 airsoft with the ultimate goal of all players having period WW1 weapons and uniforms, but ya have to start somewhere. TommyGunner umm no, that may have been true when you started out, but, even before I started they had some damn good kits on the field, just check out the pics from 2003 s10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/ww2aa/OLD%20PICTS%202003/pretty damn fine lookin' soldiers out there, not a AK47 in sight, and even the first event I went to there wasn't a AK47 or barely any nam gear, in fact without looking at the pictures I can safely say there wasn't any nam gear. s10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/ww2aa/Sept%2004/The WW2AA started out almost 100% correct, but they had to relax the standards to get more of the airsoft crowed interested in WWII airsoft. It was a mixed blessing, it boosted our numbers but at the cost of having sub par kits on the field. Now I understand that gear/weapons are pricey, so I'd say at least 70% of the members of the WWI group should have at least a 75% correct uniform before a event is even attempted. Nothing is more of a buzz kill to me in the field than seeing non-period weapons/gear, it ruins the experience. You Sir, speak the Gospel! I'm with you,seeing a guy with an M14 at a WW2 event just because it KINDA looks like an M1 blows it for me. I started reenacting 20 years ago when there were barely any vendors out there making anything,so we had to make due. TODAYS reenactor/airsofter has really NO excuse not to do it RIGHT! You can buy your entire kit,head to toe at any of a number of vendors. I'll stick to my blank fire WW1 events.I consider them the height of authenticity so far. I'm not knocking you for trying, God bless you,knock yourself out.
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TommyGunner
Staff Sgt.
Hackjob Mauro
1st Marine Division, 1942
Posts: 2,265
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Post by TommyGunner on Jul 2, 2009 20:25:42 GMT -5
Please this is not a stitch Nazi WW1 thread this is a thread to get the ball rolling on WW1 airsoft with what we currently have available and what we have available are people with WW2 kits who simply cant afford to spend several hundred dollars to buy another kit simply to play airsoft.
We all know that whole "dont do it if you cant do it right" but Im not interested in that, Im interested in getting this off the ground.
TommyGunner
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Post by hairy apple on Jul 2, 2009 20:34:42 GMT -5
I'll stick to my blank fire WW1 events.I consider them the height of authenticity so far. I'm not knocking you for trying, God bless you,knock yourself out. Dude, I dont know you and you maybe a nice guy in person, but your posts are nothing but snobby negitive posts pointing out everyone's flaws. Please, let this thread be what it is and don't get all stitch nazi on everyone's thread. I understand you want everyone to be as authentic as they can, however you really are coming off as a snob. After you posted on another thread today pointing out how "wrong" my unit was I looked at you're posts and they are almost all like this. PLEASE, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
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Post by corporalkitten on Jul 2, 2009 20:49:36 GMT -5
I just want to say that I agree with TommyGunner. This is just to start out. I mean seriously?! Do you see a WW1airsoft.com? NO! THAT IS BECAUSE IT IS JUST STARTING, IF IT HAS STARTED AT ALL. He was tying to open up some new doors for people who enjoy this thing. Is that so wrong? If you can't say something in a kind, positive, uplifting, CONSTRUCTIVE way *ahem Fusilier*, then don't post.
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Post by theriseandfall on Jul 2, 2009 20:54:45 GMT -5
I for one think this is a great idea with the proposed rules. I understand the concept of letting some ww2 gear go "unpunished" at first as long as you've achieved the overall look as many players have a hard time getting all their ww2 gear together (raises hand) under a limited disposable income. I would love to attend a WWI event, but wouldn't likely go all out for a 110% authentic WWI kit.
My only suggestion, though i know its a difficult situation, would be to somehow find a way to work in trench warfare. Granted not all WWI battles occurred in trenches however, the big attraction to a WWI event will be that it is a different experience than your average WWII/modern/nam field game. Weapon limitations achieve about half the experience, but i think trenches would be the other half.
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Post by Fusilier on Jul 2, 2009 21:02:36 GMT -5
I'll stick to my blank fire WW1 events.I consider them the height of authenticity so far. I'm not knocking you for trying, God bless you,knock yourself out. Dude, I dont know you and you maybe a nice guy in person, but your posts are nothing but snobby negitive posts pointing out everyone's flaws. Please, let this thread be what it is and don't get all stitch nazi on everyone's thread. I understand you want everyone to be as authentic as they can, however you really are coming off as a snob. After you posted on another thread today pointing out how "wrong" my unit was I looked at you're posts and they are almost all like this. PLEASE, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Hey,just being honest ,that's all. Not being a snob,that's so not me. I'm all about the authenticity, that's all. I thought I was pretty diplomatic about what I wrote. But hey,to each his own they say. And yes,I am a damn nice guy! LOL! Have a Happy 4th everyone!
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Post by hairy apple on Jul 2, 2009 21:09:39 GMT -5
Sorry, I realize I came off a little harsh, I just am saying that as important as being "right" is to me, sometimes there is a place for stuff like this. He's trying to get the idea off the ground and no one is going to go out and drop a grand on a ww1 impression without an idea what it's going to be like. I believe you are a nice guy, I just hate to see people get put down becuase they aren't 100% on there kit yet. I think as long as people are working at it, it's fine. Sorry for the harshness, I probally just was in a funky mood.
TG- LOVE the idea of ww1 airsoft. A few friends and I did a bolt action only game a while ago and it was a kick. WAY differant. Add a lot more people and some history and I can see lots of win in this idea. I wish I didn't live all the way out on the left coast, I would love to get into this.
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Post by volkssturm on Jul 2, 2009 23:20:35 GMT -5
I for one think this is a great idea with the proposed rules. I understand the concept of letting some ww2 gear go "unpunished" at first as long as you've achieved the overall look as many players have a hard time getting all their ww2 gear together (raises hand) under a limited disposable income. I would love to attend a WWI event, but wouldn't likely go all out for a 110% authentic WWI kit. My only suggestion, though i know its a difficult situation, would be to somehow find a way to work in trench warfare. Granted not all WWI battles occurred in trenches however, the big attraction to a WWI event will be that it is a different experience than your average WWII/modern/nam field game. Weapon limitations achieve about half the experience, but i think trenches would be the other half. Trench warfare would add an interesting component. It would involve some pretty serious CQB. Both sides developed pretty sophisticated plans for building defensible trench systems and tactics for attacking them. But until late in the war, when the Germans brought in the MP18, the weapons would have been bolt action rifles, pistols, shotguns, hand grenades and entrenching tools. A trench raid would end up as a real brawl.
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Post by Fusilier on Jul 3, 2009 0:01:10 GMT -5
I for one think this is a great idea with the proposed rules. I understand the concept of letting some ww2 gear go "unpunished" at first as long as you've achieved the overall look as many players have a hard time getting all their ww2 gear together (raises hand) under a limited disposable income. I would love to attend a WWI event, but wouldn't likely go all out for a 110% authentic WWI kit. My only suggestion, though i know its a difficult situation, would be to somehow find a way to work in trench warfare. Granted not all WWI battles occurred in trenches however, the big attraction to a WWI event will be that it is a different experience than your average WWII/modern/nam field game. Weapon limitations achieve about half the experience, but i think trenches would be the other half. Trench warfare would add an interesting component. It would involve some pretty serious CQB. Both sides developed pretty sophisticated plans for building defensible trench systems and tactics for attacking them. But until late in the war, when the Germans brought in the MP18, the weapons would have been bolt action rifles, pistols, shotguns, hand grenades and entrenching tools. A trench raid would end up as a real brawl. Night trench raids are the applesauce in WW1 reenacting! When I did German me and a couple other guys went over the wire after dark,and got near the Russian Legion trenches,mind you,these guys were all,off the boat,or born in Russia, we could here them speaking Russian,it was the absolute coolest thing ever! Talk about time travel! For all we know,they could've been talking about the NFL or something! Thats the best part of WW1 reenacting When you get in the enemy trenches,thats when the grenades get tossed around,smoke,you get all disoriented...very cool!
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Jul 3, 2009 0:40:25 GMT -5
Trench raids where bloody and with a lot of close hand to hand combat , soldiers on both sides made improvised weapons just for trench raids. The most common was the Trench club , a very primitive weapon that could be as simple as a heavy branch from a fallen tree to a more complex club made of oak with barb wire , nails , spikes and some even had the tops hallowed out and then filled with lead to make them more top heavy My favorite however , and the one i had a replica made of for my Stormtrooper imp, was the German short handle trench pick, this was a very serious weapon for hand to hand combat
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Post by theriseandfall on Jul 3, 2009 1:04:38 GMT -5
I'd have to find a rubber version It would be perfect for my 82nd Infantry impression
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ethan
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Post by ethan on Jul 5, 2009 16:42:12 GMT -5
theriseandfall were the finger holes just for good grippings or were they used as Brass nuckles?
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ethan
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Post by ethan on Jul 5, 2009 16:48:00 GMT -5
And Tommygunner that is very intresting i wish that stuff like trenches could work out without a big budget. or even trenches that hold like 3 guys is fine. like 10 or 12 trnches on a team is good. who is the guy who makes WW1 machine guns? Can you get a link of somesort?
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Post by kilroy9thss on Jul 5, 2009 17:34:15 GMT -5
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Post by Fusilier on Jul 5, 2009 18:18:18 GMT -5
I didn't think they invited SS units to Newville??
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