Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Jul 25, 2009 3:51:33 GMT -5
The world's first submachine gun was not the Bergmann MP18 designed by Hugo Schmeisser , but a little known weapon designed by Major in the Italian Army named Bethel Abiel Revelli and named Villar Perosa. Major Revelli invented the weapon in 1914 , the weapon got it's name from the company that manufactured it starting in 1915 , the company was located in the Province of Turin in Northwest Italy. The Company's name was Officini di Villar Pirosa (OVP). The Villar Perosa was a twin barreled submachine gun that fired the 9mm Glisenti pistol cartridge , wich was an underpowered version of the 9mm Parabellum round. The initial muzzle velocity of the round was 1,350 fps. The barrels were 12 1/2 inches long and the gun had an overall length of 21 inches. Without the twin magazines the the gun weight only 14 pounds . Each magazine held 25 rounds and had an open spine that allowed quick disassembly and made them easy to clean and remove any foreign object. It had a ROF of 300 rounds per minute per barrel, requiring that it be recharged up to twelve times per minute. It was used mainly in the support role up until 1918 when the Beretta Arms Company introduced a modified version of the weapon that made it portable and easier to use . Alpini's manning a Villar Perosa on the Alps The Beretta modified model i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff22/Adler69_photo/VP-SMG.jpg
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MAS
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Post by MAS on Jul 25, 2009 7:20:43 GMT -5
That looks uskess it is a submachine gun the size of a machine gun. It still is a revolition in guns though.
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2nd Bat
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Post by 2nd Bat on Jul 26, 2009 12:59:15 GMT -5
Considering the time it was produced and the relatively low weight. I would hardly consider it useless. Obviously the pistol ammunition created severe limitations but it was after all a sub machine gun.
Cool insight into a obscure weapon. Thanks for sharing Adler.
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Jul 26, 2009 13:15:50 GMT -5
I like sharing all the info i can with this forum . The Villar Perosa was used mainly by Alpini troops in the Alps , the small caliber and light weight made it ideal for the type of combat they saw during the Great War , sometimes the Italian and Austrian positions where just feet from each other and the "trenches" if you can call them that where not like on France , this trenches where on mountains , sometimes the Italians held the High ground sometimes they didn't , if they had to make an assault on Austrian positions that where on above them it was impossible to do so with a full size Machine Gun , so the Villar Perosa was ideal for this type of Warfare.
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Post by volkssturm on Jul 26, 2009 21:24:40 GMT -5
Interesting. That explains a lot about the design. It never seemed to make much sense to me before.
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Post by spitfire740 on Jul 26, 2009 21:50:17 GMT -5
Yay Alpini! Thanks for sharing Adler, I knew about the Villar Perosa but I didnt know too much about it!
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Post by Fusilier on Jul 26, 2009 22:12:59 GMT -5
Yeah,but didn't the Italians basically get their asses handed to them in the Alps? Especially along the Isonzo(sp?). And at Caporetto?
This is also where Rommel fought as a junior officer.
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Jul 26, 2009 22:48:41 GMT -5
Yeah,but didn't the Italians basically get their asses handed to them in the Alps? Especially along the Isonzo(sp?). And at Caporetto? This is also where Rommel fought as a junior officer. Which Battle of Isonzo are you talking about?. There were a total of 12 Isonzo Battles between 1915 and 1917 and they were all even battles the Italians won some and gained ground and then the Austro-Hubgarians won back the lost ground, heavy losses on both sides. The Battle of Caporetto was the Twelfth Battle of the Isonzo and it was the first battle that saw combined Austro-Hungarian and German forces fight together side by side. The only reason the battle was so one sided towards the Austro-Hungarian / German forces was because the Italian commander of the sector ignored the reports coming in that the A-H/G forces where amazing on his weak section of the front and preparing for an attack. The Italian commander was preparing an assault of his own so he took forces away from his weak sector to reinforce the assault , when the A-H/G attack came , they used massive amounts of artillery , both High Explosive shells and Gas shells , right behind the Arty came the Stormtroopers with Flamethrowers (which the Italians had never seen before) and handgrenades , they broke through the Italian lines in minutes and moved into the Italian rear , by the time the Battle was over the Italians had lost 300,000 troops.
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Post by Canning on Aug 1, 2009 19:14:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the share!
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oberst42
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Post by oberst42 on Aug 4, 2009 13:46:18 GMT -5
No, Sturmtruppen tactics were what made the Isonzo battle one sided just like Riga, and the great spring offensives
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Post by courier on Oct 18, 2009 11:26:46 GMT -5
i know the worlds first heavier Machine gun i think was made by a Mainer, and the US Army didnt want it so he sold it to the Germans. his name was Maxim
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petermartin14
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Post by petermartin14 on Nov 4, 2009 20:53:07 GMT -5
wierd lookin jank
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kalbs
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Post by kalbs on Nov 6, 2009 5:30:41 GMT -5
Great post and interesting topic. I can't help look at the gun though and think "Bathroom Fixture", especially with the uniform material hanging in the background (Whick looks like a towel to me)
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Post by hairy apple on Nov 6, 2009 14:52:32 GMT -5
Hum... that'd be pretty cool. Take the front sights off and use the barrels as TP holders...
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Post by m5a11943 on Nov 8, 2009 21:57:15 GMT -5
I appreciate the info and history, but for my money I will stick with the American made iron. That was the thinking of the US back then, and the money was in the names that funded government. Remmington, Colt and Winchester are some of those big names. To me the first machine gun is the famous "Potato Digger" the M1895.
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Nov 9, 2009 16:37:49 GMT -5
I appreciate the info and history, but for my money I will stick with the American made iron. That was the thinking of the US back then, and the money was in the names that funded government. Remmington, Colt and Winchester are some of those big names. To me the first machine gun is the famous "Potato Digger" the M1895. Well my post was about the world's first SUBMACHINE GUN , not the world's first MACHINE GUN , which was actually the Maxim Machine Gun , invented by Hiram S. Maxim in 1884.
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CptJericho
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Post by CptJericho on Nov 9, 2009 19:52:32 GMT -5
actually it was the Gatling gun made my Richard j Gatling used in the 1860's
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Nov 9, 2009 20:47:06 GMT -5
The Gatling gun was a hand operated weapon not a true MACHINE GUN.
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oberst42
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Post by oberst42 on Nov 10, 2009 0:13:45 GMT -5
mp18 was the first true SMG, the villar perossa (mispelled, i know) was more used as a MG usually being mounted on vehicles and whatnot
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kalbs
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Post by kalbs on Nov 10, 2009 19:37:00 GMT -5
Everyone is getting hung up on semantics… get over it
Anyways, I have a WW2 question regarding this gun, was it used at all by the Italians or any other smaller nations during the war?
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Post by volkssturm on Nov 10, 2009 20:42:10 GMT -5
For what it's worth, here's a definition of "submachinegun" www.wordiq.com/definition/Submachine_gun"A submachine gun is a firearm which combines the automatic fire of a machine gun with the ammunition of a pistol, and is between the two in weight and size." Based on that, and no one says you have to accept it, the Villar-Perosa gets the credit for being first. But I think you can't argue that the Bergman was the first practical smg.
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oberst42
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Post by oberst42 on Nov 10, 2009 20:54:57 GMT -5
if you want to get all technical then this wasn't the first either! maxim made a smaller model of his MG in pistol caliber, so there!
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Nov 10, 2009 20:57:11 GMT -5
Everyone is getting hung up on semantics… get over it Anyways, I have a WW2 question regarding this gun, was it used at all by the Italians or any other smaller nations during the war? Well , the Beretta Arm Company took the Villar Perosa in 1917 and made improvements on it by adding a stock to it and making it easier to carry , the new improved Perosa was first introduced in 1918 , after the war Beretta kept working on improvements and by the late '30s they had produced a new Submachine Gun the Beretta M38a , which was used by the Italian and German forces during WWII.
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kalbs
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Post by kalbs on Nov 10, 2009 22:01:38 GMT -5
Not a fan of the 38a (aesthetically) but the 30... now that I like!
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Nov 10, 2009 22:26:28 GMT -5
Not a fan of the 38a (aesthetically) but the 30... now that I like! On the other hand i love the 38a , the Breda 30 is also one of my favorite Italian MGs
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Nov 10, 2009 22:30:41 GMT -5
mp18 was the first true SMG, the villar perossa (mispelled, i know) was more used as a MG usually being mounted on vehicles and whatnot The Beretta Model 1918 was the second submachine gun to enter service in World War I, after the Villar Perosa , beating the German MP18 into service by a couple of months. ;D
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Adler69
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Post by Adler69 on Nov 10, 2009 23:58:01 GMT -5
By the way , in case no one has ever seen a Beretta M18 , here she is
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Post by spitfire740 on Nov 12, 2009 16:36:28 GMT -5
ahhhh breda 30... Perhaps the worst gun of the war :/ And a correction on the 38A. It was used by the Italians, and STOLEN by the Germans
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oberst42
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Post by oberst42 on Nov 12, 2009 19:15:57 GMT -5
NEIN!
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CptJericho
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Post by CptJericho on Nov 12, 2009 21:37:46 GMT -5
Si!
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